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Franklin FBL question
chrisfl
Posts: 27 ✭✭
I sent this into our host and it did not get an FBL and I was fairly confident that it would.( I was incorrect ).
Maybe its me....... but My understanding was that if the lines go unbroken it is considered an FBL. could weakness in the strike play a role?...... I assume the crack does not count 
if there is somebody more familiar with the franklins ,maybe they can share their experiences.
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My understanding is that they are picky about PMD across the bell lines, and I see several. Otherwise it looks like the strike might have qualified.
That coin is FBL all day and all of the night. Not sure what they see.
This is FBL in my opinion.
It's funny because the actual liberty bell doesn't even have full lines.
From Wiki
Collector, occasional seller
The middle line of the top lines disappears just left of the crack.
This is probably the issue. Nick or two, and a perfectly good strike suddenly "fails" to be FBL. And, who says the bell lines are a primary part of the design, anyway!?!
I generally dislike those silly "strike related" grading modifiers. Marketing schemes that got out of hand.
It looks to me as if the PMD disqualified the coin from FBL... Cheers, RickO
so does the real one posted by CHRISH821 should I be penalized for the accurate representation ?
I don't go crazy over them......its just when you think you have a handle on it ....turns out you don't.
thanks all , another day and still learning.
Info from our host @chrisfl
Full Bell Lines
Franklin Half Dollars: MS60 or better. Must exhibit complete, uninterrupted lower lines on the Liberty bell.
https://www.pcgs.com/grades/
What are we seeing across the bottom set of lines? It looks like somebody graffitied it ROC or something like that. Or is just random marks? In any case, that might of been what kicked it out of the FBL category.
LRC Numismatics eBay listings:
http://stores.ebay.com/lrcnumismatics
Thanks for the vid.....good info on both the SLQ and franklin.
It looks like what is being said about the PMD is the most likely cause of no FBL.
I am thinking coin edge contact.
I recently sent in several thinking they all would hit FL, none of them hit, I took a closer look then came the ah ha moment. I don't know what I was thinking because the bottom lines were all jacked up. Yours looked much better so I was only guessing what is wrong.
It is FBL. You got shafted. PCGS is ridiculously tight with the designation lately.
Is that a 63-P?
Perhaps they see all the hits and scrapes across the lines?
We are not going to be able to change the standards (only a TPGS can do that - focus on the bottom set of lines rather than both). However, it would be so simple if we ignored everything except if the lines were complete as on this one.
That coin is FBL all day and all of the night. Not sure what they see.> @Insider2 said:
Please point out all the hit and scrapes across the lines that you think might affect the designation.
I don't like the PMD aspect of FBL, because it's supposed to be about strike and die quality. You can still tell if it's "FBL caliber" despite a few nicks across the lines. But like @Insider2 says, we're not going to change the standard they use.
I like the part in the video where there's 5 different categories of full head. Very educational.
Missing info - what did the coin actually grade? @chrisfl never said. Obviously if it's under MS60 it's not getting FBL regardless, but that part isn't clear here.
Note: I'm not making a joke: If you cannot see them I probably cannot help you. Furthermore, I suggest you only purchase slabbed coins.
However, if a few more members cannot see them either, SAY SO and in the spirit of education I'll (and others here) will pick the coin apart.
THIS COIN ALSO HAS FULL COMPLETE BELL LINES...but it does not.
Remember, keep it complicated stupid. 
The original post is FBL. Anyone who has ever looked at a significant number of PCGS Franklin slabs will know that sometimes they accept PMD and sometimes they don't, with no apparent rhyme or reason.
One other thing that might be affecting the designation is the date/mm. Some are much tougher to get FBL, with the most notorious one being 1953-S.
U.S. Type Set
I see, trolling again.
There are three unabashed opinions already on this post from Franklin experts who know far more than you do about grading FBL Franklins. If you cannot see that, they probably cannot help you.
There is just one problem, if the Franklin Ex-Perts" you refer to are not grading at a TPGS, I guess they are not qualified to comment on why the OP's coin didn't get the designation from that major TPGS! Note that some NON-Franklin "experts" in this thread (like moi
LOL) had no difficulty seeing all the PMD across the BL
One of my colleagues often asks collectors "When was the last time you had your eyes checked?"
