Milk Spots on the Silver Eagles :(

dpoole

I've been inventorying ASEs I've bought over the years, including MS and Proof 70s.

Not surprisingly, a percentage have developed milk spots over time.

Based on past discussions, I'm assuming:

1. There's still no remedy, once they appear;
2. PCGS stopped guaranteeing grading for milk-spotted ASEs long ago;
3. My milk-spotted MS70s and PR70DCs are now worth bullion
4. I'm %^$*&@#ed.

Tell me the truth. I can take it.

eddie1943

I understand from the discussions over Canadian Silver Coins that it is an inadequate rinse of the acid wash used on the blanks during the minting process. Australia Perth Mint puts all their silver coins in a plastic capsule. I have yet to see a Perth Mint Silver Coin with spots. I have a few rolls of Canadian Birds of Prey silver coins, that I bought before I found out about spots. I'm hoping to avoid the spots. I do keep them away from humidity.

Hemispherical

Ouch! for the 70s!

thisistheshow

I am not an expert on this, but as far as I know statement 1 and statement 2 are correct. In my opinion, statement three is incorrect. As for statement four, time will tell. Maybe the day will come when milk spots can be removed and you will be very happy you did not sell yours at bullion price. I cannot afford to collect MS70 ASEs, but if I had a dollar for every time I encountered the following thought process, maybe I could: "The premium on MS70 ASEs is not justified, particularly because of the chance of milk spots, so I am buying an MS69".

derryb

One should not collect graded ASEs.

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:
One should not collect graded ASEs.

One should collect whatever one wants.

bolivarshagnasty

Your £#%{+¥!

dpoole

@derryb said:
One should not collect graded ASEs.

One is getting the picture.

derryb

@jmlanzaf said:

@derryb said:
One should not collect graded ASEs.

One should collect whatever one wants.

then one shouldn't complain when one has been warned.

Zoins

@dpoole said:
I've been inventorying ASEs I've bought over the years, including MS and Proof 70s.

Not surprisingly, a percentage have developed milk spots over time.

Based on past discussions, I'm assuming:

1. There's still no remedy, once they appear;

Correct.

2. PCGS stopped guaranteeing grading for milk-spotted ASEs long ago;

Correct.

3. My milk-spotted MS70s and PR70DCs are now worth bullion

Correct.

4. I'm %^$*&@#ed.

Correct.

Tell me the truth. I can take it.

You're batting a 1.000.

Well, you may still get more than bullion for Registry Set collectors but not sure how much.

drfish

If sold on eBay or through Great Collections you should get over melt, just be sure to take decent pictures and be honest in your descriptions.
To add the bad news, every year when I check my graded ASEs I find a few more that have developed spots. So the fun never seems to stop

dpoole

@drfish said:
If sold on eBay or through Great Collections you should get over melt, just be sure to take decent pictures and be honest in your descriptions.

I have been selling a couple on Ebay with accurate pictures and tortured descriptions/commentary. Surprisingly, they are drawing bids.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254236828300

Insider2

SOME of the smaller spots that develop once a SE is slabbed can be removed. We've done it at two TPGS conservation services I have worked at. I'll image a before and after SE on another forum and link to it the next time I do one.

COCollector

It's true, the PCGS grade guarantee doesn't cover silver bullion.

But they definitely guarantee authenticity. IMO that's worth a small premium over melt.

privatecoin

How do you treat the measles?

DrBuster

@eddie1943 said:
I understand from the discussions over Canadian Silver Coins that it is an inadequate rinse of the acid wash used on the blanks during the minting process. Australia Perth Mint puts all their silver coins in a plastic capsule. I have yet to see a Perth Mint Silver Coin with spots. I have a few rolls of Canadian Birds of Prey silver coins, that I bought before I found out about spots. I'm hoping to avoid the spots. I do keep them away from humidity.

I have some Perth bullion kangaroos that have some milk on them. Either first or second year ones, I’ll have to check my rolls, haven’t looked at them in over a year.

And I have a roll of maples that look like they’re swimming in half&half.

Sucks even when it’s just bullion.

ilmcoins

Unfortunately I consider them all bullion and put no value on higher grades. I know that I am likely in the minority with that. It is a shame if you bought ms70 coins and they developed the spots after purchasing them.

rln_14

Do the ASE's develop the milk spots if they remain in the OGP? I do not know, have not looked at them for a while..thanks

cameonut2011

@dpoole said:
Tell me the truth. I can take it.

You already know the truth. You could write Charville if the coins were encapsulated prior to the change of the guarantee, but I wouldn't pay $25/coin for them to tell you that they won't honor the guarantee. The value on these has collapsed anyway so recovery will be limited. The best bet is to dump them on all eBay with no reserve and honest photos/descriptions and let the market decide.

