PSA/BGS Certification # Database for Altered/Trimmed Cards

Please excuse me if this has already been done, but I was wondering if someone had compiled/consolidated a complete list of all known altered/trimmed card certification numbers (modern and vintage, all sports) for both PSA and BGS? Wouldn't it be great to see a sticky posted to the top of the Forum main page for people to view, update and cross-check with their own cards? This would almost certainly allow for more cards to be uncovered quickly as well.

As it stands, I know this information is available, but I've only found it scattered throughout various threads for the different sports and in some cases across different websites (net54, blowout, collectorsuniverse) (i.e. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14717612&posted=1#post14717612). I'd compile it myself, but I simply don't have enough free time to do so.

Also, I want to say how I appreciative I am to those who have put in the countless hours of their own free time to uncover everything and bring this all to light. As terrible as it is may be for the hobby, it is absolutely necessary if we ever want to clean up this mess and make it increasingly more difficult for the scammers to continue this type of despicable behavior. Thank you to everyone who has contributed in that process.

Comments

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good idea. I would call it suspected as opposed to "known", but getting the information out there would be a giant first step.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • No doubt, someone will work to compile as extensive a list as possible... However, for reasons that should be obvious, you won't see it on this forum.

    DesertIceSports.Com

  • DBesse27DBesse27 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭

    @Desert_Ice_Sports said:
    No doubt, someone will work to compile as extensive a list as possible... However, for reasons that should be obvious, you won't see it on this forum.

    Not obvious to me. Please elaborate.

    Yaz Master Set
    #1 Gino Cappelletti master set
    #1 John Hannah master set

    Also collecting:
    1964 & 68 Venezuelan Topps
    1974 Topps Red Sox
    Patriots team HOFers
    Andre Tippett

  • dmanricodmanrico Posts: 46 ✭✭

    One of the key Blowout members exposing this issue has secured a URL and is working on this.

  • @DBesse27 said:

    @Desert_Ice_Sports said:
    No doubt, someone will work to compile as extensive a list as possible... However, for reasons that should be obvious, you won't see it on this forum.

    Not obvious to me. Please elaborate.

    I wish I could, but for the exact same reasons, I can't do it on this forum... Let's just say that, given what's happened during the past several weeks, PSA's perceived goal here is to minimize the exposure of this scandal, not to expand it.

    DesertIceSports.Com

  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 606 ✭✭

    @dmanrico said:
    One of the key Blowout members exposing this issue has secured a URL and is working on this.

    This is good to know. Any chance you know of this individual's userID on Blowout and could share with me, perhaps via PM if you don't want to do so publicly?

  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 335 mod

    Well put, Dave. Thank you. This is a complex situation, and one that takes time to unravel. We are doing our best to handle the situation and I appreciate everyone's civility.

    Todd Tobias
    PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
    I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.
  • I think you are not being fair in making such a blanket statement like this, nor has anything said about what psa’s goals are so on what basis can any of us comment on that?

    the recent approach by PSA has been to allow quite a bit of discussion about this as long as it stays civil, constructive and factual. They are also asking us to avoid speculating as some of that has a tendency to take on a perception of being fact before anything like it has been decided by those who have the ability to make such decisions.

    It may have not been that way in the past, but I commend PSA for trying to avoid censorship with respect to discussions on what is currently high on many hobby stakeholders’ minds.

    This is a complex situation and there is probably still quite a bit of information to collect and process to determine what is real and what is not. It’s going to take them whatever time it takes them.

    Hopefully they will continue to provide timely updates so that we can all stay comfortable with whatever actions are being taken or contemplated.

    At the risk of taking this discussion over the line, I'll just say this... While there definitely is a great deal of information yet to be uncovered, and some of the information that's out there is false, there is also a tremendous amount of information uncovered that's been proven to be true.

    Please understand, I'm not taking a shot at PSA here... The trimmers and alterers are the ones to blame... But THAT is exactly why I'm not happy with the way PSA has responded (or, more accurately, hasn't responded)... The one statement by Steve Sloan was just a generic, boilerplate response to what's happening... I'd like for PSA to have directly denied the allegations that are floating around (I won't get more specific, but we all know what they are), because I personally believe none of them are true... Unfortunately, in today's society, people tend to believe what they hear, and that doesn't bode well for PSA at the moment.... As someone who makes a living selling PSA graded cards, I'd like to see PSA specifically deny these allegations so the rumors don't get any more out of control than they already are.