Calling me a troll is stupid. Other members pointed out the PMD that you and your "Ex-Perts" cannot see on that coin. Furthermore, I offered to help but I have found it is better to guide someone to the answer than to come out and give it. Rather than a snarky post, it would have been more helpful to all those below your skill level if you would point out the characteristics on the BL that you DO (hopefully ?) SEE so we could discuss them and their cause, severity, and location. Additionally we could have discussed the different "standards" for BL at the 4 major TPGS because that is important to know.
Finally, if you read my posts. The OP's coin has FBL's! Unfortunately, it is excluded from that designation because of OTHER THINGS that I don't personally agree with but you and your Franklin "Ex-Perts" should already know that - right? After all, they are the "Ex-Perts."
I would like to know what specifically would eliminate this coin from full lines. I am not an expert on this subject, not even close, just trying to learn. I have included a pic of this coin with red lines that may be the reason.
Going on the record to state that I am not expert, I also haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently.
I'll go out on a limb and guess that this is an early 50's S mint Franklin. I suppose the light scrape at the left could have DQ'd it, but the lines are still separated. The photo that @Insider2 posted shows very clear damage that connects the bell lines and I don't think it is really comparable to this coin. Yes there is surface damage on the bell lines of this coin but it doesn't look like it bridges the lines.
PCGS only looks for the bottom set of lines to be complete don't they?
Collector, occasional seller
Yes bottom only.
Here is a 62P they rejected a cpl months ago.
This 62 I found at a show graded NGC63FBL. Price was right and I felt it would 64fBL at PCGS. Well I was right about the grade but PCGS says no FBL. Ridiculous.
Well, if nothing else the price of FL has just gone up as they rarer than I thought.
Not a professional here and I also believe it would have hit.
I suggest you get on a search engine and look up FBL as there will be a fuller explanation than you'll get from me. One video is posted in this thread.
A coin has FBL when the lines are full and complete across the bell and up to the crack. For some, there is a tiny bit of wiggle room allowed for strike weakness at the crack for some dates. The images of bell lines in this thread are all full and complete!
Since a coin with FBLs usually commands a premium price. Someone, somewhere (published?) , at sometime BEFORE there was a PCGS or NGC (perhaps the Franklin Half Collectors of America Society
) decided (just as the Mercury Dime and Jefferson nickel collectors have) that any break of any type across the lines "KILLS THE DESIGNATION" which is actually about a coins's strike and not marks. IMHO, that was simply typical ignorance by wanna-be "Ex-Perts" (from a little drip under pressure).
Look, it should be obvious that a strong strike is better than a weak one and the fewer marks anywhere on a coin the better but again, by combining two different legs of the total grading chair (strike/marks) it has lead to nonsense as this when a FBL coin is disqualified because a tiny nick crosses a line. Additionally, some say the mark must be deep enough to touch the incuse part of the line in order to matter. Hope this helps.
Looking at the OP's coin. The 2 large cuts (and several tiny) across the top set of lines would eliminate this coin as a FBL at two major TPGS - even if the bottom set was OK. On this coin, the bell actually has minor damage in the form of two scrapes, the one on the left crosses both sets of bands. There are about five much smaller marks across the bottom set. I cannot tell if the lower right end of the "crescent" hits touches the line. it is a stained and scruffy coin tat probably was graded MS-63 from just the part in the image.
its a 1954-P FS-401 MS64
not too far off......is the 54 in that group?
No offense to our hosts or anybody, but I just kind of give up on this stuff after a while. Below are two PCGS 1954-D MS65 FBL FS-401 and the OP coin. Maybe the situation isn't PMD. Maybe it's coffee or donuts?
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1954-d-50c-bugs-bunny-fs-401-fbl/147873
I know it's not about price, but FL vs non-FL on a 54 doesn't make much difference. This particular coin is a battle not worth pursuing IMO.
Collector, occasional seller
This is an excellent post that demonstrates what all of us can be 100% sure of: We can find under graded, correctly graded, and over graded coins in the slabs of every TPGS. What's that other thing? Buy the coin and not the label.
This has always been a judgement call, as has FH, FB, RD & RB, etc. Go on the open market and buy the PCGS "mistakes"
at PQ or better money and play the game...or resubmit your coin (many times unfortunately) until you get the "correct"
designation or grade...ugh
I think the real problem is that the "Strike Designations" are an All-or-Nothing affair.
