Do you believe the crossover service is a sucker bet?
Luxor
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I've heard so many stories of individuals sending in NGC coins for crossover (sometimes more than once) only to have the coin not cross, and then crack it out and send it in again and it crosses or even upgrades. Some say this may be because the NGC holder is hazy or hairlined and doesn't show the coin well, and others have stated it's more of a one-upmanship corporate political game where they will only cross a coin that is an absolute high end model coin for the grade. If for whatever reason you had to have your NGC coin in a PCGS holder, what's your plan?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
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I read these threads for the fun of it....interesting to see what happens to some coins. I don't believe there is any politics involved and your theory about grading through plastic might be spot on. Personally I have asked for a cross over from small ANACS to PCGS and it went down 1/2 point....disappointed for sure. Only one I've ever attempted.
bob
My experience has been "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again". No cracking involved. There are a few coins that just are not going to cut it. I doubt that cracking would help those.
your OP is based upon "hearing so many stories" so I dont put much weight on "stories" unless backed by specific information. Bottom line is that generally PCGS is tighter than NGC and that is why PCGS coins generally trade for more.
" Bottom line is that generally PCGS is tighter than NGC and that is why PCGS coins generally trade for more. "
That may have been true in the past however from what I've seen in recent times NGC is now on par and grades very similar to PCGS.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
In my experience NGC + CAC will cross.
NGC w/o CAC...I've never tried it
My Saint Set
I think it's a sucker's bet. Crackouts have a far higher success rate. I don't play the registry plastic loyalty game, anymore, on either side of the street....completely fed up with both. As long as my coins are either NGC or PCGS certified, then I'm happy.
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https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I have about a 70% crossover rate, but I only send NGC coins that should cross.
I sent in two crack out coins to our host; 1818 50C and a 1849 $1. I just knew that these were "shoo-ins"...the half dollar came back one grade higher (AU53 to 55) and the Seated Dollar came back AU Details "Questionable Color". I don't play the "crack-out" game anymore. I send 'em in their holders and throw caution (and my money) into the wind.
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Back in the day I played the game. I won some and lost some. I don't play any more.
FWIW I think the odds are considerably better than they were for the "sucker" Reconsideration special a couple quarters ago.
Crossover success has more to do with the individual, their eye and knowledge about what they choose to cross then any conspiracies or stories about luck and lack there of.
I've crossed a several coins with "cross at any numerical grade". Some crossed at the same NGC grade, some crossed one grade lower (e.g. VF30 to VF25). Never had one cross to a higher grade. In about 25% of the cases they came back in the NGC slab but with a Details insert in the package. Based on this, I think PCGS is stricter than NGC about the Details thing, but only marginally stricter on grades.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Recently sent this to our host for crossover at same grade, did not cross. Want to guess why?
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ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
AT?
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AT?
"Questionable Color"
Interesting since the coin can be traced back to 2005, same color in an old NGC holder.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All of Us
ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
ALT?
I'd show expensive coins to smart numismatists before trying to crack out and submit which is your best chance. Stereotypes and judgments are unfortunately part of life and the coin will be judge in the holder for crossover.
If you had the same coins in PCGS holders to start with and tried to cross them into NGC holders, you might have had similar results. And reached the conclusion that NGC is stricter than PCGS about the Details thing, but only marginally stricter on grades. 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Crossover success has more to do with the individual, their eye and knowledge about what they choose to cross then any conspiracies or stories about luck and lack there of.
this is POTD material. just from a point of logic, it is to PCGS's advantage to have every coin in their holder, so it doesn't make sense that they would engage in some conspiracy to deny crossovers. I have been slowly sending in SC$'s under the crossover service and have found that PCGS tends to agree with the assigned NGC grade on what I send them.
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@blitzdude
Their sauce does not work as well as it did 15 years ago.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All of Us
ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
Mustard.
Zaxby’s sauce. Seriously.
Totally false information and hype spread by the plastic fan boys. Each company has its own way of grading and each looks at; and values; certain coin traits differently. That is why some coins do or do not cross, it has nothing whatsoever to do with tighter, better, or any other yarn you want to spin. But don't let the truth get in the way of your story.
As to the op's question no its not a sucker bet if you are honest with yourself on the qualities of the coins being sent in and also understand that both services are cautious on crossovers so that no surprises are found once the coin is ok'd for crossover and cracked at the grading company.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I've submitted 30 coins (from NGC, ANACS and ICG) for crossover to PCGS since I started my set in 2016. Of those, 24 crossed (22 at the same grade). For what my small sample is worth, they have been in general agreement 80% of the time, and in lockstep 73% of the time.
