Which causes more harm to the hobby? Auction shilling or coin doctoring?
coinlieutenant
Posts: 9,319 ✭✭✭✭✭
For better or for worse, auction records are becoming more and more of a mark to market type of pricing guide. The subject line then becomes an interesting topic for discussion.
Talk amongst yourselves.
0
Comments
I don't know, but it's worth pointing out that there's a difference between doing harm to the business, doing harm to the market, and doing harm to the hobby.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Shill bids are harder for me to detect than doctoring, but Chinese counterfeits eclipse both of those.
Shilling, although affecting the price, doesn't make permanent changes to the coins themselves. So there's that.
True, and even though auction shilling causes the buyer to pay more than they otherwise would have paid, it can never cause them to pay more than they are willing to pay for a coin.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
As long as there have been auctions, shilling has been a part of it.
No matter the venue-- internet, live, country auction, coin club auction--- the potted plant is weary from bidding.
Docs ruin the coins....... the very substrate of the hobby. There are plenty of ways to acquire a coin outside of an auction. Besides, there’s an upper limit to what shills can do. If 90% of the things in an auction don’t truly sell, there’s no point in anyone being involved.
Shilling is temporary. Coin doctoring in many cases is permanent.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Coin doctoring and as said above the fakes (which some coins become after being doctored).
I would say the counterfeit coin business is the largest threat to the hobby, the business and the market. Doctoring and shilling are certainly undesirable, but the counterfeit coin effect is large and quickly growing. Cheers, RickO
What happens when you doctor a counterfeit coin? Does it make that coin nearly impossible to detect as a counterfeit? Seems like it would be a double whammy.
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
Shills have no affect on what a responsible bidder pays for a given coin. Doctoring on the other hand fools all but the best.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
I pick my price, not the shills. Shills have no effect on me, I could care less.
Counterfeit dies could become a problem tho.
<<< Auction shilling or coin doctoring? >>>
Seems to me like an apples to oranges comparison.
In my view, coin doctoring ruins a coin - that is unacceptable.
Auction shilling has been going on since the advent of auctions. Frankly, i don't care if the auction is shilled or not. I look at the price, and if I like the coin at the price, then I bid. If I don't win it, then there's always next time for the coins in my price range.
Unless money is no object, patience is a requirement for coin collecting.
Per John Albanese, the damage done to the coin business by over-grading is "orders of magnitude" greater than doctoring.
Two orders of magnitude is 100X.
Shilling? In major sales, little influence.
__Country auctions, Ebay, etc? .I pity the fool who doesn't already have a final price in mind
neither.
Worrying and focusing on stickers instead of the coin imo.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Although not one of the choices, my vote goes to cac as causing more harm.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Counterfeit coins and/or holders. As the ability to identify counterfeits diminishes, if counterfeit coins/holders regularly start showing up, confidence in the coin market could cease.
Doctoring. If harshly done—tooling, smoothing, whizzing, etc—a shame that a coin is ruined, but generally easy to spot. If mildly done, could be market acceptable or not. As the line between the 2 blurs (as coin doctors improve) confidence in coin market could diminish. If one is concerned (coin dipped bright or coin toning in odd manor) don’t buy the coin.
Over grading. Always was and will be an issue in both raw and slabbed coins. If one isn’t happy with the assigned coin at the price, don’t buy it.
Shilling. A potential problem in any auction. There are very few must own coins. If the price exceeds one’s comfort level, don’t chase it.
Stickers. Does the sticker lead to a higher price or are higher prices associated with nicer coins which therefore sticker? If, because of the sticker, the price exceeds one’s comfort level, don’t buy it.
Bessie Braddock to Winston Churchill: "Winston, you are drunk, and what’s more you are disgustingly drunk."
“My dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly” replied Churchill.
Shill is drunk, doctoring is ugly.
Can o' worms!
Coin doctoring and counterfeits far exceed the damage done by shill bidding. Shill bidding is still crooked.
IMO, coin doctoring by far, and it's not even close. Between artificial toning and over-dipping, many otherwise nice pieces are ruined every day. Very depressing.
Dave
The markets need transparency, honesty and intellectual rigor to operate well. Even with all the technological advances, it is still sometimes hard to know what you are dealing with due to more artful players capable of gaming the system. Auction shilling shouldn't be that hard to detect; doctoring can be a tough ones but the major graders, NGC, PCGS and cac seem to be good at identifying doctored or AT material.
You have to define shilling first. If I see my collector or dealer friend bidding and back off (w/no prearrangement) is that shilling?
As for the OP I'd say coin doctoring is worse, because at least with the shilling there's enough market info out there to tell if you are in the ballpark on a bid. Also the various auction venues compete against each other, so if one becomes known for shilling it will cost the auction house in the long run.
China counterfeits, Counterfeit SLABS, Doctoring then shills
100% Positive BST transactions
I see the point. Overgrading also feeds on itself. Higher pops for X coin in Y grade = drop in value of said coin. This leads to more submissions in search of higher grades for a particular coin to obtain its former value. That, and people exiting the hobby.
I have been the process of going through my coins and resubmitting some of them which I thought exception for the grade when I bought them and were graded 20 years ago, or longer. I am sure many people far more active in the hobby than I have been doing this more often, and on a larger scale.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I will vote for staples in 2x2 flips....they cause more damage.
...it would really suck if there were only doctored coins to shill...lipstick on a dead pig
Here is a likely shill on ebay with all the other results generally in the $2500 or so range, this one is over $3100 with a couple hours left: https://tinyurl.com/yx8lmejt How else do you explain it?
Any chance that this one would cac? https://tinyurl.com/y5jt6j4v
Shilling has been historically noted going as far back as Roman slave auctions.
I have never been a victim of Shill bidding, because my highest bid is the amount I am willing to pay. While it may have happened to me, it is like it never has happened to me.
Coin doctoring would be like putting inferior wine into a very collectable bottle, creating fake matching serial numbers on a Corvette engine and body parts, or putting a shredding machine into a Banksy art piece...wait, the Banksy piece is actually worth more now. Scratch that last example.
<<< Per John Albanese, the damage done to the coin business by over-grading is "orders of magnitude" greater than doctoring. >>>
And I'll bet he knows a great service to address this 'damage' and extract millions of dollars from the hobby to further line his pockets, eh?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
If people didn't think the service he provides was of value, they wouldn't send their coins to him. It's not like he's holding a gun to anybody's head to get their money.
Problem, not doctored, coins sold to the unwashed masses when it comes time to sell.