BANNED from Vintage Breaks for telling the truth.
williplett
Posts: 471 ✭✭
I was given my outright ban today from the Vintage Breaks site. The reason given is that during a break of a pack of 86 Fleer basketball, I put in the chat some information about the known sequence of the packs. This information has been in the hobby for a long time.
Some other people chimed in and confirmed the known sequence and that that is why so many packs have ended up in slabs over the years.
The packs flip mid pack about 10% of the time and I have heard varying reports about whether or not a mid pack flip can yield a Jordan due to the Jordan's spot on the sheet.
I was informed by their office manager that some people in the break were not happy once the known sequence information came to light. I have been given "time outs" before for talking "inside baseball" about how things work.
One thing I pride myself in is that never once...even when pushed...did they say I said anything that wasn't true. They just didn't that information in their chat. They want to keep the chat closely censored so nothing that interferes with their message gets out. The office manager informed me that now two people are assigned to monitor the chat and ban people that say thing they don't want said.
Comments
Knowledge is power. Sad that they wouldn’t be completely up front with their customers buying slots. They’ll never get my business.
I don't believe in the theory that graded packs cannot be legit due to sequencing because I have pulled a PSA 8.5 Jordan RC from a PSA 7 pack. If it was BBCE offering the pack, I would assume they know the front and the back, but others are likely hit or miss.
I also have seen a mid-pack flip reveal a Jordan RC, but not sure how uncommon it is to provide that sequence.
would someone please enlighten me on this 86F sequence?
I had no idea
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Sounds like they want people in the dark about certain things.
Spoiling the fun for people is a jerk move.
You can 100% pull a Jordan if the pack sequence flips.
Robb
I don’t agree with the spoiling part of Robb’s comment, but Robb is dead on about the sequence flip yielding Jordan. I’m not sure where you got the 10% yield part of your information, but that part is not correct.
I don’t think you deserved to be banned for speaking factually about the sequencing of the cards. It’s pretty common knowledge if your heavily into the set.
I collect: 80’s Rookies and 86 Fleer Basketball
Sort of reminds me a little bit of various state's scratch off lottery tickets, advertising say five big jackpots in a group of lottery tickets. However sometime during the run of that particular group of tickets, the state knows that all five jackpots have already been hit. Yet they are still selling that same group of lottery tickets with the same advertisement of hitting a jackpot, when it would be impossible to do so.
I think the states try to avoid that situation now. When the state's advertised scratch off lottery ticket jackpots have been hit in that group, they pull the rest of that group's tickets off the market. But call it whatever ya wish what they used to do, sell lottery tickets under the guise of a jackpot, when it was impossible to hit it.
If a sports card pack breakage company is selling a pack break under the guise of a "jackpot card" possibly in the pack, when they know it is impossible for that card to be in there. Well, call that whatever ya wish as well.
Even roughly based on 10%, with 3-4 Jordans per box, it would yield a 35% chance that Jordan is in a flip. This makes packs with an identified front card that are PSA graded worth more than a pack from a Frankenstein box, IMO.
What??
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
Huh? How do you get 35%?
Arthur
Another of these pack breaking websites is advertising a 1971 OPC baseball pack, stating a possible Ryan or Clemente pull. It is factually incorrect of them to say that, because the packs is in the wrong series.
I forgot a step in the math apparently. I think the odds are only slightly less than a pack having the jordan sequence as a mid-pack flip revealing a Jordan.
Can you get a Jordan from a slabbed pack....yes. Are the odds much lower than from an untouched box...yes. The point is that there is a sequence and telling people that there is a sequence shouldn't be a huge deal. I'm not a dealer....a very part time weekend dealer as I set up one small local show a month. But, I can tell you this.... I want my regular customers to be as knowledgeable as possible. It is completely unethical to knowingly screw over your customers. If you want people that buy from you to be sheep....great. I'm sure you can sleep well at night on that soft, comfy pillow the extra money has purchased for you. Personally, I would rather be fair with people and provide knowledge when I can. There's a reason they won't show the front AND back of cello or rack packs because people with knowledge will have a good idea of what is in the packs. Anyway, all I have to say is #FreeFizzox
I have almost definitive proof that I know exactly a where the sequences flip. Several years ago, Steve and I watched a box get opened, and I was recording every pack that was opened. Based on that, I was able to determine where the sequence flips and where it will flip to next on the sheet.
Interesting
Can this only be determined with an untouched box where the packs were in undisturbed order? Or can it be done with any random pack containing the “flip sequence”?
Just curious. Don’t need the details
The constant and overwhelming theme of my phone conversations with Vintage Breaks management was to keep any “insider” info out of chat room for fear of the effect it could have on new customers.
This. Both sides are ignorant. If your paying $100 for a chance at a jordan, in a pack that has no chance of a jordan, you're a fool, sorry. If your breaking '86 fleer basketball and not disclosing sequence, you are just as bad.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
It can be done with any pack.
Very interesting thread. I did not know any of this about sequencing either.
Yeah, sequencing and cherry picking were most definitely known since the 80s...I'm surprised no one has listed any of the sequences anywhere.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
So 90% of us know the regular sequencing. Mind disclosing the mid-pack flip sequence that leads to Jordan? I know there are several mid-pack flips that could miss Jordan, but how many end up in his sequence?
I was okay with keeping swearing out of the chat room. I was okay with keeping politics and religion out of the chat room. But, keeping talk about the products and breaks themselves out of the chat room? That is foolish in my opinion.
