Ethics connected to Church Gold Buyer
logger7
Posts: 8,522 ✭✭✭✭✭
The local church has an annual fundraiser with a gold buyer who buys jewelry etc. from members:
"The annual Sell Your Old Gold fundraiser will return to St. A*** the weekend of May 31 to June 2, 2019 to raise funds for the annual summer mission trip. The public may support the fundraiser by visiting with “Bob, the Gold Man” on Friday, May 31, and Saturday, June 1, from **********, and on Sunday. Participants will be compensated, and 60 percent of the profits will be set aside for scholarships. Items being accepted include old gold and jewelry including broken chains and bracelets, single earrings, old school rings, gold non-working watches, dental gold as well as platinum, palladium and sterling silver jewelry, flatware and hollow ware. Questions can be directed to bob@xxxxgold.com."
I raised issues on this with the main Minister there who has had a long career, pre-ministry he was an executive at Stanford University. I indicated that I have a lot of experience in numismatics, and that many gold and jewelry buyers aren't known for their being fair buyers.
Some questions I had:
"What is your assessment of his fair purchase prices based on?
"What percentage of the precious metal melt price does he pay?
"If he is buying gems he would need to be a member of an oversight organization to do that legally."
I also pointed out that there are state requirements on buying precious metals and jewelry from the public.
In response the youth coordinator said "...we have never had any negative comments about anything and have a wonderful history with him."
Considering very few members of the general public have an idea what their jewelry and metals are worth and it is "for a good cause" etc. it is unlikely that there has been serious oversight of the buyer, right? Or am I being unfairly critical?
Comments
@logger7.... Those are fair questions and they deserve answers. Many years ago, in the small town I grew up in, there was an old guy that would go around, house to house, and ask to buy 'old gold'...much like your situation. He was not well attired and spoke colloquially. Well.. when he died, it turned out he was worth close to a million...a lot of money in those days....Cheers, RickO
don't imply anything about the guy and those are fair questions.
perhaps test the deals....
Something is fishy here.
Especially with 60% of the profit going to scholarships and it being a meaningful amount (I assume since they keep doing this event).
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
How is this any different than having BINGO at the church. In both cases the parishioners are making a donation to the church to support causes the "church" sees a worthy.
Good questions @logger7.
So I dug, a little.
Robert is one of the principals (VP) of his Connecticut Domestic Profit Corporation. Information about the corp is available online from the State’s business registry website. There are 1000 shares.
Done digging.
Until you know what prices he is actually paying best to just remain cautious. For all you know others may be receiving kickbacks to bring him in.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I've done something similar. It was for a non-profit and was done at a loss(if you count my salary). Building relationships is what it came down to. So don't be too quick to judge. Wouldn't hurt to test what % of melt he is buying at though. Just so you have proof for the next go around.
Interesting discussion !!!
I had a roadie who specialized in ...class rings.
His bizz was offering to alumni.
He did well. Class rings being 10k made them bargains from coin shops.
I think we've talked about the ethics of coin clubs having buying and appraisal weekends. There can be conflicts of interest, unless reasonable rules and oversight are part of the deal.
Money changers in the Temple--where have I heard that before?
John knows about.
Bob the gold man? I do not like the sound of that.
Certainly there are always exceptions... but generally when 'gold buyers' are involved, the gold buyer is not going to take a loss. The fact that this venue is taking place "church sponsored" and has the word "charity" thrown out... does not change the fact. In fact that sort of venue can cause the sellers... to let their guard down. I don't know Bob the gold man, so cannot say for sure... but here is what my spidey senses suspects:
Bob the gold man makes out well
The church makes out well
The flock gets fleeced (but in their mind for a good cause)
I'm extremely suspicious of this deal.
I knew it would happen.
Not all 'deals' are scams.... but all 'scams' are deals..... Just have to do the research... sometimes it is best to sell the gold elsewhere and just contribute to the cause....actually, usually it is best - find the best deal for YOU, the seller... always. Cheers, RickO
I don’t think this will end well for any of the sellers. Buyer has the “blessing” of the church to take advantage of mostly uninformed sellers.
I expressed the concerns initially with the head minister who said that there have been no problems with this buyer reported; he goes to other Catholic churches with similar buying weekends. The youth minister affirmed the head minister's lack of concern, his response had misspellings, you have to wonder what level of intellectual rigor is applied to these issues. I went to a Jesuit university which prizes due diligence, ethics and responsibility as core values. I try to follow that ethic. Recently I went to a church sponsored panel discussion on palliative and hospice care. One of the local priests was promoted as an expert on ethics, though I was not impressed with his position on the Terri Schiavo case, who was brain dead.
I definitely appreciate the need to fund programs for the youth, but you let the real experts do their jobs, and appreciate direct giving by those who want to directly support programs. Getting second and third opinions and valuations is essential to knowing what real markets are and not trusting the first appraiser/buyer.
Let us know how the Bob action goes.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The biggest problem is the head minister and the sellers wouldn’t know a good deal from a bad deal and as long as the church gets their money they’re happy.
I agree; precious metals and numismatics involve a steep learning curve; probably less than a couple percent of the population even educated and higher IQ people have the critical judgment and experience to ascertain sound business practice.
Not sure about ethics, but Jesus sure made a scene , with respect to the market makers setting up shop at the temple, back in the day.
I believe they were "money changers".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As others have suggested, maybe try to sell him something and see what happens. That way you will know for sure what it's all about.
I still think it smells. The congregation shouldn't be led to believe anything about Bob or his motives, be they good or not so good.
