Fake Chopmarked Trade Dollars From Spain

ChopmarkedTrades

Over the past couple of years, I've noticed a disturbing number of fake chopmarked Trade Dollars originating from Spain. The details on the host coins themselves seem to be much better than what we've seen from Chinese fakes. They seem to often be consigned to reputable auction houses in-country; I purchased one through this method, shown below.

When I originally received this coin, I had suspicions, mostly because of the chops themselves: they were too evenly applied. Conventional chops don't come like that with a high degree of frequency, as chops applied with insufficient force often have a grainy impression. But the less than complete chops on the coin above 'fade' too smoothly. Comparing them to the four or five other coins in the same Spanish auction showed similar application of the marks. I sent the coin into PCGS to get a second opinion, and it holdered as 'AU Details - Cleaned'. So, I thought that I might be wrong, maybe this was just a type of chop I hadn't encountered frequently enough. But I'm convinced that's not the case. In the year and a half since I bought that coin, I've seen several more small groups of chopmarked Trade Dollars of various dates turn up in Spanish auctions, all with this same chop style, often with marks repeated. I still haven't seen any turn up with frequency anywhere else that can't be tied back to Spain.

The reason that I make this post now, is that the coins are turning up again. A series of them were listed on eBay (yes, originating from Spain) by user 'seanedwards' with the same style of mark and repeated chops (note in particular the chop in a cartouche that is shared between the coin above and several of the new listings). I will post the images below for comparison. Please be on the lookout for this chop style.

Namvet69

We all know this is a problem. So the grading services do not validate or cross check chop marks? OCR software should be the solution. IMO. Peace Roy

ricko

Definitely some phony chop marks on those coins.... That swastika is ridiculous....Cheers, RickO

RogerB

Can we presume that very few Chinese private banks and merchants had shops in Spain?

Interesting repetition of punches, too. On real merchants' marks how often is a backward good luck symbol used?

Very useful and good post. Are more forthcoming?

Namvet69

I also think part of the problem is the offers of U.S. coinage overseas. Adds a mysterious kinda discovery that masks the shill. And there is no recourse.

kaz

thanks for a very informative thread. Just to clarify, are you saying the coins themselves are fake?

ChopmarkedTrades

@kaz said:
thanks for a very informative thread. Just to clarify, are you saying the coins themselves are fake?

Probably so, but the range of dates coupled with the detail is certainly concerning.

ChopmarkedTrades

@RogerB said:
Can we presume that very few Chinese private banks and merchants had shops in Spain?

Interesting repetition of punches, too. On real merchants' marks how often is a backward good luck symbol used?

Very useful and good post. Are more forthcoming?

If I find out anymore about the counterfeiters or see any more examples, I'll update the thread.

Aotearoa

@ricko said:
Definitely some phony chop marks on those coins.... That swastika is ridiculous....Cheers, RickO

Yep. The swastika arms are going the wrong way.

DDR

Very interesting post, ChopmarkedTrades. I have seen that style of chopmarks for well over a decade, so it is not something new. To me, the chops have the appearance of being placed or pressed into the coin, rather than stamped (it's kind of hard to describe.) And as you note, they often get into TPG slabs as genuine.

The dates and mintmarks I have seen for these types of chops are almost always common ones, as are the ones you have posted here. That makes me believe the underlying coin is counterfeit. Otherwise, putting fake chops on a real, but common, Trade Dollar only serves to lower the value of the original, real coin. It only makes sense to put fake chops on fake common Trade Dollars in order to distract the eye or make the coin seem real (a 75-P or 78-CC is another matter).

However, if the underlying coin is not fake, then we have to consider that maybe the chops are not fake either...

I am not 100 percent certain, but my money is on fake coins + fake chops.

TwoKopeiki

I know and respect a number of collectors specializing in collecting chopmarked coinage, but I would never touch this series, personally. In this age of affordable 3d printers and increasingly more durable printing materials, it's only a matter of time until creating various punches in the comfort of your home is trivial.

stealer

I've always been a proponent of the idea that these are fake chopmarks. I recall reading somewhere (and have since forgotten) that chopped Trades used to sell at a premium vs undamaged ones, which strongly colors my opinion that there are counterfeit chops on genuine coins. Then again, I may be totally wrong.

I saw those coins on eBay and I feel that they are genuine pieces with counterfeit chops. What you describe is accurate, they tend to be very "flat" at the bottom (deepest point) of the chop, whereas the ones that I consider to be vintage tend to have sharp or ragged surfaces, much as what you would expect from hitting the coin with a metal object to create an imprint.

@Aotearoa said:

@ricko said:
Definitely some phony chop marks on those coins.... That swastika is ridiculous....Cheers, RickO

Yep. The swastika arms are going the wrong way.

The Swastika has ancient origins (and is found in both orientations) and the chop is likely a characterization of the Buddhist reincarnation wheel!

ricko

@Aotearoa....They are going the same way as the Nazi swastika.. right facing....Cheers, RickO

TennesseeDave

Thanks for the heads up. I had seen those and did not suspect them as fakes.

Aotearoa

My comment was based on my understanding that the Chinese swastika was always left-facing. A quick google now shows me that there are historical instances of right-facing swastikas in China.

@ricko said:
@Aotearoa....They are going the same way as the Nazi swastika.. right facing....Cheers, RickO

ShadyDave

https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-man-claims-swastika-lawn-display-in-tibet-symbol-amid-neighbors-complaints.amp

Maybe this guys is the counterfeiter... 😬😂😎

AlexinPA

What's funny about this is the seller has a 100% feedback rating with 32 pages of feedback. He has sold some coins in the past but it appears to be a mish mash of items cheap and expensive. On another forum a poster did a full look at his feedback and can't find anything. Very strange that a lot like this just shows up.

Insider2

I take much of what I read/hear about anything in one eye/ear and out the other UNTIL it can be confirmed to my satisfaction. I've been examining "Chops" for many years under high magnification. I have seen what I consider to be non-contemporary chop-marks so they must exist.

A knowledgeable member has posted that "modern" chops are being added to Trade dollars in Spain. Hopefully, we'll learn more as this claim is backed-up. Publications? Links? Opinions of other experts? Basically proof.

THANKS in advance.

shirohniichan

Last night I took out my chopped trade dollars for the first time in well over a year. Even 10 or 20 years ago there were fakes out there, but they seem to be getting better and more common.