Insider2

@rln_14 said:
Do the ASE's develop the milk spots if they remain in the OGP? I do not know, have not looked at them for a while..thanks

Yes they can.

As for that Franklin, I've already sugged what I believe caused those spots after the coin was slabbed. I will not repeat it.

cameonut2011

@jmlanzaf said:

@derryb said:
One should not collect graded ASEs.

One should collect whatever one wants.

You can do so at your own financial peril.

topstuf

Try to think of them as "adjustment spots."

Justacommeman

That blows. I feel for you

m

cameonut2011

@eddie1943 said:
I understand from the discussions over Canadian Silver Coins that it is an inadequate rinse of the acid wash used on the blanks during the minting process.

If that is the case, it would seem that someone would have developed a chemical treatment to remove the spots already; however, to my knowledge, once there, there is no way to remove the spots without damaging the coin.

eddie1943

@DrBuster said:

@eddie1943 said:
I understand from the discussions over Canadian Silver Coins that it is an inadequate rinse of the acid wash used on the blanks during the minting process. Australia Perth Mint puts all their silver coins in a plastic capsule. I have yet to see a Perth Mint Silver Coin with spots. I have a few rolls of Canadian Birds of Prey silver coins, that I bought before I found out about spots. I'm hoping to avoid the spots. I do keep them away from humidity.

I have some Perth bullion kangaroos that have some milk on them. Either first or second year ones, I’ll have to check my rolls, haven’t looked at them in over a year.

And I have a roll of maples that look like they’re swimming in half&half.

Sucks even when it’s just bullion.

Buster thanks for the input. I have several rolls of Perth mint coins and two sets of Kookaburras (1990 -Present) coins and some misc. kooks, one set graded and one set in capsules. No spots on them whatsoever. I think the storage has a lot to do with it.

PerryHall

@eddie1943 said:

@DrBuster said:

@eddie1943 said:
I understand from the discussions over Canadian Silver Coins that it is an inadequate rinse of the acid wash used on the blanks during the minting process. Australia Perth Mint puts all their silver coins in a plastic capsule. I have yet to see a Perth Mint Silver Coin with spots. I have a few rolls of Canadian Birds of Prey silver coins, that I bought before I found out about spots. I'm hoping to avoid the spots. I do keep them away from humidity.

I have some Perth bullion kangaroos that have some milk on them. Either first or second year ones, I’ll have to check my rolls, haven’t looked at them in over a year.

And I have a roll of maples that look like they’re swimming in half&half.

Sucks even when it’s just bullion.

Buster thanks for the input. I have several rolls of Perth mint coins and two sets of Kookaburras (1990 -Present) coins and some misc. kooks, one set graded and one set in capsules. No spots on them whatsoever. I think the storage has a lot to do with it.

I think it has a lot more to do with how the planchets are prepared---how thoroughly are they washed and how thoroughly they are rinsed.

ricko

This topic comes up about twice a year... at one time it was every day.... A suggestion by a forum member long ago, was to immediately give the ASE an acetone bath when received....I did that and have had no milk spots. Maybe just lucky, maybe it works... No method of removal though... once it develops, it stays....I will be interested to hear about what @Insider2 has found...Cheers, RickO

DrBuster

@eddie1943 said:

@DrBuster said:

@eddie1943 said:
I understand from the discussions over Canadian Silver Coins that it is an inadequate rinse of the acid wash used on the blanks during the minting process. Australia Perth Mint puts all their silver coins in a plastic capsule. I have yet to see a Perth Mint Silver Coin with spots. I have a few rolls of Canadian Birds of Prey silver coins, that I bought before I found out about spots. I'm hoping to avoid the spots. I do keep them away from humidity.

I have some Perth bullion kangaroos that have some milk on them. Either first or second year ones, I’ll have to check my rolls, haven’t looked at them in over a year.

And I have a roll of maples that look like they’re swimming in half&half.

Sucks even when it’s just bullion.

Buster thanks for the input. I have several rolls of Perth mint coins and two sets of Kookaburras (1990 -Present) coins and some misc. kooks, one set graded and one set in capsules. No spots on them whatsoever. I think the storage has a lot to do with it.

None of my kooks/koalas have them, just the kangaroo bullion ones.

Aercus

Anyone have any microscope pictures of these spots? I am thinking XPS is too much to hope for 😀

RogerB

Three things to consider:
1. Each time a coin is exposed to air it is also exposed to dust, spores, microscopic metal fragments, and other contaminants.
2. No TPG uses basic "clean room" procedures.
3. Removing any coin, especially modern proofs, vastly increases the risk of surface contamination.

Conclusion: The collector is equally culpable with the TPG for post-minting contamination. Good handling procedures and common sense can avoid, prevent or reduce contamination.

asheland

From my observation, once the eagle has been slabbed at least a year, if it's free of spots, you're probably good to go.

asheland

Five years, almost certainly stable...

