@MFeld said:
And yet, some of us have different opinions, which are based on in hand examination of the coin. Admittedly, we can’t prove that are opinions are correct.
Do you agree with the designation? I have posted about this same issue a few times on the forum: How does one distinguish between a "specimen" strike versus a well struck proof like business strike? As a former PL collector, I have seen many business strike coins that compare favorably to proof coins, but like some of the undocumented specimen coins appear to fall within a normal range of quality you might see from normal production. In many cases the PL/SP distinction is trivial, but the difference is always tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars.
It’s been a long time since I last saw the coin, but yes, I agreed with its designation at that time. The best way I can answer your question regarding “How does one distinguish...” is to say that when I last viewed it, if it hadn't had a mintmark, I wouldn’t have questioned its status as a Proof.
The above notwithstanding, I can understand skepticism about any such coin and designation for which there is no documentation. And once coins are awarded special designations despite the absence of such documentation, it can be a very slippery slope.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Regarding Insider2's question about "specimen", etc. designations.
Allow me to add that most so-called specimens I've been shown fit within the normal range of coins struck from production dies. Absent a document stating some coins was made for a special purpose - such as the first 12 1878 Morgan dollars made at the Philadelphia Mint, of the first Morgan dollar made at San Francisco - they cannot be called "specimen" or anything else. To do so is to destroy any useful meaning of the term "Specimen" and thereby destroy the market value of the real thing, when and if it occurs.
Nice coin, but there are a lot of other things I'd rather have for $300,000.
Oddly enough I have never been a great Carson City Mint fan. I like Charlotte and especially Dahlonega, but I've never spent big bucks on the CC coinage.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
As has been said by other members, $300,000 could by a lot of other "stuff." A house, a college education or two, a lifetime of vacations.
I could not imagine sinking that much money into a single coin, let alone THIS one. It is pretty, and I guess if you had that kind of discretionary income it would fit well in any advanced collection. Just not my cup of tea
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I think you knew the answer to your thread question before posting it, especially since 99% of the active posters here could never reasonably afford buying such a coin. I will join the rest of the peons and say no! 😊
PS: The Carson mint did not have equipment to make a proof coin. If it were a "proof" - and I have significant doubts of that based on the photos - it had to have been made at Philadelphia.
And yet, some of us have different opinions, which are based on in hand examination of the coin. Admittedly, we can’t prove that are opinions are correct.
The difficulty comes when some of those are asked to produce facts and data to support their opinions. Invariably, it has been past practice to say "it looks like a proof" rather than understanding and applying the operational, mechanical and physical constraints relevant to making a "proof coin" at the Philadelphia Mint.
Even from the photos, the reverse polishing is far inferior to anything the Philadelphia Mint was doing for proof dies/planchets in 1876. The polishing is also inferior to ordinary work at the San Francisco Mint of the same time.
I have no financial or other gain/loss regarding this or other coins. However, I have a basic concern about making accurate, defensible, supportable attributions - things built of facts not initial "opinions" and guesses.
The easiest possible viewing test is to place the coin in question next to the same date proof dime. The two must match if they are proofs.
If the Carson coin does not match the Philadelphia proof, then it is not a proof.
If the Carson coin matches the Philadelphia proof, then it is a proof made from Carson dies at Philadelphia. (Carson did not have equipment to make proof coins.)
Was this very simple comparison performed before attribution?
No one knowledgeable is calling it proof. Looking at this coin under high magnification and in comparison to every 76-CC 10c you can find, it is so different in the quality of its manufacture that it becomes obvious.
So you wasted a lot of time typing but answered the wrong question. Sincerely, I value this writer's insights as gained from documentation. Nevertheless, having been schooled by a few of the all-time greats, I will take their 100,000 hrs apiece coin-in-hand, I will be guided by the practical techniques they have learned and taught.
You, me or Dave Akers?
Who Ya Gonna Call !
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I've had two or three of the striated SP's over the years. Can't say what Fortin number they were, because Gerry was still in grade school at the time. I also had the only non-striated PROOF, which came out of a Stack's sale at $9900 in the pre-slab era. I later had it graded. Sold by Superior in 90 or 91, purchased by Jay Parrino. Later appeared in another Superior sale at FUN, IIRC. Not sure if it's the one Legend later sold.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It seems there are less than 100 branch mint proofs known. The entry fee into this realm of collecting appears to be six figures. Assuming you accept that this coin is indeed something special, $300,000 doesn't seem way off.
I remember bidding on the Copper version at a Bowers sale at the MSNS in the early 80’s. At that time I called it a Proof in my head. Today I would call it a Specimen. The quality of the piece speaks for itself.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Some 1894-S Dimes are certified as Proofs that are not, in my opinion, Proofs.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Insider2 said:
Some live in houses where the furnishings in just one bedroom cost several million dollars not counting the custom made Australian crystal chandelier!
That was an Austrian crystal chandelier, not Australian. I'm sorry you did not enjoy your stay with us.
Lance.
@Insider2 said:
Wait a minute...There were ONLY 8 million made! How many attractively toned Unc's can possibly exist? There is a Registry Set craze now where PO-1 coins cost the same as 66's! Apparently, this coin is worth $300K to someone. Thank goodness for that. We should all be happy for the folks who are selling it and the auction house too. Oh, and of course, its lucky new owner.
PS Remember, everything is relative. Some folks have a closet full of $40K purses. Some live in houses where the furnishings in just one bedroom cost several million dollars not counting the custom made Australian crystal chandelier! What's $300K? Pool and yard service for a year?