    My statement above was simply a nod to the fact that PSA has said very little about the situation, and, given this limited response thus far, doesn't seem to want to elaborate in such a way as the op suggested, especially on their own forum.

    DesertIceSports.Com

  • 70ToppsFanatic70ToppsFanatic Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭✭

    I think that PSA has a diverse set of stakeholders that all would like to see certain things said/done/whatever. The challenge is that the interests of the various stakeholders is not always completely aligned. Saying or doing something that supports some of the interests could actually work against other interests. It takes time to understand how to balance things so as to achieve as close to an optimal outcome as possible.

    I’m involved in consulting work and have been in quite a few executive board rooms all over the world in the past 30 years. Depending on the criticality of the situation, I’ve found that the best approach is the one PSA seems to be taking. This isn’t a life and death situation where Tylenol laced with cyanide needs to be pulled off the shelf everywhere or Boeing 737-max aircraft need to be immediately grounded. That doesn’t mean it isn’t concerning, serious and deserving of a timely response and transparency. But it does mean that officers and the board dont have the kind of pressure to act on incomplete information or partial analysis.

    I see that as a good thing. I don’t make a living selling slabbed cards nor am I a CLTC shareholder. I am just a lifetime hobbyist/collector who enjoys higher-end cards and I have a sizable amount tied up in them that I would like to at least see stay relatively stable.

    The statement that was made may be somewhat “general”, but I view it as a proper initial statement that represents a common denominator that cuts across the many diversified interests that PSA has been trusted to protect without disadvantaging any of those interests.

    I hope we can get an update soon, but I also understand that it’s going to take what seems to be a longer time than I might want in order for things to be properly understood and thought through.

    For what it’s worth, I have not frozen my activities in the hobby. In fact since this situation has become public I have added some very significant cards to my collection and will continue to do so with reasonably strong confidence based on doing proper due diligence in every significant acquisition I make.



    Dave
  • @70ToppsFanatic said:
    I think that PSA has a diverse set of stakeholders that all would like to see certain things said/done/whatever. The challenge is that the interests of the various stakeholders is not always completely aligned. Saying or doing something that supports some of the interests could actually work against other interests. It takes time to understand how to balance things so as to achieve as close to an optimal outcome as possible.

    I completely agree, and I certainly understand the need to gather information and make a proper statement instead of coming out unprepared, with guns blazing... But, the information you're talking about is, in very general terms, the details of who was involved in this, how it happened and the extent to which it took place...What I'm talking about is different.

    In a way, PSA has been a victim of it's own success during the past 5 years... Because, when you run a successful business,
    people tend to get jealous and make assumptions about how you achieved that success... I haven't been in any corporate board rooms, but I attend 25+ major card shows a year, and I talk to a LOT of dealers and collectors about PSA... There have always been rumors and assumptions about how they do business, but never any evidence to back it up... What's been reported recently has given those people fuel to throw on the fire... They're throwing around defamatory, libelous statements, saying 'I told you so', and saying this is going to be the downfall of PSA and the hobby... Of course, virtually nothing they're saying is true, but the point is that a lot of people are believing it... Rumors such as these grow legs very quickly, and at a certain point can be impossible to stop.

    Waiting until the investigation is complete to address specifics about what's happened is wise... But, those rumors have already permeated the hobby to the point where intelligent, well-meaning friends of mine are changing their buying/consigning/grading habits, and, in some cases are actually believing what they're hearing... The nutjob conspiracy theorists will always believe whatever they want to believe, but when good people are believing the rumors, that's a serious problem.

    Addressing the general allegations instead of the specific ones is all I'm asking... I don't see that the one statement released so far did that.

    Thanks to the mod for allowing this discussion.

    DesertIceSports.Com

  • 70ToppsFanatic70ToppsFanatic Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭✭

    As a public company I think PSA has the resources, wherewithal and motivation to deal with unsubstantiated defamatory and libelous statements posted on internet message boards if the feel it is needed.