Insider2

@ricko said:
This topic comes up about twice a year... at one time it was every day.... A suggestion by a forum member long ago, was to immediately give the ASE an acetone bath when received....I did that and have had no milk spots. Maybe just lucky, maybe it works... No method of removal though... once it develops, it stays....I will be interested to hear about what @Insider2 has found...Cheers, RickO

I have a personal need to clean stuff. I do it routinely to improve a coin's eye appeal. I made the suggestion to a former employer that EVERY coin received for authentication/grading be put through a vapor degreaser! It would remove everything contaminating the coin's surface. I never had the chance to try a toned coin when I had access to one of these units at a metal processing business. I'll bet that stable toning would remain but on occasion it might become duller. Oils tend to reflect light better.

Oh, my suggestion was denied. LOL.

cameonut2011

@RogerB said:
Three things to consider:
1. Each time a coin is exposed to air it is also exposed to dust, spores, microscopic metal fragments, and other contaminants.
2. No TPG uses basic "clean room" procedures.
3. Removing any coin, especially modern proofs, vastly increases the risk of surface contamination.

Conclusion: The collector is equally culpable with the TPG for post-minting contamination. Good handling procedures and common sense can avoid, prevent or reduce contamination.

It would be interesting to see the TPGSs implement #2 much like a microprocessor factory.

RogerB

Funny....

They don't need to get that close to clean room standards. Basic clean-up, masks, and filtered air would take care of most potential problems. But it has to be consistent from opening the order through encapsulation.

BAJJERFAN

@cameonut2011 said:

@dpoole said:
Tell me the truth. I can take it.

You already know the truth. You could write Charville if the coins were encapsulated prior to the change of the guarantee, but I wouldn't pay $25/coin for them to tell you that they won't honor the guarantee. The value on these has collapsed anyway so recovery will be limited. The best bet is to dump them on all eBay with no reserve and honest photos/descriptions and let the market decide.

Was removal of the guarantee retroactive or a from then on or just a wholesale no more coverage which included all ASEs and like-type bullion?

BAJJERFAN

@Insider2 said:

@rln_14 said:
Do the ASE's develop the milk spots if they remain in the OGP? I do not know, have not looked at them for a while..thanks

Yes they can.

As for that Franklin, I've already sugged what I believe caused those spots after the coin was slabbed. I will not repeat it.

Any proof or mere speculation?

Insider2

@cameonut2011 said:

@RogerB said:
Three things to consider:
1. Each time a coin is exposed to air it is also exposed to dust, spores, microscopic metal fragments, and other contaminants.
2. No TPG uses basic "clean room" procedures.
3. Removing any coin, especially modern proofs, vastly increases the risk of surface contamination.

Conclusion: The collector is equally culpable with the TPG for post-minting contamination. Good handling procedures and common sense can avoid, prevent or reduce contamination.

It would be interesting to see the TPGSs implement #2 much like a microprocessor factory.

Clean Room? LOL, coins are fairly stable and things have been rolling along - mostly fine - since the first coin were slabbed (late 1970's?). To go overboard as suggested would probably raise the cost of slabbing to $50 per using the normal three month return. You could always us the two day tier for $300 each.

I'm in favor of a simple 50c hair net to keep loose hair out of the slabs.

BAJJERFAN

Glad I didn't pay big $$$ for a slabbed 95-W ASE. Anyone have anecdotes of any of those spotting AFTER encapsulation?

1630Boston

Royal Canadian Mint develops system aimed at fixing ‘milk spots’
Officials claim Mintshield technology will minimize vexing surface damage

The newest advance in silver bullion coin technology is something the Royal Canadian Mint hopes buyers never see.

The RCM announced Feb. 2 during the World Money Fair in Berlin the development of Mintshield, a proprietary new process that mint officials said reduces the occurrence of white spots on silver bullion coins.

All 2018 Maple Leaf silver bullion coins, including the double-incuse coin and another special 30th anniversary design, incorporate this new surface protection technology.

Invisible to the eye, Mintshield doesn’t alter a coin’s composition or purity and can be applied efficiently in a large-scale production environment, according to the RCM. RCM officials say that laboratory testing that simulates long-term use has demonstrated that Maple Leaf silver bullion coins treated with Mintshield successfully resist white spotting compared to all other silver bullion products in the market. As of 2018, all Maple Leaf silver bullion coins are enhanced with Mintshield surface protection.

White spots (also called “milk spots”) are surface discolorations that sometimes mar the appearance of silver bullion products.

full Coin World story here https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/2018/02/royal-canadian-mint-develops-milk-spot-fix.all.html

cameonut2011

@Insider2 said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@RogerB said:
Three things to consider:
1. Each time a coin is exposed to air it is also exposed to dust, spores, microscopic metal fragments, and other contaminants.
2. No TPG uses basic "clean room" procedures.
3. Removing any coin, especially modern proofs, vastly increases the risk of surface contamination.

