Mexico: 8-reales "Pillar dollar", 1761-Mo-MM, Calico-888, PCGS AU50, toned

lordmarcovan

(Yes, a World coin, but one listed in the Redbook, after all.)

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/30410618

Boosibri

Wrong forum

ricko

Very nice coin LordM.... Good to see you posting here... Cheers, RickO

Broadstruck

Worth it just for the LM "mystery goodies"

CaptHenway

@Boosibri said:
Wrong forum

I will allow it on a technicality because of the Redbook coin, which Ken Bressett still owns BTW. I asked him once if he would like to sell it, but his son Phil has dibs on it.

CaptHenway

And there is a historical significance to a 1761 Pillar Dollar that significantly changed American Numismatics. Note that on the reverse the word HISPAN is split by a small cross atop the crown between the "H" and the "I." Coins of 1760 and earlier have the cross between the "I" and the "S." This relatively minor design change resulted from new design hubs being sent out from Spain, and lasted until the end of the Pillar coinage.

One of John J. Ford's more notorious fabrications were the "HISP ET ID" gold bars, alleged to have been lost on a sunken galleon in the early 1740's. These concoctions were stamped with a counterfeit Pillar Dollar reverse die, apparently to make them more interesting to coin collectors, and the die showed the 1761-on type. A scholar in Mexican numismatics used this 1761 design change to prove that the "HISP ET ID" bars were anachronistic fakes, and thus began the downfall of Ford's reputation.

TwoKopeiki

@CaptHenway said:

@Boosibri said:
Wrong forum

I will allow it on a technicality because of the Redbook coin, which Ken Bressett still owns BTW. I asked him once if he would like to sell it, but his son Phil has dibs on it.

I think @Boosibri comment has more to do with this being a BST post, since he's championed numerous US registry sets containing world coins circulated in colonies and early US.

OriginalDan

We should probably give LordM a break though, he’s new here.

markelman1125

I think it’s a U.s. forum discussion because Spanish reals were the first U. S. Dollars 💵

markelman1125

This is a cool escudo that I have relating to Spanish empire coins 👍

asheland

Lord M is back!

Boosibri

It looks like he is trying to sell the coin hence just noting that he potentially meant to move this to the BST

CaptHenway

Ah. Didn’t even notice that part. Was thinking along the lines of the 1776 Guinea thread.

jgenn

@CaptHenway said:
And there is a historical significance to a 1761 Pillar Dollar that significantly changed American Numismatics. Note that on the reverse the word HISPAN is split by a small cross atop the crown between the "H" and the "I." Coins of 1760 and earlier have the cross between the "I" and the "S." This relatively minor design change resulted from new design hubs being sent out from Spain, and lasted until the end of the Pillar coinage.

Hubs, in the modern sense, where not used until well after the colonial period. Perhaps you meant to say matrix block, however the matrix block did not dictate the position of the cross between the letters of the legend. Separate punches were created for individual letters and design elements, so it was up to the die setters to determine how things were arranged. By 1763 the Mexico City die setters had standardized on positioning the cross between H and I.

BustDMs

@CaptHenway said:
And there is a historical significance to a 1761 Pillar Dollar that significantly changed American Numismatics. Note that on the reverse the word HISPAN is split by a small cross atop the crown between the "H" and the "I." Coins of 1760 and earlier have the cross between the "I" and the "S." This relatively minor design change resulted from new design hubs being sent out from Spain, and lasted until the end of the Pillar coinage.

One of John J. Ford's more notorious fabrications were the "HISP ET ID" gold bars, alleged to have been lost on a sunken galleon in the early 1740's. These concoctions were stamped with a counterfeit Pillar Dollar reverse die, apparently to make them more interesting to coin collectors, and the die showed the 1761-on type. A scholar in Mexican numismatics used this 1761 design change to prove that the "HISP ET ID" bars were anachronistic fakes, and thus began the downfall of Ford's reputation.

Ford still has quite a large reputation 😉

jgenn

Example matrix and punch from Bogotá (courtesy of jfransch).

lordmarcovan

D'oh!

Oh, geez, I'm so sorry I posted this on the US Coins when I thought I was posting it on the BST!

But I'm happy to see it sparked some discussion. I'll edit out the for sale info in the OP (it is pending sale now anyway).

< * sheepish expression * >

lordmarcovan

On the subject of escudos and their fractions from the same era (albeit straying from the Redbook now), I scooped up this beautiful little half-escudo a couple of years ago, for under 200 bucks raw, from a seller in Israel.

Krause value is $500 in XF, as the 1759-JB happens to be the key date for the KM-378 type. And PCGS gave it XF40, so essentially I now have a key date, pop. 1/0 piece of Spanish gold with some great orangish toning, which was the main thing that made it catch my eye. I'm in it for $239.90 after slabbing, so less than half catalog.

It is one of my happier purchases. I was surprised that it is the only example graded thus far.

(And no, this one is not for sale- I do apologize again about the accidental spam that created this thread.)

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/85188590

CaptHenway

Lord M! Ten lashes with a wet Escudo!

lordmarcovan

@CaptHenway said:
Lord M! Ten lashes with a wet Escudo!

I'll take that punishment, particularly if there are ten escudos involved! (You have to use a fresh one for each lash.)

jedm

I like it!!

EagleEye

@CaptHenway said:
And there is a historical significance to a 1761 Pillar Dollar that significantly changed American Numismatics. Note that on the reverse the word HISPAN is split by a small cross atop the crown between the "H" and the "I." Coins of 1760 and earlier have the cross between the "I" and the "S." This relatively minor design change resulted from new design hubs being sent out from Spain, and lasted until the end of the Pillar coinage.

One of John J. Ford's more notorious fabrications were the "HISP ET ID" gold bars, alleged to have been lost on a sunken galleon in the early 1740's. These concoctions were stamped with a counterfeit Pillar Dollar reverse die, apparently to make them more interesting to coin collectors, and the die showed the 1761-on type. A scholar in Mexican numismatics used this 1761 design change to prove that the "HISP ET ID" bars were anachronistic fakes, and thus began the downfall of Ford's reputation.

lordmarcovan

@Eagleeye - If I post any more accidental spam, you may bonk me over the head with that thing. I will die happy.

topstuf

Hey @lordmarcovan will you make change for my 2 Escudo?
That would be 4 halvsies like yours.

TwoKopeiki

@topstuf said:
Hey @lordmarcovan will you make change for my 2 Escudo?
That would be 4 halvsies like yours.

I'll give you 16 Reales For it

lordmarcovan

@topstuf said:
Hey @lordmarcovan will you make change for my 2 Escudo?
That would be 4 halvsies like yours.

Oohhh... crustilicious!

MattTheRiley

@lordmarcovan you still have this 8R? Willing to sell or trade?

lordmarcovan

@MattTheRiley said:
@lordmarcovan you still have this 8R? Willing to sell or trade?

Sorry, it's gone. Sold it on BST.