    Dave
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 23,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Please understand, I'm not taking a shot at PSA here... The trimmers and alterers are the ones to blame... But THAT is exactly why I'm not happy with the way PSA has responded (or, more accurately, hasn't responded)...

    Hiya Brad

    I'm retired and in my field we had to take classes on "risk management."

    In summation: first responses to any "incident" should minimize the appearance of unfounded guilt - and yes - what you called "boiler plate" response is totally appropriate. I thought it was well written.

    How about putting yourself in the shoes of the PSA leadership for a while. And, honestly and fairly, think what you would do.

    My point? How about giving PSA a bit of time to sort this thing out. It's like a sea of sharks and PSA is the fish right now.

    If in a few months you believe PSA didn't live up to your expectation? Let PSA know.

    As I said in another remark - when Joe was president - he was totally approachable and at one point even took the time to call me at my home.

    From my experience - CU is a big corporation but is approachable as if they were the corner candy store.

    Mike



  • "How about putting yourself in the shoes of the PSA leadership for a while. And, honestly and fairly, think what you would do."

    That's exactly what I did... To me, letting the false rumors grow and grow causes harm, while a statement refuting them would help a great deal... This investigation could take months, and who knows what happens after that??

    Just my opinion, but I think I'm not the only one who feels this way.

    DesertIceSports.Com

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Desert_Ice_Sports said:
    "How about putting yourself in the shoes of the PSA leadership for a while. And, honestly and fairly, think what you would do."

    That's exactly what I did... To me, letting the false rumors grow and grow causes harm, while a statement refuting them would help a great deal... This investigation could take months, and who knows what happens after that??

    Just my opinion, but I think I'm not the only one who feels this way.

    Well - to play devils advocate here only...

    What if Steve Sloan of PSA came out and denied something that later turned out to be true?

    How’s that going to look? Better? Or much, much worse?

    There’s quite a few ways to handle this. So far, a statement of awareness and investigation is what we’ve gotten which is pretty significant. The collector with an eye toward socializing online is not the standard. Saying nothing would be easier and we’d be all be eccentric online conspiracy theorists. But thanks to that statement (and obviously the guys at BlowOut), PSA - the only party involved who hasn’t caught a bad case of verbal diarrhea - has acknowledged what has happened and validated these claims to a significant degree.

    That’s worth pointing out.

    If the first statement by PSA is the last, that will be one thing. A quality investigation will take time. No one wants to hear that; we live in a world of instant gratification now so anything that takes time is a real bother. Todd has repeatedly assured us that PSA is working on this.

    That’s worth pointing out.

    Rushing would be foolish and unproductive. If you want the opposite, there’s no other way than to be patient.

    That’s worth pointing out.

    Now, PSA told everyone to return the cards to where you bought them. Seems to me, that is smart. I know I’d thought that was interesting. Because, I mean if some hypothetical seller came back to me with millions of dollars in cards all returned at once due to proven alteration and I was already aware of them? Really? All returned to you? Where’d you get them all? To you? And no one else, huh? Now that’s pretty interesting.

    And worth pointing out.

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest

  • "What if Steve Sloan of PSA came out and denied something that later turned out to be true?"

    That's really an irrelevant question, because I'm saying he should be denying things he knows are NOT true... I wish I could get more specific.

    "So far, a statement of awareness and investigation is what we’ve gotten which is pretty significant."

    I disagree that it's significant... I see it as doing the minimum and stating the obvious.

    " A quality investigation will take time... Todd has repeatedly assured us that PSA is working on this."

    No argument there but, as I stated above, I'm talking about what's already known, not what will be revealed in an investigation.

    "Now, PSA told everyone to return the cards to where you bought them."

    Exactly what they should have done, but doesn't really address my concerns.

    Anyway, I think I've taken this far enough... There's no obviously correct way to handle this, and all I've done is add my two cents, due to my concern for the hobby and my business... I just hope this ends well.

    DesertIceSports.Com

  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 23,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Now, PSA told everyone to return the cards to where you bought them."

    Exactly what they should have done, but doesn't really address my concerns.

    Since you have concerns that you can't divulge here, have you reached out to PSA to have a dialogue?