A "nice coin" could be graded MS-64, or 65, or 66. And you can even extend that to include + grades. FBL is YES, or NO! No percentage, or degree, or "almosts" involved.
Not that I'm suggesting we need MORE grades! (That would be silly). But it's probably also silly to add 10%, or 50%, or double a coins value based on "just barely" vs. "almost".
Guess that speaks to why the services tend to be hard-@$$es about it?? If you REALLY want FBL, they better be REALLY delivering it?
I had no plans to chase the FBL , I collect not flip . but in my eyes I saw an FBL and I could not understand why it didn't . so it was not a battle I was searching for but rather an education.
and to all that could not provide information to further my education......I will accept cash...
thanks all
kbbpll - I understand your frustration. Some history. Collecting FBL Franklins caught on in the early 1980s, before the TPGs existed. Collectors and dealers who specialized in Franklins and FBL focused moreso on the strike and placed much less emphasis on the hits and marks across the bell lines.
The TPGs did not initiate FBL designations until 1996. At first, they were more in line with the perspective of dealers and collectors at that time. Consistency in grading the FBL designation has been a struggle for the TPGs since they initiated it in 1996. Later they instituted a grading policy where hits and marks on the bell lines should be considered when designating a coin FBL. The interpretation of that grading standard by the TPGs has modulated ever since. I think some Franklin experts, like Georgiacop50, who is been in this market for the duration, would agree with me that the inconsistent grading standards for FBLFranklins over the years has severely damaged their market. All I can say is collect what you like.
Looking at these three pictures, clearly your coin fits into FBL designation, even under any stretch of current standards.
As a side, PCGS does not consider the upper bell lines when designating coins as FBL. So ignore the ignorant comments here that claim otherwise, though I suspect you already knew that. And hope this clears up any confusion created by the ignorant posts on here that blame the current confusion of FBL grading on old-time collectors.
Hope that helps a little.
To clarify, the middle coin in my pic is the @chrisfl coin. It also might be worth clarifying that as far as I know, "upper bell lines" refers to the ones above "Pass And Stow", and "lower bell lines", the ones used for the FBL designation, includes both sets of lines at the bottom. Some people seem to think it's only the very bottom set of lines. The PCGS video posted by @Hemispherical around minute 8:00 makes it pretty clear that it's both sets of lower lines.
I purchased most of my Franklins in the early 70s. Back then, "BU" was the only designation. I'm sure even back then, collectors still realized some BU were better than others, and looked to the bell lines and bell inscriptions in their evaluations. All I saw was "BU", and that was good enough for me. Look at these prices! If I could only go back in time (and had more money).
So the lower lines are the only ones that count??
PCGS: (kind of just text from the video)
https://www.pcgs.com/news/tips-from-the-grading-room-part-4
NGC: (what NGC looks at is clearly circled, doesn't have to be MS!)
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6865/learn-grading-half-dollar/
Interesting quote:
https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/bell-lines-make-big-difference-for-franklins
"Terence Campbell, content writer for Gainesville Coins, Lutz, Fla., said there’s another feature to help determine if the Franklin meets the full bell lines designation.
'In order for it to be full bell lines, you have to have full lines,” he said. “In addition, you have to have the full three wisps of hair on the obverse near Franklin’s ear.' "
That's a new one!
Great comparo 10 posts back KBB, shows perfectly that it is always a crapshoot and unfortunately dependent not on a fixed standard, but instead WHEN a particular coin was submitted and WHO the graders are at that particular time.
Here is a 1957-D PCGS MS65FBL.
One must carefully scrutinize any PCGS FBL designated coin from the era when the slab label included the coin#/series #.
KBB you certainly are entitled to your opinion but I have to go on record as saying you are ABSOLUTELY incorrect because I would not want anyone else trying to decipher the FBL mess to think that your opinion is the correct one.
I doesn't matter what any video says, the PCGS graders only consider the bottom set of 2 lines.
This IS NOT A JUDGEMENT CALL! It is black & white. It is EXACTLY the same thing as AU or MS. Pregnant or not.
The guys running the place (Ex(?)-coin dealers) changed a very simple determination based on written standards into a subjective mess further influenced by a coin's value (if you are knowledgeable enough to know it!)! Nothing is going to change it. The fact that you can send the same coin in several times and its grade will go up and down should tell you something.