I'd consider my marriage to be fairly harmonious overall, but I'm not sure that my wife and I could claim that high of an average.
qc
It all depends on the coin. If the price spread between grades is narrow, I'll crack and submit it. For bigger ticket items or where the price spread is large, I'll do a crossover. I have had some good experience with crossover submissions, but I haven't done a crossover in several months preferring to submit raw generally because there is no 1% surcharge.
All my NGC Star coins have crossed
All of my NGC CAC coins have crossed
Some of my NGC fatties have crossed that CAC never saw
I had a handful of NGC coins that didn’t CAC and also didn’t cross
I’ve had to have some of my NGC coins reholdered at NGC before I sent them to PCGS as they were optically less then desirable
All in all it was a VERY profitable experience
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My 1995-W Proof Silver Eagle crossed..... Went from PF67 to PF69. No complaints here.
I have been reading the 'crossover myth' for many years... all sorts of theories and stories. Crack, don't crack and didn't, then did ... etc., etc., and always it comes down to theories about politics or grading methods. Really, it is more based on grading opinions... the opinion of the owner, the opinion of the grader (and different submissions will likely get different graders). Opinions are not standards - Cheers, RickO
Rattler>NGC>PCGS
A sucker bet?
No.
Each coin speaks for itself, but grading companies hear different things. Pay attention and learn.
Look at it in the context that PCGS/NGC are assigning values and not grades.
A bit random considering the (qualified graders) team approach, finalizer, etc...
When the next grade could mean a $3000 bump in value, then yes it is a crapshoot in my unqualified opinion.
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You can try to state that PCGS and NGC are just "different" and one is not better than the other but the market has clearly put more value generally on PCGS coins over NGC. This is an objective fact and not hype. Doug Winter recently wrote an article on his site about pricing and states there are multiple levels of price with the tiers being:
1) PCGS and CAC
2) NGC and CAC
3) PCGS and non CAC
4) NGC and non CAC
You can argue about the respective criteria of the grading services but clearly PCGS coins generally bring more than NGC (I use the word "generally" since there are always exceptions).
I am not a crossover or sticker hobbyist. I want keep fixed overhead costs low.
At times I have been forced into crossover situations to Pcgs / damaged NGC holder, anacs / ICG holders. Occasional rattler crackout.
I crack the coins, send in. It is expensive and more likely than not I will take a hit.
I have a submission of 2 been sitting around for weeks - NGC coin cracked from damaged Holder Holder (ms 65 common WLH) and ICG coin (1923-S MS63 Peace Dol) cracked 4 cross / upgrade. Unless the ICG coin upgrades lol I will lose money. I write TPG costs to expense reveal coins in new holders to CDN bid (at new grade) and hope not much loss.
While I have mostly Pcgs coins and have many ngc. Some anacs / ICG stuff (about a dozen) bought here and there not worth bother of cross slab cost plus fees and shipping wb more than my cost in most of them. I prefer PCGS but offered other TPG in lump sum deals. I may discount anacs / ICG 10 pct if fav cost plus. Don’t own any really big ticket stuff where material blue sheet delta to even worry about cross (Pcgs vs NGC). I would go broke playing Holder / crossover game. About 96 pct my slabbed inventory PCGS / NGC, most of that PCGS.
My customers online and shows buy coins from all 4 TPG. Some may prefer PCGS or NGC only. In my view (based on over 25 years of bourse room experience (plus online since 1998) it is the coin that sells not necessarily the Holder (as long it’s PCGS / NGC). In pricing any CAC material I have I refer to the CAC bid in the sheet.
Crossover game like poker. Better have a hot hand. Just call me a 2 percenter - if a coin greater than 2 pct of my total numismatic investment I probably should not be buying it. Not a bad parameter to set. Now where do I get my 2 percenter T shirt?
I sent 19 Anacs all crossed and 2 upgraded,
I go by the coin not the holder
Saved me some typing. POTD awarded.
Could be POTY, but the threads and the fears will nevertheless keep on coming.
That's healthy.... good time to be skeptical
On more expensive coins, the odds demand multiple tries.
Rick, can I take your comments to mean that you agree with the part of the post you quoted, as follows: "it is to PCGS's advantage to have every coin in their holder," ?
If so, I must disagree. There are many coins, which for various reasons, they might not want in their holders - at least at the currently assigned grades. And I'd say the same about NGC with respect to some PCGS coins. Wouldn't each company prefer that certain low end/sub par (whatever you want to call them) coins remain in the holders of their major competitor?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@don129 said: "My 1995-W Proof Silver Eagle crossed..... Went from PF67 to PF69."
I'd say someone at the second TPGS missed something big time.
Who I get a laugh at are the folks who send a "Detailed" coin attempting to get a cross to a straight grade.