    Mike



  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 335 mod

    This thread is starting to run in a circular pattern without anything new being introduced. Unfortunately we are not yet at a time when PSA feels they can make their next statement on the situation. The mending process has begun with the request that people return the cards-in-question to the places they were purchased. That's all that can be done at the moment, so there is really no point in furthering this particular discussion until new statements are made. I won't lock this down yet as I really don't like doing that, but I think that this thread has pretty much run it's course if nothing new is added.

    Todd Tobias
    PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
    I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AFLfan said:
    This thread is starting to run in a circular pattern without anything new being introduced. Unfortunately we are not yet at a time when PSA feels they can make their next statement on the situation. The mending process has begun with the request that people return the cards-in-question to the places they were purchased. That's all that can be done at the moment, so there is really no point in furthering this particular discussion until new statements are made. I won't lock this down yet as I really don't like doing that, but I think that this thread has pretty much run it's course if nothing new is added.

    I agree. I was hoping for the creation of some kind of reference list of cards that had been identified as altered or potentially altered.

    Arguing back and forth as to who is to blame is a waste of time.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 23,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @AFLfan said:
    This thread is starting to run in a circular pattern without anything new being introduced. Unfortunately we are not yet at a time when PSA feels they can make their next statement on the situation. The mending process has begun with the request that people return the cards-in-question to the places they were purchased. That's all that can be done at the moment, so there is really no point in furthering this particular discussion until new statements are made. I won't lock this down yet as I really don't like doing that, but I think that this thread has pretty much run it's course if nothing new is added.

    I agree. I was hoping for the creation of some kind of reference list of cards that had been identified as altered or potentially altered.

    Arguing back and forth as to who is to blame is a waste of time.

    +1

    Mike



  • 60sfan60sfan Posts: 303 ✭✭

    How do we know which cards to return if there's no list for us to refer to?

  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 606 ✭✭

    @60sfan said:
    How do we know which cards to return if there's no list for us to refer to?

    I created this thread to go about finding a list that someone may have already compiled, or in the case one didn't exist, to suggest how it may be of benefit to those of us who wish to cross-reference our cards. I did this going on the assumption that PSA/BGS are unlikely to release such a list, leaving it up to us to do so for the good of the community. Much of the discussion that followed has little to nothing to do with this and I apologize if this has created problems.

    If someone wishes to take the time to create such a database/list (which while time consuming, could easily be done by scouring multiple forums (blowout, net54, others), I do hope that they be kind enough to share it with all of us here.

  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 606 ✭✭

    Oh, and if someone wished to undertake such a task, this would be a great place to start: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1299033&page=4

  • DBesse27DBesse27 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭

    @HighGradeLegends said:

    @Stone193 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @AFLfan said:
    This thread is starting to run in a circular pattern without anything new being introduced. Unfortunately we are not yet at a time when PSA feels they can make their next statement on the situation. The mending process has begun with the request that people return the cards-in-question to the places they were purchased. That's all that can be done at the moment, so there is really no point in furthering this particular discussion until new statements are made. I won't lock this down yet as I really don't like doing that, but I think that this thread has pretty much run it's course if nothing new is added.

    I agree. I was hoping for the creation of some kind of reference list of cards that had been identified as altered or potentially altered.

    Arguing back and forth as to who is to blame is a waste of time.

    +1

    THIS

    Yup.

    Yaz Master Set
    #1 Gino Cappelletti master set
    #1 John Hannah master set

    Also collecting:
    1964 & 68 Venezuelan Topps
    1974 Topps Red Sox
    Patriots team HOFers
    Andre Tippett

  • dmanricodmanrico Posts: 46 ✭✭

    @Dragnet said:

    @dmanrico said:
    One of the key Blowout members exposing this issue has secured a URL and is working on this.

    This is good to know. Any chance you know of this individual's userID on Blowout and could share with me, perhaps via PM if you don't want to do so publicly?

    superdan49 is the ID of the Blowout member who has the URL and is creating the database.

  • DragnetDragnet Posts: 606 ✭✭

    @dmanrico said:

    @Dragnet said:

    @dmanrico said:
    One of the key Blowout members exposing this issue has secured a URL and is working on this.

    This is good to know. Any chance you know of this individual's userID on Blowout and could share with me, perhaps via PM if you don't want to do so publicly?

    superdan49 is the ID of the Blowout member who has the URL and is creating the database.

    Thank you for sharing!

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