This is like defending the Nigerian Prince email scam. "Don't talk about the fact that no one will see any money, ever. Let the fools dream a little..."
Ruining people’s fun? Getting fleeced is fun?
Hey, if anyone ever sees me getting taken advantage of monetarily, please smarten me up...no matter how much “fun” it appears I am having.
Vintage Breaks censors the chat to keep the sheep in line.
This is a foolish post
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I can’t believe I just read this. Breaks advertising a “possible card” and banning anyone and any talk that may lead to ruling out said card, is completely unethical. It’s running a business using a false pretense.
The more I read this, the more and more it sounds like you either work for vintage breaks or you run vintage breaks. Ridiculous.
For competitive reasons you will never see this.
I remember the ads in SCD back in the 80s advertising such.
Buying into breaks is sort of like playing the lottery and the lottery - from a mathematical point of view - is a large waste of money. You could make the argument that while fun, those participating are being taken advantage of monetarily. I don’t think most people would pay $100 for a $10 common but 90% of participants in a break do just that in the end.
I collect for fun and have bought into a few. Because it’s fun.
Read into this what you will.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
All who have compared this to the losing odds that come with gambling or the lottery, by just now talking about it, have just found themselves banned from every casino and convenience store in America. Haha!
The issue isn't that people want to participate in the breaks anyway, even knowing the long odds, it's that someone would take issue with someone else pointing out those long odds. There just may be an ignorant participant or 2 that would appreciate the information.
Wow now that’s a sweet super power to have!
Makes sense mathematically. If the collation pattern starts at a certain number then it’s destined to flip to the next pattern.
Be right back, going to rip a box to crack the code haha
Yes I’m still confused by this too, please show your math.
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
Is this something that can be 100% relied upon based on a single box break?
Arthur
Vintage Breaks usually has between 30-50 people watching the breaks.
Of those 30-50, a fair number choose not to chat or chime in very infrequently.
Vintage Breaks is so worried about what is potentially being said that the manager says they are going to have TWO people monitor the chat from now on.
Who wants to be scrutinized like that in a chat room?
Since this thread will be closed soon, I’d suggest you just take your business elsewhere. People are entitled to run a business as they see fit in this country. Educated consumers get more for their money with respect to every product on the market including baseball cards.
However, if too many people learn this the global economy will collapse. 😉
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Why would this thread be closed?
Do you think Vintage Breaks will try to censor the truth here too?
1969 TOPPS BASEBALL 1ST SERIES RACK PACK 36 SPOT RANDOM CARD (POSSIBLE PSA 10 HANK AARON WORTH $20,000+ & ROBERTO CLEMENTE WORTH $15,000+!)
In stock SKU:1969 Topps BB Rack Pack 1
Be the first to review this product
1969 Topps Baseball 1st Series Rack Pack 36 Spot Random Card. Look for a Possible PSA 10 Hank Aaron worth $20,000+ and a PSA 10 Roberto Clemente worth $15,000+! Also look for a possible PSA 10 Johnny Bench 2nd Year worth $8,000+! Possible PSA 10 Ernie Banks, Joe Morgan, and Graig Nettles Rookie each worth $1,500+! There are also 12 different possible leader cards all featuring stars and HOFers like Roberto Clemente, Hank Aaron, Pete Rose, Yaz, etc! There are lots of PSA 10's in the 1st series each worth $1,500-$3,000! 1 card on the bottom of the rack pack exhibits light wear and will not be part of this break (card #8). 36 cards in this rack pack.
$325.00
The above pasted from their website.
Wow, $325 for this? Seems to me like their price for "lottery tickets" has gone way up.
I'm guessing that's an actual pic of the rack pack and not a stock photo. If it is, then that Aaron shown with that centering has absolutely no chance whatsoever of receiving a 10. It could be the plastic wrap, but the bottom left corner appears to be badly dinged. If the card is a 5, it's a $50 card at best, that is if you even get it in their lottery.
Also looks to me as though father time over 50 years, with paper pressing against plastic, has frayed the corners down to 7 type cards. Maybe the inside cards are a little better. So the commons are like $10 or $15 cards at best. In any event, even if ya get lucky, win the Aaron, and it grades a 7, it's still only around a $100 card.
Paying $325 for a chance to get lucky and receive a $100 card, sure seems like pretty bad math in my opinion. LOL
Ha! No.
But part of this place has become less about complaining and more about just enjoying and sharing cards.
I, for one, appreciate your post. I will be careful as a result of your post to do more homework if I join one again.
You are obviously not happy about being banned from there but again it is up to business owner and customer to determine whom they’d like to do business with.
There are lots of boards out there that promote and allow criticism of third party graders, auction houses, card sellers, etc.
But I think the general feeling is that this place is on the upswing because we leave such negativity to those other boards.
I do not speak for anyone but myself here but I do think there are more than a few folks out there who share this viewpoint.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
The truth can be a tricky thing. There will always be those who want to hide it for their own gain. Personally, I am all for the truth being known.
OK, guys. The message has come across on this thread. I believe that I understand the situation and can see why the OP could be frustrated, but it boils down to "their house, their rules." There are some boards that have a free-for-all mentality and pretty much anything goes. There are others where things are a bit more regulated. I see it as kind of like going out to eat. You decide what type of food you are in the mood for and then head to that type of restaurant. Once you understand the general rules of each board/chat room, then you can head to the one that allows what you are feeling at the moment.
I am going to close this down now before things get get too negative. Let's get back to talking about cards. Have a great Sunday, folks! I'll be spending most of it at the lacrosse fields.