@kbbpll
AFAIK, in the beginning, PCGS considered the lower two sets of bands be complete for the designation. Then they CHANGED their standards for FBL. Now, the PCGS graders only consider the bottom set of 2 lines. Anything different in the video is their old way of doing it.
You also quoted this: "In order for it to be full bell lines, you have to have full lines,” he said. “In addition, you have to have the full three wisps of hair on the obverse near Franklin’s ear."
This nonsense is NOT something new...I've been using it as a humorous (inmates running the big house) joke in grading class for decades.
Look, coin weenies who join collector groups based on on a particular series are free to adopt any standards they wish. Take that nonsense of "Net grading" the copper coin heads use. It has no relation to a coin's actual grade. In their grading guide to coppers they state that fact and warn that EAC grading is different from a TPGS opinion.
What we have here is all about strike. Take marks out of it for a minute. No one can argue that the best, fully struck Franklin half will have every tiny detail sharp - including the wisp of hair on the obverse - on both sides. It is the way the perfectionists want it - they make the group's rules so it's fine with me. However, this is just another example of a bunch of confused wannabe's setting grading standards that get into the mainstream as this. IMO, It's stupid when you judge the fullness of strike on one side (FBL) with the fullness of strike on the other (hair wisp). STUPID!!
It's not clear to me what "full bell lines" are supposed to indicate. Is it "superior detail" or something else? What about the obverse on the same coin?
Read the thread. This would make an interesting topic if you ever write about Franklin's.
I've read the thread. It is still not clear.
Multiple variables determine how close to "perfect" the design appears on a coin. Many of those affect both sides, but some are limited to individual dies.
You are making this complicated. The TPGS's have different criteria for FBL. None of them consider the obverse of the coin. Some collectors do. There are many reasons a coin may not have FBL - strike is the main one. Once a coin has FBLs - the lines complete across the bell, things like bag marks and scratches across the FBL can remove that designation. As evidenced here, this is a "standard" which is not always followed. In the real world, the rarity (value) of a particular coin with FBLs has an influence on whether the coin gets that designation - FBL or not.
If grading were made simple, there would be unfortunate consequences for the ruling class. LOL.
PCGS only looks at the bottom set.
Hopefully nobody rages out and quits the forum over this, but PCGS, in their own video, on their own YouTube channel, specifically highlights both of the bottom two bands of bell lines. NGC specifically circles the same bottom TWO bands of bell lines. No offense to anybody, but when somebody says "bottom set" or "bottom set of 2 lines" or whatever, maybe it's time for our host to step up to the plate and tell us EXACTLY what this FBL designation refers to. Circle it for once and for all, on an image of a coin, and define exactly what you're looking at. Note in the image below, the PCGS logo prominently displayed, and the yellow prominent highlights. Again, no offense @georgiacop50, but all anybody has to go on is specifically published stuff on this, and not some secret knowledge about how they maybe really grade stuff.
Disclaimer: I really couldn't care less.
@kbbpll
Apparently, you either missed my post or did not comprehend it...
AFAIK, in the beginning, PCGS considered the lower two sets of bands be complete for the designation. Then they CHANGED their standards for FBL. Now, the PCGS graders only consider the bottom set of 2 lines. Anything different in the video is their old way of doing it."
Thus, NGC and PCGS have different requirements (that are not always followed in practice) for the FBL designation.
The fact that many knowledgeable collectors have a misunderstanding about this is criminal!
I have flagged my post so the Professionals at PCGS can join this thread AND CORRECT ME if I'm posting rubbish. I don't wish to continue to teach falsehoods to my students.
I really hate to pin you down but there is a conflict about what a member saw in the video and what I've been told - that sometime in the past, the company decided to consider just the bottom bands for FBL.
So, please which is correct @PCGS?
A. Just the bottom set of two bands full and complete?
B. Just the bottom set of two bands full and complete with no major imperfections across them?
C. Both double sets of bands.
While we are still on the subject I went through my meager collection of Franklins and picked the best three when considering the bottom two lines. Do you think fbl exists here? Should these take a USPS ride to So Cal.? Keep in mind that even if they did receive fbl the grades may be to low to even matter.
Coin 1
Coin 2
Coin 3