@HighGradeLegends said:
Forum members should reach out to the PWCC to point out the issue with his card and allow them to correct the description. This may drive some change.
I had thought about a completely new thread with a different title -- example "PWCC Relisted the Card I Returned"
If only to give people a heads up in case they were going to bid/buy the card (just to let them know there's that "wrinkle" on the card).
A new Thread might get more attention - but I wasn't sure. I mean, if the "wrinkle" is part of the card and the TPG and PWCC both think it's fine in a TPG 9 holder, then so be it. I was just not expecting that type of flaw on a graded 9. And I thought PWCC had more integrity than what they are showing (NOTE: I thought that way about PWCC BEFORE the whole alteration/conservation and doctored cards data that has come out recently. Now, not so much...)
@HighGradeLegends said:
Forum members should reach out to the PWCC to point out the issue with his card and allow them to correct the description. This may drive some change.
I had thought about a completely new thread with a different title -- example "PWCC Relisted the Card I Returned"
If only to give people a heads up in case they were going to bid/buy the card (just to let them know there's that "wrinkle" on the card).
A new Thread might get more attention - but I wasn't sure. I mean, if the "wrinkle" is part of the card and the TPG and PWCC both think it's fine in a TPG 9 holder, then so be it. I was just not expecting that type of flaw on a graded 9. And I thought PWCC had more integrity than what they are showing (NOTE: I thought that way about PWCC BEFORE the whole alteration/conservation and doctored cards data that has come out recently. Now, not so much...)
I think a new "warning" thread would be a great idea.
In regards to PWCC’s involvement in the most recent doctoring scandal, my pitchfork is sharpened and my torch is well lit.
But I see this as a different/non issue.
The defect is a factory defect, and a slight one at that. One which the TPG didn’t think merited a grade lower than 9. It might not meet your standards and if that’s the case you can return it, I guess. But to me there’s nothing unethical in relisting it as a factory-fresh, non-altered PSA 9. Because that’s what it is.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
Here is their published return policy.
I leave it to each of us to decide for ourselves if it is being applied fairly given what has been described.
My biggest issue is with PWCC's contradictory return policy. The first sentence states that they have a "no-questions-asked" return policy, but then the very next sentence states the ONLY reason why you are allowed to make a return, and then it continues listing a bunch of reasons why you can't return an item! A truly no-questions-asked return policy means you can return an item for any reason, without being asked why. A company has the right to create their own return policy, but PWCC's is deceiving and contradictory. They are having their cake and eating it too. My advice would be to not tell them why you are making a return, informing them that their return policy states that it's a no-questions-asked policy.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
Here is their published return policy.
I leave it to each of us to decide for ourselves if it is being applied fairly given what has been described.
My biggest issue is with PWCC's contradictory return policy. The first sentence states that they have a "no-questions-asked" return policy, but then the very next sentence states the ONLY reason why you are allowed to make a return, and then it continues listing a bunch of reasons why you can't return an item! A truly no-questions-asked return policy means you can return an item for any reason, without being asked why. A company has the right to create their own return policy, but PWCC's is deceiving and contradictory. They are having their cake and eating it too. My advice would be to not tell them why you are making a return, informing them that their return policy states that it's a no-questions-asked policy.
I read it as saying it is NOT a no questions asked return policy.
Sure seems obvious to me.
Am I missing something here?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@CrissCriss said:
You could have prevented this by sending the card to the TPG. Surely you had to know the card might re-enter the marketplace when you returned it.
And yes, that’s exactly what PWCC should do with it too.
I got your point the first time. I had no idea what the TPG would do - whether they would
1) tell me the 3.5 inch "wrinkle" is a factory flaw and is acceptable for their standards for a 9. The foil is raised as if there was no glue to hold it down to the surface of the card below the foil (that is what it looks like to me)
2) re-grade the card and then give me "X" amount based on their valuation for a Jeter 9 SP rookie vs. the new grade -- this was a big variable because I had no idea what they would value a 9 at. If they think a 9 is less than what I paid, it could have been a big loss in terms of their SMR 9 value vs what I paid (Jeter rookies have been all over the place recently)
I thought PWCC's description misrepresented the card (by accident because I totally understand them missing the flaw). So I processed a return to make sure I got my full money back (instead of the question on what the TPG would value a 9 vs. the new grade). I did not think anything would be wrong with that. I mean I've spent over $10K with PWCC and never a problem over the last couple of years. Again, I process the return because I felt it was within their return policy because it was misrepresented in their description (and I also feel it is misrepresented in their current description on the relisted card).
