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1859-S Seated Dollar newp

OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

Thanks to @stealer for pointing this one out to me, was able to pick this up for a fraction of what chopmarked seated dollars usually go for (they are very rare with Chinese chopmarks). The reverse graffiti is unfortunate, but the coin is well-traveled and wouldn't have graded anyway.

Apparently the chopmark symbol is "mountain". I couldn't decipher anything interesting from the graffiti, to me it looks like THOeSl.

Anyone else have a seated dollar with chopmark, or have seen one?

Comments

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's a close-up of the chopmark

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,171 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congrats, Dan, great coin for your chopmarked set. I love the patina on that one!

  • LJenkins11LJenkins11 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it, thanks for sharing it.

  • CaptainBluntCaptainBlunt Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    Yes some of them were shipped
    to China. I saw an 1872-S Seated
    dollar with a number of chopmarks
    on both the obv. and rev.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019 2:25PM

    There are those coins that are rare for what they are and what they historically capture. Some coins have traveled in commerce and served a purpose that simply cannot be captured in a slab. Some coins such as the one which so happens to be the subject of this thread is in a league of its own.

    Congrats... This coin is an amazing piece of history.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019 2:11PM

    I don’t think the graffiti detract in the least. Well driven cars have door dings. That is great, wonder how many collectors have ever owned two chopped 59-s seated dollars

  • ChopmarkedTradesChopmarkedTrades Posts: 519 ✭✭✭✭✭

    An awesome pickup; the 1859-S $ deserves distinction as the first crown-sized coin issued by the US for foreign circulation, and its low mintage only adds to the allure. This is only the third example that I have seen with a chop, one other already in the collection of @OriginalDan, but another with a single chop across the eagle's right wing that I haven't seen outside of the catalog of the great Hal Walls collection.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,524 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019 3:16PM

    Nice low mintage coin with lots of personality. Good find. Edit to add @stealer did you a great favor.

  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for sharing her with us. This is only the 2nd 59s I’ve seen with a chop. Graffiti sucks but beggars can’t be choosy. When there is only 3 known... To own 2 of them is an awesome accomplishment. Congrats!

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    @OriginalDan said:

    Very nice pickup! Unfortunate about the graffiti on the back, but what can you do? Chops werent appreciated for probably over 100 years!

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Use of 1859-S dollars in various Chinese ports is documented in diplomatic letters among other places.

    I think a board member has written an article about this subject....Please step forward when you name is called. :)

  • DDRDDR Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congratulations, Dan! I love that coin, even with the graffeti. I am jealous.

  • DDRDDR Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is from a write-up in a Stack-Bowers auction several years ago on a non-chopmarked example:

    Alone among San Francisco Mint Liberty Seated dollars of the No Motto type, the 1859-S is an isolated issue most examples of which were produced for a single purpose. Of the 20,000 pieces struck in total, the first 15,000 coins delivered were intended solely for export. Indeed, the San Francisco-based firm of Bolton, Barren & Co. acquired 8,985 of these coins for use in the China trade. Those examples that went overseas -- 75% of the mintage -- were invariably lost through melting. Fortunately for today's collectors, the additional 5,000 pieces making up the total mintage were retained stateside and released into circulation on the West Coast.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps a love token: THO & SI

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice coin... I have always been interested in chopmarked trade dollars...I have Rose's book as well... Cheers, RickO

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,780 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool piece. Congrats to you for getting it. Stealer is a great friend for pointing you to it as well.

    Trade $'s
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:
    I don’t think the graffiti detract in the least. Well driven cars have door dings. That is great, wonder how many collectors have ever owned two chopped 59-s seated dollars

    Don't need 2 of them, but also enjoy holding them side by side. In case anyone is interested though, let me know. I'm not a hoarder and know how to share.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DDR said:
    This is from a write-up in a Stack-Bowers auction several years ago on a non-chopmarked example:

    Alone among San Francisco Mint Liberty Seated dollars of the No Motto type, the 1859-S is an isolated issue most examples of which were produced for a single purpose. Of the 20,000 pieces struck in total, the first 15,000 coins delivered were intended solely for export. Indeed, the San Francisco-based firm of Bolton, Barren & Co. acquired 8,985 of these coins for use in the China trade. Those examples that went overseas -- 75% of the mintage -- were invariably lost through melting. Fortunately for today's collectors, the additional 5,000 pieces making up the total mintage were retained stateside and released into circulation on the West Coast.

    Thanks for posting this David.

    To me the 1859-S dollar is the "first United States Trade Dollar". I wish more had survived from melting, with chopmarks to certify they fulfilled the intended purpose.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Use of 1859-S dollars in various Chinese ports is documented in diplomatic letters among other places.

    I think a board member has written an article about this subject....Please step forward when you name is called. :)

    Roger, if you can point me to any of those letters I'd love to read them.

  • CaptainBluntCaptainBlunt Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    RWB
    United States Consulate
    Hong Kong 10-September, 1859
    Sir:
    In reply to the communication of the Treasury Department, dated April 1st, 1859, in relation to the
    difference in the currency of this
    place, as compared to that of the
    United States, I beg to state...

    I have received some of the new
    coinage of silver dollars from
    San Francisco, and have had them
    tested by my Compradore, who informs me they will pass current here, if the Chinese in the interior
    can be induced to take them, but
    that it will take several years to
    introduce them.
    I am sir
    Very respectfully
    Signed James Keenan
    U.S. Consul

    First Trade Dollar
    Numistmatist Jan 2017

    (The Mexican dollar won the trade
    war against the Seated dollar)

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes....That's the article I was thinking of.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019 3:17PM

    @OriginalDan said:

    @RogerB said:
    Use of 1859-S dollars in various Chinese ports is documented in diplomatic letters among other places.

    Roger, if you can point me to any of those letters I'd love to read them.

    Here are low resolution PDFs. These are part of my database and not posted anywhere on-line. Let me know when you have them so I can delete the files from PCGS and not take up space. I've omitted the consular letter regarding St. Petersburg.

    PDF files removed.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks @RogerB, I have them now so you can remove them if you'd like. I look forward to reading through them, and thankfully the handwriting looks decent.

    Out of curiosity, why not include the letter re. St. Petersburg?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's the St Petersburg letter.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Roger. Do you already have all of these transcribed? If not, I'll take a stab at them.

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