The following response was provided by Steve Feltner, our new Director of Numismatic Education and Outreach. We are thrilled to have Steve joining our team in this position and we can all look forward to his participation here in the future.
"In response to the question, “what is the policy of PCGS with FBL Franklins” we can definitively state that ONLY the bottom set of lines are considered. With this being said, there may have been a debate at the founding of PCGS as to whether we require the upper and lower lines for FBL, however, it has only been the bottom set for decades. As to the requirements of NGC, we cannot with 100% certainly claim to know their requirements.
The bottom set of bell lines must be complete, and free of any major marks, hits, grazes etc that would either blend or break the lines. With that being said, some small marks may be acceptable if it is obvious that the lines are sharp and bold.
I hope this clears up any confusion as to PCGS’s policy and procedure on FBL Franklins"
The following response was provided by Steve Feltner, our new Director of Numismatic Education and Outreach. We are thrilled to have Steve joining our team in this position and we can all look forward to his participation here in the future.
"In response to the question, “what is the policy of PCGS with FBL Franklins” we can definitively state that ONLY the bottom set of lines are considered. With this being said, there may have been a debate at the founding of PCGS as to whether we require the upper and lower lines for FBL, however, it has only been the bottom set for decades. As to the requirements of NGC, we cannot with 100% certainly claim to know their requirements.
The bottom set of bell lines must be complete, and free of any major marks, hits, grazes etc that would either blend or break the lines. With that being said, some small marks may be acceptable if it is obvious that the lines are sharp and bold.
I hope this clears up any confusion as to PCGS’s policy and procedure on FBL Franklins"
Wow, I really appreciate the response. However... define "bottom set" for all of us, if you would please.
Is it this:
Or this?
That seems to me to be the crux of the issue. Thank you!
The only issue is a lack of numismatic education. I'm sorry, that is not true for this issue. I forgot some members posted a video. I'm sure that will be updated in a few months.
There are two sets of bottom bands on the bell. The top set has three raised lines and the bottom set has two.
ONLY the BOTTOM SET is considered by PCGS. Other services have different criteria. A collector needs to make a personal choice. I will not touch a FBL Franklin w/o both the top and bottom set unmarred. I believe the Franklin specialists who seek the "best" might agree.
I am not an expert but I own and have seen 100's of PCGS FBL Franklins. From what I've experienced, the OP's coin should be in a FBL holder. I'm surprised it didn't get it.
@Gemstrike said:
I am not an expert but I own and have seen 100's of PCGS FBL Franklins. From what I've experienced, the OP's coin should be in a FBL holder. I'm surprised it didn't get it.
When a TPGS puts FBL on a Franklin, they increase its value. IMO, the borderline "minor damage" (big, long, scrape) on the bell is the reason this coin will never get FBLs.
Send it in and let us know the result. Perhaps it is so "famous" now that you may get a "break."
Would you believe this evening I'm checking a large group of Franklin half dollars (64's and 65's) from the two top TPGS for up grades. Many are FBL coins! Judging from this small sample I must tell you that everything I formerly believed was incorrect.
While there are non-arguable standards for FBL coins which I will continue to teach, It appears they are not followed in any measurable way. Not even one FBL coin met the published standards even eliminating the top set which one service ignores. While the coins were very nice (I only disagreed with one grade, agreed on most and raised 2 MS-64's and one MS-65) I rejected every FBL coin. I'm first on the double row box so what the other graders will do is unknown at the moment as they went home for the day.
Now, my advice to everyone is to decide how strict you wish to be on the FBL determination. It is best to study as many FBL coins as you can so you learn what is "market acceptable" because It appears the FBL designation has become extremely blurred (as in this discussion) - at least for the common date Franklin's.
As some may be aware, Franklins are a passion, with our without FBL. Aside from varieties submitting coins to TPGS’s is a major hit to my limited budget and cuts into my acquisition funds. Sending a piece to be graded and/or attributed is very serious, so it takes a great deal of confidence in personal standards and skills before committing the fees. After studying many reference, images, and specimens, a skewed consistency seemed to emerge. When it comes to FBL, there are three personal rules that have been ~90% successful for personal FBL designation submissions.
