Gripe about Toning and AU vs. MS Grading
Proofmorgan
Posts: 761 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have seen time and time again where beautiful toned coins that have "skin" are given an AU58 grade because of the toning breaks on the high points where the coin was stored touching something else. These coins have not been "circulated". On the other hand, coins that are actually circulated are having their toning dipped off so that the wear on their high points blend in with the rest of the coin. Thus, creating many 61-63 examples. I find these coins inferior to coins graded AU58 with "skin" that can give nice color but may mute the luster. As a collector not looking to sell, this doesn't matter as much, but the idea that it's necessary to strip the character and originality off of a coin to get the most return on it appalls me.
On a positive note, the market is starting to realize this and the spread between AU58 and MS62 is getting tighter. Still, I think the TPGs need to recognize that this "skin" or lack of "skin" in the high points does not mean circulation. These coins are at times have higher technical merit than said coins in the low MS grades.
Arguments can be made for strike and die state/variety skewing these results, but I'm hesitant to believe that the graders will stop and research the die variety and die state to judge if they are seeing a weakly struck variety or just wear.
I have posted examples below from CoinFacts in my area of collecting (1803/2 $5 in grades 58-62+):
Thoughts???
Comments
Call them whatever grade or anything you want, I would love to have any one of those coins.
Please enter me in your generous giveaway.
Seriously, I do understand what you are saying. There is something to be said for originality. I concur with what you have said and I would be happy to have an original undisturbed AU58 coin at a lower price. Win-win for us.
EVERY ONE of the coins you posted is "technically" AU. About Uncirculated implies circulation. While that may not be the case here, not one of the coins are in their ORIGINAL MINT STATE CONDITION no matter what they are graded.
That is the problem with loose standards. A coin will be graded CORRECTLY AU one time, and MS-62 the next. Both will probably be market acceptable grades.
MS62 at times used to be for some coins just too nice to slab as AU58 back when dinosaurs roamed the earth during the beginning of third party grading services.
Many back then didn't even bother looking at anything below MS63 to find a true UNC as slabbed MS60/61/62's were all kinda fruity grades.
I am certainly no expert but the only coin above that doesn't look AU to me is the first one, and that's the one that probably is an AU.
the problem you described where the surface that comes into contact with something and doesn't tone/tones differently is common with medals. coin surfaces are usually protected by the rims, not so with the higher relief of many medals. I believe the graders at the major TPG's are familiar with this and can figure it out, plus they have the added bonus of actually having the coins in-hand. that helps a lot.
Luster breaks visible in the field of all 4 coins clearly limit them to AU. There is likely high point wear also visible on examination. That does not in any way indicate the coins are "inferior" - they look like excellent pieces are worth a fair price for what they are -- and not more than that if stuck in falsified holders.
WOW, love the coins, especially the richness of the last one.
Cabinet friction, wear, rub, luster break, etc....... Something moved a few molecules of metal around. The difference might be academic.
A few years ago I noticed that virtually every Peace dollar I looked at in MS65-67 holders showed high point frost/luster disturbances. It's easy enough to see with a 5X loupe, and often with the naked eye. It's a nebulous gray area in my book. Once it gets bad enough, the grade moves. Where exactly is the line? The answer might be different on Thursday than it was on Tuesday.
Beautiful coins. All AU, in my opinion.
Having said that, I have seen numerous times instances where by dipping the toning away, the luster break would become harder to see / less obvious, in which cases the graders can, in error, give the coin an MS designation.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Including + grades, there are 6 grades separating the highest and lowest graded coins in the original group.
The following coins in no particular order: 62+, 63+, 63+, 64. Thoughts on these? Call me crazy, but I see what looks like as much rub as the AU coin I posted. Maybe these have more luster, but would they not still be by definition "circulated"? The value range from AU 58 to MS64 is an upward of 50k spread...
Only 1 coin I have posted so far was AU. I had many more examples of inconsistency when we had access to more True View photos.
I might have a few of these in my "junk box" to give away
Fantastic coins those are my thoughts.
"Grade" coins yourself. Don't depend on someone's paper label.
Each of those coins is graded the way they are by professional numismatists who have the experience to know what they are doing because that's what they are worth. They don't come much better than the bottom coin:
I call coins as this - "Unc enough." While the lighting is different on all the images, the collector who waited for this one got full value for their money.
Good thread.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Interesting thread.... gold coins are always interesting...
The discussion is valid, as are all the opinions... mainly because there are no standards... In the absence of standards, opinions rule....This is why I long ago stopped worrying about a grade on an insert.... Of course, those who sell coins or are concerned about 'investment' (not a good pursuit in the coin world) certainly must pursue that nebulous high number....Cheers, RickO
Don't collect gold. My only complaint re toning is that I've seen toned coins with original skin grade lower than a dipped out coin.
On a less extreme note, I've seen plenty of coins with original toning grade lower than bright white, dipped coins because the latter are flashier coins and are considered to have more eye appeal. This, even though in some series, like a Draped Bust Dollar, a coin with original skin in most grades, is considered to be scarce.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."