Conclusion: The collector is equally culpable with the TPG for post-minting contamination. Good handling procedures and common sense can avoid, prevent or reduce contamination.

It would be interesting to see the TPGSs implement #2 much like a microprocessor factory.

Clean Room? LOL, coins are fairly stable and things have been rolling along - mostly fine - since the first coin were slabbed (late 1970's?). To go overboard as suggested would probably raise the cost of slabbing to $50 per using the normal three month return. You could always us the two day tier for $300 each.

I'm in favor of a simple 50c hair net to keep loose hair out of the slabs.

I agree regarding costs. You don't want to go crazy; however, you don't want to see hair, food particles, fingerprints not there before grading, or even boogers for that matter (you don't want to know).

cameonut2011

@1630Boston said:

Royal Canadian Mint develops system aimed at fixing ‘milk spots’
Officials claim Mintshield technology will minimize vexing surface damage

The newest advance in silver bullion coin technology is something the Royal Canadian Mint hopes buyers never see.

The RCM announced Feb. 2 during the World Money Fair in Berlin the development of Mintshield, a proprietary new process that mint officials said reduces the occurrence of white spots on silver bullion coins.

All 2018 Maple Leaf silver bullion coins, including the double-incuse coin and another special 30th anniversary design, incorporate this new surface protection technology.

Invisible to the eye, Mintshield doesn’t alter a coin’s composition or purity and can be applied efficiently in a large-scale production environment, according to the RCM. RCM officials say that laboratory testing that simulates long-term use has demonstrated that Maple Leaf silver bullion coins treated with Mintshield successfully resist white spotting compared to all other silver bullion products in the market. As of 2018, all Maple Leaf silver bullion coins are enhanced with Mintshield surface protection.

White spots (also called “milk spots”) are surface discolorations that sometimes mar the appearance of silver bullion products.

full Coin World story here https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/2018/02/royal-canadian-mint-develops-milk-spot-fix.all.html

~~~~

Awesome! I hadn't heard about this.

COCollector

Someday maybe TPGs will offer "clean room handling".

Of course there'd be an extra cost. And best of all, a special label.

Insider2

OLD NEWS. What I wish to know is this: When is the product coated? Is the planchet coated and then struck OR what is more believable to me is the coins are coated after being struck.

The reason I think it is done after the strike is because the act of striking the planchet with metal flow into the die recess MAY cause the coating to be pulled away from the relief just as we see on many copper plated zinc cents!

Anyone know the answer?

1630Boston

@COCollector said:
Someday maybe TPGs will offer "clean room handling".

Of course there'd be an extra cost. And best of all, a special label.

1630Boston

@Insider2 said:
OLD NEWS. What I wish to know is this: When is the product coated?

If you were hoping for a scientific breakdown of MINTSHIELD, the Royal Canadian Mint hasn’t been forthcoming with the actual information behind this proprietary new technology.
While the Royal Canadian Mint isn’t sharing information about the composition of MINTSHIELD, or even its application, there are a few known factors. MINTSHIELD is an invisible barrier applied to the surface of 2018 Canadian Silver Maple Leaf coins that protects against milk spots without causing any alteration in the coin’s composition or purity.

I do not know if it is applied to the 'surface' of the struck coin or the 'surface' of the planchet.

I think your idea makes the most sense.

Insider2

What it is made of is not important. Fifty year old "technology" would probably also work: Acetone first then Lacquer! When it is applied during the minting process is what we need to know!

lkenefic

Timely thread... I looked at the bullion coin in my type set... a 2007 ASE... last week. It had started medium dark rose toning around the periphery some time ago. However, recent inspection shows... you guessed it... a big milk spot in the middle of Liberty's gown... for the short term, I'll live with it. It's not any where near the most expensive coin in the set, and easily replaced. Who knows, if I have to replace ASE's every few years, maybe I will... by default... start accumulating silver bullion again! lol!!

RogerB

RE: "I do not know if it is applied to the 'surface' of the struck coin or the 'surface' of the planchet."

Have been told it is applied to the coin - but have not seen it in operation nor have I examined the Royal Canadian Mint Corporation coining and handling process. Following several research studies some years ago, most facilities making high quality proof coins adopted stringent standards for air and coining environment quality.

smokincoin

@BAJJERFAN said:
...and like-type bullion?

Seems the ASEs have been the most affected. Is that due to the .999 fineness? Makes me wonder with commemoratives and silver proof set coins from 2019 on now being .999.

@dpoole Sorry to hear about yours!

OPA

ASE's are not the only World coins affected by the dreaded milk spots. Add the UK's Britannia's to that list.