1. The top and bottom set of lines cannot have a “nick” or “scrape” to the full depth of the bell lines.
2. When viewed “head-on” flat in 3x-30w fluorescent light, the bottom set of lines must be complete as intended.
3. Tilting the coin at ~45ᵒ, the upside-down, parallel, and right side up bell line views all must show a full set of bottom lines as intended.
After viewing many (lost count 10 years ago) slabbed Franklins from every TPGS, only a very few that met the above personal rules did NOT get the FBL designation. However, the converse is not applicable. There were hundreds that could not pass the above rules but, nonetheless, were given the FBL designation. Are the above rules too strict? That depends. Nine out of ten is acceptable but with attribution fees considered, 900 out of 1,000 sucks!
After sincerely studying the OP’s excellent high res image, there appear to be three problem areas that, under current standards, might have contributed to the failed FBL designation. No, the coin is not in-hand nor can an angled observation be made. The OP asked and this is the share.
@Gemstrike said:
I am not an expert but I own and have seen 100's of PCGS FBL Franklins. From what I've experienced, the OP's coin should be in a FBL holder. I'm surprised it didn't get it.
When a TPGS puts FBL on a Franklin, they increase its value. IMO, the borderline "minor damage" (big, long, scrape) on the bell is the reason this coin will never get FBLs.
Send it in and let us know the result. Perhaps it is so "famous" now that you may get a "break."
You should know better than to say “never”, when opining on a subject of this nature.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The top and bottom set of lines cannot have a “nick” or “scrape” to the full depth of the bell lines.
When viewed “head-on” flat in 3x-30w fluorescent light, the bottom set of lines must be complete as intended.
Tilting the coin at ~45ᵒ, the upside-down, parallel, and right side up bell line views all must show a full set of bottom lines as intended.**
I changed the lighting to show up from the bottom of the bell....and it looks to show weakness under the coin edge hit.
this does not seem to break the line but combined with the hit itself my explain the lack of FBL . The other two locations do not seem to be an issue......at least not to my eyes.
@Gemstrike said:
I am not an expert but I own and have seen 100's of PCGS FBL Franklins. From what I've experienced, the OP's coin should be in a FBL holder. I'm surprised it didn't get it.
When a TPGS puts FBL on a Franklin, they increase its value. IMO, the borderline "minor damage" (big, long, scrape) on the bell is the reason this coin will never get FBLs.
Send it in and let us know the result. Perhaps it is so "famous" now that you may get a "break."
You should know better than to say “never”, when opining on a subject of this nature.
Never is a bad word. Since it was my opinion, I should have posted: "*never** if I have anything to do with it.
Comments
The meager collection of MS
But, but... they're not CACed!
Smitten with DBLCs.
I like the bottom two.
Hello Everyone,
The following response was provided by Steve Feltner, our new Director of Numismatic Education and Outreach. We are thrilled to have Steve joining our team in this position and we can all look forward to his participation here in the future.
"In response to the question, “what is the policy of PCGS with FBL Franklins” we can definitively state that ONLY the bottom set of lines are considered. With this being said, there may have been a debate at the founding of PCGS as to whether we require the upper and lower lines for FBL, however, it has only been the bottom set for decades. As to the requirements of NGC, we cannot with 100% certainly claim to know their requirements.
The bottom set of bell lines must be complete, and free of any major marks, hits, grazes etc that would either blend or break the lines. With that being said, some small marks may be acceptable if it is obvious that the lines are sharp and bold.
I hope this clears up any confusion as to PCGS’s policy and procedure on FBL Franklins"
Heather Boyd
PCGS Senior Director of Marketing
Wow, I really appreciate the response. However... define "bottom set" for all of us, if you would please.
Is it this:
Or this?
That seems to me to be the crux of the issue. Thank you!
Nice response from PCGS.