I believe I originally posted that had they simply listed the card as TPG 9 (without any added description to pump up the card), then I probably go the TPG route instead of processing a return based on their misrepresentation policy.
Their description (knowing about the factory flaw) The offered "TPG 9" is simply stunning with glistening surfaces and clear imagery. Shows rock-solid corners with blemish free borders and wonderful registration. A sound investment commodity which commands attention.
I honestly don't care that they blocked me (I actually thank them for doing it now). I'm only trying to make sure people are aware that the current TPG 9 has the "wrinkle" before someone spends $2K - $3K+ (current high bid is $1,730 with 7+ days to go) on the what the new buyer hopes to be a TPG 9 (some might find the line to be a non-factor, and that's fine too if that's what you want from a TPG 9 for that amount of money).
@KendallCat said:
Wow. That wrinkle looks rough. How is it PWCC always states we are not TPG, and then on the other hand they are labeling every other card HE, PQ, A, S, E.... it appears that they like grading if they agree, and when they don’t they step in and add a grade themselves. Sorry to hear they banned you for a return for a legit reason.
KC
Completely agree.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I was unable to give him (Probstien) a neg when he lost some of my cards. Please add one for me.
That was my experience too. My first and last consignment consisted of a large quantity of signed balls and autographed items. About 1/3 of them (all lesser items) were sold, 1/3 were returned to me unsold and 1/3 were lost. Funny how the ones that were lost included the bigger ticket items, e.g. a signed Mantle photo that I personally stood in line for at a show in NJ.
Never any compensation for the lost items and after a lot of back-and-forth about looking for the lost items but it just died a slow death.
This was when Rick was still working out of his basement and I delivered the consignment personally.
A major disappointment, but not easily traceable to I had to let it go.
I was unable to give him (Probstien) a neg when he lost some of my cards. Please add one for me.
That was my experience too. My first and last consignment consisted of a large quantity of signed balls and autographed items. About 1/3 of them (all lesser items) were sold, 1/3 were returned to me unsold and 1/3 were lost. Funny how the ones that were lost included the bigger ticket items, e.g. a signed Mantle photo that I personally stood in line for at a show in NJ.
Never any compensation for the lost items and after a lot of back-and-forth about looking for the lost items but it just died a slow death.
This was when Rick was still working out of his basement and I delivered the consignment personally.
A major disappointment, but not easily traceable to I had to let it go.
I did not know Rick operated like that. There's no excuse for losing items like that. That's ridiculous.
I was unable to give him (Probstien) a neg when he lost some of my cards. Please add one for me.
That was my experience too. My first and last consignment consisted of a large quantity of signed balls and autographed items. About 1/3 of them (all lesser items) were sold, 1/3 were returned to me unsold and 1/3 were lost. Funny how the ones that were lost included the bigger ticket items, e.g. a signed Mantle photo that I personally stood in line for at a show in NJ.
Never any compensation for the lost items and after a lot of back-and-forth about looking for the lost items but it just died a slow death.
This was when Rick was still working out of his basement and I delivered the consignment personally.
A major disappointment, but not easily traceable to I had to let it go.
I did not know Rick operated like that. There's no excuse for losing items like that. That's ridiculous.
Mistakes happen, What made me so mad was the way he treated me when I inquired about what was going to be done about it.
ABSOLUTE WORST person I have encountered in 30 years of collecting. Not even close.
Maybe I should have kept the Ted Williams rookie card he mistakenly sent to me!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I was unable to give him (Probstien) a neg when he lost some of my cards. Please add one for me.
That was my experience too. My first and last consignment consisted of a large quantity of signed balls and autographed items. About 1/3 of them (all lesser items) were sold, 1/3 were returned to me unsold and 1/3 were lost. Funny how the ones that were lost included the bigger ticket items, e.g. a signed Mantle photo that I personally stood in line for at a show in NJ.
Never any compensation for the lost items and after a lot of back-and-forth about looking for the lost items but it just died a slow death.
This was when Rick was still working out of his basement and I delivered the consignment personally.
A major disappointment, but not easily traceable to I had to let it go.
I always included a packing list with my submissions. Obviously, no one was checking.
He actually lost some of my cards on two occasions, but did find them the first time.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
With the 1970s PWCC auctions ending tonight, I took a look at the PSA 9 1972 Fisk rookie. The current top bidder has 28 bid retractions in the last 6 months. Hard to believe this is allowed to go on, whoever is to blame.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
Here is their published return policy.
I leave it to each of us to decide for ourselves if it is being applied fairly given what has been described.