A much better approach would involve 3 or more potential gold buyers at the event. A little competition would insure that Bob is giving fair pricing and would allow the sellers a better understanding of fair value and would reduce the chance of a rarity slipping through the cracks and being sold "at melt" or "back of melt".
I knew it would happen.
Am I the only one that's wondering if the church pastor is getting a kick-back?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That's a good suggestion, but what to test him with? Coins, rare or common silver and gold coins, jewelry with valuable gems, and known precious metal content?
Offer him an AGE or other 1 oz gold coin. I assume you can reject his offer. Let us know what happens.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't know if you have any gold, but either way I would suggest maybe something that has no premium and perhaps something with an obvious premium- that way you can see if he is honest about value.
Logger make sure you have all his business info also, past 10-20 years tax returns, all rental contracts, insurance contracts, employee tax, insurance, wage expenses, any advertising, trade expenses and any and all other expenses and costs he may have, then you may dictate to him how he should run his business, especially when no one asked you... same goes for the church... maybe you should start your own business and compete...
I'm automatically nervous when I see anyone using the word church and the word ethics in a single sentence.
School classroom fund drives enlist the kids to have their parents solicit business from the community to provide a nominal benefit to the class and to the kid, and the donation aspect is well understood by all.
The difference here is that Bob is soliciting from people who may not know what their gold and other stuff is worth. Bob may be just fine, but blind trust doesn't work for me in this deal.
@rawteam1 - For a church charity event, I don't think that Bob should expect to make a profit out of this, other than perhaps a very nominal gain after his own expenses in liquidating the stuff has been taken into account. Good luck with that accounting.
If this is an annual thing, it really would be interesting to know how it turns out.
I knew it would happen.
Bob is soliciting? I don’t think so, the church is having the fundraiser, so I assume the church is in charge, I also assume the church is the one bringing in Bob and I’m assuming the church has made the agreement with Bob, anyone who shows, does of their own free will...
Once again if blind trust don’t work for you, start your own church and start your own business...
this is amazing, 2 entities start their own businesses and build them over time, they them come into contact with each other and create a common business that they start and build over time and now people who do nothing want to start dictating on how both should run their own entities, lol...
what most of you are against I assume you blindly believe or want to do yourselves, otherwise it’s the same challenges faced by the doers in this country, an unqualified person(s) want to start dictating and ordering people who created and worked for something, how they should do it the “right” way, after the successful people already did it...
501(3)C charities are given that privilege from the State to service the welfare of their membership who voluntarily support their activities. They enjoy many privileges and tax exemptions no business gets. https://tinyurl.com/y63sjrpt
Charities also must comply with stricter rules than businesses.
Another approach ... if this is strictly a fundraiser for the church (as opposed to a service provided with the hopes of a donation).
-Parishioners bring their 'old gold' to the church.
-Parishioners have their 'old gold' appraised by an 'official' appraiser (perhaps a church member with the appropriate credentials and no conflict of interest).
-Parishioners donate their 'old gold' based on the appraised value.
-Parishioners receive a donation receipt for tax purposes (assuming the church has the appropriate tax status).
-Church gathers all the 'old gold' and has local 'gold buyer' make offers.
-Church reports back to parishioners the results of the fundraiser (for transparency).
In short, the gold is donated directly to the church without a 'gold buyer' mucking up the middle.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
what most of you are against I assume you blindly believe or want to do yourselves
nope, no interest.
2 entities start their own businesses and build them over time, they them come into contact with each other and create a common business that they start and build over time and now people who do nothing want to start dictating on how both should run their own entities, lol...
sadly, the churches are forced to become businesses...…...kinda weird how things mutate when gov.com gets involved in social engineering via the tax code.
I knew it would happen.
Doubt the church went looking and found Bob. More likely Bob found the church and made his pitch. Question is "what is he paying for the gold?" Probably just another "we buy gold" outfit that doesn't have the overhead of a brick and mortar.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Doesn’t matter what he’s paying, he went out and made the deal, good or bad he did the work and made it happen, then the stiffs come out to referee and arm chair quarterback from the sidelines...
Fortunately most on this forum don't support the idea of a seller taking advantage of an uneducated buyer when it comes to coins, whether they be gold or not. Kudos to the OP for raising the red flag. Shame on the posters who support such shenanigans and those who perpetrate them.
Remember the "gypsies" who were hitting all the coins shops? They were just "doing all the work and making it happen." LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Sounds like a "we buy gold" guy is approaching churches. Curious as to what his actual buy prices are. Hopefully the OP will let us know.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
You can be sure that it's pennies on the dollar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Shop the buy prices locally so there is a comparison.
Just educate the consuners....so much easier and simple.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Wow sad commentary derryb, since you speak for “most” around here, it’s pathetic you most people crucified a guy you don’t even know his last name or anything else really except he going to an event he was asked to go to at a church, I didn’t know most everyone here lived in DC...
Doesn’t matter what he’s paying, he went out and made the deal, good or bad he did the work and made it happen, then the stiffs come out to referee and arm chair quarterback from the sidelines...
There's a similar debate about "payday lending". And price gouging during a gasoline shortage. And Tesla batteries that spontaneously combust. And on and on. On one hand I think there's a case to be made for a certain level of consumer protection. On the other hand, I want gov.com off my back wherever possible.
Maybe cohodk is right (this time), but still, how do you force people to be educated?
it’s pathetic you most people crucified a guy you don’t even know
That statement was about taking advantage of an uneducated buyer. What kind of approach is it that you would support when dealing with an uneducated buyer?
I knew it would happen.
Take advantage of them. Education is a willfull endeavor and cannot be forced.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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