" As to the requirements of NGC, we cannot with 100% certainly claim to know their requirements. "
HAHA, you can say THAT again Steve! I don't think there is a single person in all the world that has been able to discern NGC's FBL requirements.
@kbbpll
The only issue is a lack of numismatic education. I'm sorry, that is not true for this issue. I forgot some members posted a video. I'm sure that will be updated in a few months.
There are two sets of bottom bands on the bell. The top set has three raised lines and the bottom set has two.
ONLY the BOTTOM SET is considered by PCGS. Other services have different criteria. A collector needs to make a personal choice. I will not touch a FBL Franklin w/o both the top and bottom set unmarred. I believe the Franklin specialists who seek the "best" might agree.
I am not an expert but I own and have seen 100's of PCGS FBL Franklins. From what I've experienced, the OP's coin should be in a FBL holder. I'm surprised it didn't get it.
When a TPGS puts FBL on a Franklin, they increase its value. IMO, the borderline "minor damage" (big, long, scrape) on the bell is the reason this coin will never get FBLs.
Send it in and let us know the result. Perhaps it is so "famous" now that you may get a "break."
IMPORTANT UPDATE:
Would you believe this evening I'm checking a large group of Franklin half dollars (64's and 65's) from the two top TPGS for up grades. Many are FBL coins! Judging from this small sample I must tell you that everything I formerly believed was incorrect.
While there are non-arguable standards for FBL coins which I will continue to teach, It appears they are not followed in any measurable way. Not even one FBL coin met the published standards even eliminating the top set which one service ignores. While the coins were very nice (I only disagreed with one grade, agreed on most and raised 2 MS-64's and one MS-65) I rejected every FBL coin. I'm first on the double row box so what the other graders will do is unknown at the moment as they went home for the day.
Now, my advice to everyone is to decide how strict you wish to be on the FBL determination. It is best to study as many FBL coins as you can so you learn what is "market acceptable" because It appears the FBL designation has become extremely blurred (as in this discussion) - at least for the common date Franklin's.
As some may be aware, Franklins are a passion, with our without FBL. Aside from varieties submitting coins to TPGS’s is a major hit to my limited budget and cuts into my acquisition funds. Sending a piece to be graded and/or attributed is very serious, so it takes a great deal of confidence in personal standards and skills before committing the fees. After studying many reference, images, and specimens, a skewed consistency seemed to emerge. When it comes to FBL, there are three personal rules that have been ~90% successful for personal FBL designation submissions.
1. The top and bottom set of lines cannot have a “nick” or “scrape” to the full depth of the bell lines.
2. When viewed “head-on” flat in 3x-30w fluorescent light, the bottom set of lines must be complete as intended.
3. Tilting the coin at ~45ᵒ, the upside-down, parallel, and right side up bell line views all must show a full set of bottom lines as intended.
After viewing many (lost count 10 years ago) slabbed Franklins from every TPGS, only a very few that met the above personal rules did NOT get the FBL designation. However, the converse is not applicable. There were hundreds that could not pass the above rules but, nonetheless, were given the FBL designation. Are the above rules too strict? That depends. Nine out of ten is acceptable but with attribution fees considered, 900 out of 1,000 sucks!
After sincerely studying the OP’s excellent high res image, there appear to be three problem areas that, under current standards, might have contributed to the failed FBL designation. No, the coin is not in-hand nor can an angled observation be made. The OP asked and this is the share.
You should know better than to say “never”, when opining on a subject of this nature.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I changed the lighting to show up from the bottom of the bell....and it looks to show weakness under the coin edge hit.
this does not seem to break the line but combined with the hit itself my explain the lack of FBL . The other two locations do not seem to be an issue......at least not to my eyes.
thanks all, for all the good info.
.
@chrisfl
Your objectivity is commendable. Tough “give” but I think you are correct.
Thanks for the post.
Never is a bad word. Since it was my opinion, I should have posted: "*never** if I have anything to do with it.
That's something new? What do you base that belief on?
PS glad to see you like guns too! Is that a backyard range?