My biggest issue is with PWCC's contradictory return policy. The first sentence states that they have a "no-questions-asked" return policy, but then the very next sentence states the ONLY reason why you are allowed to make a return, and then it continues listing a bunch of reasons why you can't return an item! A truly no-questions-asked return policy means you can return an item for any reason, without being asked why. A company has the right to create their own return policy, but PWCC's is deceiving and contradictory. They are having their cake and eating it too. My advice would be to not tell them why you are making a return, informing them that their return policy states that it's a no-questions-asked policy.
I read it as saying it is NOT a no questions asked return policy.
Sure seems obvious to me.
Am I missing something here?
Sorry, I misread it, and maybe the double negative threw me off. But you are all obviously correct...it's not a no-questions asked return policy. Thanks for correcting me!
@DotStore said:
I recently processed a Return to PWCC because I felt the PWCC Description was inaccurate based on the Actual Condition of the Card.
Over the last couple of years, I've probably made bids on their listings totaling about $15K to $25K (so pretty small I guess compared to some other larger customers). I won about $10K worth of items -- but the key for the listings I lost was that alot of times I was the 2nd Highest Bidder -- so even though I did not win, I helped them realize a higher selling price by being the 2nd Highest Bidder. I guess they no longer want my business.
The card I returned was an overgraded card by one of the TPG's. I pointed out the flaw and provided pictures as proof. Had they just listed the card as "TPG 9", I probably would have kept the card and handled it through sending it back to the TPG for a Review.
Because I trusted PWCC's ability to assess and comment appropriately on a card, I made the purchase. Here is their description of the card:
The offered "TPG 9" is simply stunning with glistening surfaces and clear imagery. Shows rock-solid corners with blemish free borders and wonderful registration. A sound investment commodity which commands attention.
What they missed (and the TPG also missed) was a surface wrinkle that ran the entire length of the card from top-to-bottom. 3.5 inches of a surface wrinkle that is barely noticeable except at a certain angle and under proper lighting. But once you see it, you cannot un-see it.
Well they accepted the return and gave me a full refund. But their advertised "Free Returns" actually came with a price tag --the cost was being banned from bidding on any of their future auctions.
So long PWCC...
p.s. I had set up an account for their Vault Service, but it appears I won't be needing that anymore...
Anyone using terms like sound and investment strategies in a description must have some “SUM” insurance policies. Never smart to make such promises on market you cannot control
Comments
I had thought about a completely new thread with a different title -- example "PWCC Relisted the Card I Returned"
If only to give people a heads up in case they were going to bid/buy the card (just to let them know there's that "wrinkle" on the card).
A new Thread might get more attention - but I wasn't sure. I mean, if the "wrinkle" is part of the card and the TPG and PWCC both think it's fine in a TPG 9 holder, then so be it. I was just not expecting that type of flaw on a graded 9. And I thought PWCC had more integrity than what they are showing (NOTE: I thought that way about PWCC BEFORE the whole alteration/conservation and doctored cards data that has come out recently. Now, not so much...)
I think a new "warning" thread would be a great idea.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
In regards to PWCC’s involvement in the most recent doctoring scandal, my pitchfork is sharpened and my torch is well lit.
But I see this as a different/non issue.
The defect is a factory defect, and a slight one at that. One which the TPG didn’t think merited a grade lower than 9. It might not meet your standards and if that’s the case you can return it, I guess. But to me there’s nothing unethical in relisting it as a factory-fresh, non-altered PSA 9. Because that’s what it is.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
My biggest issue is with PWCC's contradictory return policy. The first sentence states that they have a "no-questions-asked" return policy, but then the very next sentence states the ONLY reason why you are allowed to make a return, and then it continues listing a bunch of reasons why you can't return an item! A truly no-questions-asked return policy means you can return an item for any reason, without being asked why. A company has the right to create their own return policy, but PWCC's is deceiving and contradictory. They are having their cake and eating it too. My advice would be to not tell them why you are making a return, informing them that their return policy states that it's a no-questions-asked policy.
They are making some bad business decisions here.
This is certainly not going to restore trust imo.> @CrissCriss said:
I believe PSA says to return it to seller.
I read it as saying it is NOT a no questions asked return policy.
Sure seems obvious to me.
Am I missing something here?