To the point that NGC or PCGS "may not want" a coin in their holder, in the interest of rationality if a coin does not have problems that preclude a numerical grade, why wouldn't they want to charge for the service and put it in their holders? What is so special about their label and holder that they "don't want" a coin in their holder? They have a duty to numismatics to call the grade as they see it if it is a genuine coin. This type of snooty attitude reminds me of a country club that "doesn't want" certain people because the club is just too good to accept them. I never have understood such reasoning. There are plenty of ugly and borderline coins in all the holders.
Not a sucker's bet, except for the visually impaired. And let's face it.... many are.
It would be interesting to do an experiment where you start a group of X PCGS coins and X NGC coins, cross them both to the other grading company. Anything that crosses goes in 1 pile, anything that doesn't goes in the other pile. Then try to cross back the ones that originally crossed. We hear about NGC -> PCGS crosses because that's what everyone does so some take it to mean that PCGS is stricter because not all of them cross. Rarely do we hear about the reverse, which would be an interesting data point to have.
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Don't you sometimes see coins which you feel are over-graded or which you believe should have received a details grade? A grading company can decline to cross coins and at the same time, still fulfill its duty to numismatics and the submitter, without being guilty of having a "snooty attitude".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I've crossed lots of old small holdered ANACS coins, and many upgraded (VF20 to VF25, or VF35 to XF40, for example). I noticed nothing 'snooty' myself.
Dave
I was just speaking to the point that due to how a coin "looks" they may not want it in their holder, not problems.
If you set it at "crossover at any (numerical) grade" that should not prevent an objectively considered non-problem coin from grading.
Gosh its on the internet so it must be true, lol. Just what does the subject of pricing have to do with this thread anyway? Seriously its impossible to take anything you say as creditable because you have no objectivity. You recently made a comment on a CAC thread that you started where you stated you would only buy PCGS/CAC coins period, that is not a coin collector you are an investor that buys plastic and stickers. Hey nothing wrong with that, its your money so do what you want, I like CAC and collect old holders. But it just shows that your not looking at coins objectively, anyone that has decided to without question ignore 85% of the coin market cannot be taken seriously. And as an investor you have a vested interest in promoting the brand you have chosen to buy correct? I also noticed that you didn't prove your statement with a link, can you? Or was it just wishful thinking on your part.
I've never met Mr Winter and I'm sure that he is a fine fellow but he deals in a specific segment; gold coins only; currently he has 19 coins in inventory. I'm not sure that anyone who deals in one small segment of coins with a very limited inventory and targeted cliental is the one and only source for the overall coin market dynamics. Personally I like to get data from unbiased sources such as auction pricing data, hard objective results that have no bias. The reality is that at one time what you said was true; however it came about due to clever marketing and other dynamics which have nothing to do with grading parity, and speaks nothing about the topic of this thread. What is also true is that the pricing gap has shrunk dramatically in the past few years for the broader coin market, I believe your perspective skews your thoughts and results. I recently was researching a date and grade where the last five examples sold for each brand the highest price paid was for a non CAC NGC coin. I'm sure you will say sure that's one of the anomalies but it's not; as I research over multiple series and dates I am finding that prices are becoming very close to the point of being statistically nominal quite often.
And by the way the op's question had nothing to do with values it is about the crossover, crackout game and grading parity.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Its fine that you have your own opinion even though I disagree with most of what you say. If you want to talk about credibility I will let readers decide themselves when you make comments such as Mr Winter's opinion is suspect since he only deals in a specific segment with "very limited inventory." However, where I will say you are flat out wrong is when you say I am not a collector but an investor. Sorry but I have collected coins for decades. I read everything about coins that I can get my hands on because I love the hobby. I go to shows mostly to talk coins not to buy. I do much research about the history of the coins I collect. Your jump to the conclusion that I am an investor because I prefer PCGS and CAC is without logic. I would not jump to any conclusions about your objectivity for instance just because your Lincoln cent collection has the majority of coins in NGC holders....
If so, I must disagree.
Mark, just to clarify. what I am referring to is properly graded, problem free coins in non-PCGS holders which some believe PCGS DNC's to keep the money flowing. I just think that's a ridiculous way to think. it is to the advantage of PCGS(and NGC, of course) to have the best coins in their capsules, so why not do it when warranted??
back to my NGC crossovers of SC$'s: I can go back and add things up but the percentage is high, maybe 75%+ or three-out-of-four that I submit. whenever I have a DNC I look it over closely and when I'm convinced there are no problems I resubmit with "at any grade" and about half cross at the same grade, but they all grade, I feel that with some DNC's they see something they are unclear about and err on the side of caution because once the capsule is cracked they have no choice.