Yep. Says NOT a no-questions-asked return policy in the first sentence. It certainly doesn't say retaliation free either.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
I got your point the first time. I had no idea what the TPG would do - whether they would
1) tell me the 3.5 inch "wrinkle" is a factory flaw and is acceptable for their standards for a 9. The foil is raised as if there was no glue to hold it down to the surface of the card below the foil (that is what it looks like to me)
2) re-grade the card and then give me "X" amount based on their valuation for a Jeter 9 SP rookie vs. the new grade -- this was a big variable because I had no idea what they would value a 9 at. If they think a 9 is less than what I paid, it could have been a big loss in terms of their SMR 9 value vs what I paid (Jeter rookies have been all over the place recently)
I thought PWCC's description misrepresented the card (by accident because I totally understand them missing the flaw). So I processed a return to make sure I got my full money back (instead of the question on what the TPG would value a 9 vs. the new grade). I did not think anything would be wrong with that. I mean I've spent over $10K with PWCC and never a problem over the last couple of years. Again, I process the return because I felt it was within their return policy because it was misrepresented in their description (and I also feel it is misrepresented in their current description on the relisted card).
I believe I originally posted that had they simply listed the card as TPG 9 (without any added description to pump up the card), then I probably go the TPG route instead of processing a return based on their misrepresentation policy.
Their description (knowing about the factory flaw)
The offered "TPG 9" is simply stunning with glistening surfaces and clear imagery. Shows rock-solid corners with blemish free borders and wonderful registration. A sound investment commodity which commands attention.
I honestly don't care that they blocked me (I actually thank them for doing it now). I'm only trying to make sure people are aware that the current TPG 9 has the "wrinkle" before someone spends $2K - $3K+ (current high bid is $1,730 with 7+ days to go) on the what the new buyer hopes to be a TPG 9 (some might find the line to be a non-factor, and that's fine too if that's what you want from a TPG 9 for that amount of money).
Very true, seems silly to block someone who returns a card with a flaw.
Check out their feedback
Seems to be normal protocol
Looked at about 1600 transactions, saw 2 negs because of high shipping costs.
Must have missed it.
Click on the Negs
They are scattered amongst them
I'll take your word for it.
They sell a LOT of cards and have a LOT of happy customers. I suppose blocking anyone who returns a card isn't really going to hurt their business.
Still don't like it.
The more I see here the more I don't like them,
You are GOOD, my man!
This a perfect example of how "bean counters" are, in many companies, making it harder and harder to do business.
POOR business decision brought on by too much success.
What's the ratio of transactions with a complaint to the transactions with no complaint during the past 12 months?
I looked at 1600 transactions with only 2 negs.
Blocking people who return cards is not going to hurt them.
Honestly, my biggest pet peeves are buyers complaining about scratches on cases and buyers complaining about the condition of graded cards.
Generally, these buyers are looking for a partial refund or looking to return the card. PWCC doesn’t seem to entertain them. Good for them.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Just for comparison sake:
Past 12 months, positive to negative ratio sans nuetrals
PWCC is about 1223:1
Probstein is about 8778:1
Probstein does more than double the volume but they do have triple the Nuetrals than PWCC
Maybe they should get rid of the double negative in their return policy. I ain't got no time for this.
I was unable to give him (Probstien) a neg when he lost some of my cards. Please add one for me.
Completely agree.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Does Probstein sell cards only ……….. or does he also sell other items?
Rumor has it he is actively seeking other items besides cards.
That was my experience too. My first and last consignment consisted of a large quantity of signed balls and autographed items. About 1/3 of them (all lesser items) were sold, 1/3 were returned to me unsold and 1/3 were lost. Funny how the ones that were lost included the bigger ticket items, e.g. a signed Mantle photo that I personally stood in line for at a show in NJ.
Never any compensation for the lost items and after a lot of back-and-forth about looking for the lost items but it just died a slow death.
This was when Rick was still working out of his basement and I delivered the consignment personally.
A major disappointment, but not easily traceable to I had to let it go.
Dave
I did not know Rick operated like that. There's no excuse for losing items like that. That's ridiculous.
Mistakes happen, What made me so mad was the way he treated me when I inquired about what was going to be done about it.
ABSOLUTE WORST person I have encountered in 30 years of collecting. Not even close.
Maybe I should have kept the Ted Williams rookie card he mistakenly sent to me!
I always included a packing list with my submissions. Obviously, no one was checking.
He actually lost some of my cards on two occasions, but did find them the first time.
With the 1970s PWCC auctions ending tonight, I took a look at the PSA 9 1972 Fisk rookie. The current top bidder has 28 bid retractions in the last 6 months. Hard to believe this is allowed to go on, whoever is to blame.
Sorry, I misread it, and maybe the double negative threw me off. But you are all obviously correct...it's not a no-questions asked return policy. Thanks for correcting me!
Anyone using terms like sound and investment strategies in a description must have some “SUM” insurance policies. Never smart to make such promises on market you cannot control
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member