Yep. Everything is relative. Gotta agree.
But I don't have ANY relatives that are worth close to that money.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
$225 k more realistic estimate in this market. $300 k seems grossly overpriced. At that level buyer can be more rarer than the coin. CF sell is $250 k. A generous buyer may haggle down to 225 but seller may have settle much less move it.
@ColonelJessup said: "[@RogerB] So you wasted a lot of time typing but answered the wrong question. Sincerely, I value this writer's insights as gained from documentation. Nevertheless, having been schooled by a few of the all-time greats, I will take their 100,000 hrs apiece coin-in-hand, I will be guided by the practical techniques they have learned and taught. You, me or Dave Akers? Who Ya Gonna Call!"
Well unfortunately, Mr. Akers is not available so that leave you and the TPGS.
@lkeigwin said: "That was an Austrian crystal chandelier, not Australian. I'm sorry you did not enjoy your stay with us."
LOL, Thanks for the correction! This is a small one over Randy's Desk in the grading room. They had to remove about a foot of hanging crystals from the bottom so he would not hit his head when he stood up. Unfortunately, it is rarely lighted as the room is kept dark.
Comments
Nah. It probably covers golf club memberships and luxury pool staff members.
It’s been a long time since I last saw the coin, but yes, I agreed with its designation at that time. The best way I can answer your question regarding “How does one distinguish...” is to say that when I last viewed it, if it hadn't had a mintmark, I wouldn’t have questioned its status as a Proof.
The above notwithstanding, I can understand skepticism about any such coin and designation for which there is no documentation. And once coins are awarded special designations despite the absence of such documentation, it can be a very slippery slope.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Regarding Insider2's question about "specimen", etc. designations.
Allow me to add that most so-called specimens I've been shown fit within the normal range of coins struck from production dies. Absent a document stating some coins was made for a special purpose - such as the first 12 1878 Morgan dollars made at the Philadelphia Mint, of the first Morgan dollar made at San Francisco - they cannot be called "specimen" or anything else. To do so is to destroy any useful meaning of the term "Specimen" and thereby destroy the market value of the real thing, when and if it occurs.
Nice coin, but there are a lot of other things I'd rather have for $300,000.
Oddly enough I have never been a great Carson City Mint fan. I like Charlotte and especially Dahlonega, but I've never spent big bucks on the CC coinage.
I sold that coin for $180,000.00. Its a shame, great coin. No one cared.
It’s designated a Specimen in case you didn’t notice
If it was a 1873 and I had deep pockets...…..yes!! But a 1876......no way Jose!
Somehow I guessed you were connected to the coin. I guessed incorrectly that you put it in the present auction.
As has been said by other members, $300,000 could by a lot of other "stuff." A house, a college education or two, a lifetime of vacations.
I could not imagine sinking that much money into a single coin, let alone THIS one. It is pretty, and I guess if you had that kind of discretionary income it would fit well in any advanced collection. Just not my cup of tea
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I think you knew the answer to your thread question before posting it, especially since 99% of the active posters here could never reasonably afford buying such a coin. I will join the rest of the peons and say no! 😊
No.
.> @RogerB said:
No one knowledgeable is calling it proof. Looking at this coin under high magnification and in comparison to every 76-CC 10c you can find, it is so different in the quality of its manufacture that it becomes obvious.
So you wasted a lot of time typing but answered the wrong question. Sincerely, I value this writer's insights as gained from documentation. Nevertheless, having been schooled by a few of the all-time greats, I will take their 100,000 hrs apiece coin-in-hand, I will be guided by the practical techniques they have learned and taught.
You, me or Dave Akers?
Who Ya Gonna Call !
Same coin?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Here's an interesting Kagin's lot description of one of the SP coins:
https://auctions.kagins.com/item.aspx?i=26659908
I've had two or three of the striated SP's over the years. Can't say what Fortin number they were, because Gerry was still in grade school at the time. I also had the only non-striated PROOF, which came out of a Stack's sale at $9900 in the pre-slab era. I later had it graded. Sold by Superior in 90 or 91, purchased by Jay Parrino. Later appeared in another Superior sale at FUN, IIRC. Not sure if it's the one Legend later sold.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Overpriced at $300k. I would say $250 k sell / $180 k wholesale. Probably buyer may haggle down to $225k.
Based upon what?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Conjecture. We all have an excellent handle on that attribute. I’ve become quite adept at it.
It seems there are less than 100 branch mint proofs known. The entry fee into this realm of collecting appears to be six figures. Assuming you accept that this coin is indeed something special, $300,000 doesn't seem way off.
P.S. Not sure where the "auction" reference is coming from. The coin is listed for sale here: https://www.rarecoinwholesalers.com/1876-cc-liberty-seated-10c-sp66-branch-mint-sku-135262
Comes with free shipping.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
My exact thoughts. Absolutely gorgeous example though- stunningly beautiful.
I remember bidding on the Copper version at a Bowers sale at the MSNS in the early 80’s. At that time I called it a Proof in my head. Today I would call it a Specimen. The quality of the piece speaks for itself.
Some 1894-S Dimes are certified as Proofs that are not, in my opinion, Proofs.
That was an Austrian crystal chandelier, not Australian. I'm sorry you did not enjoy your stay with us.
Lance.
Yep. Everything is relative. Gotta agree.
But I don't have ANY relatives that are worth close to that money.
Pete
Nope !!!
$225 k more realistic estimate in this market. $300 k seems grossly overpriced. At that level buyer can be more rarer than the coin. CF sell is $250 k. A generous buyer may haggle down to 225 but seller may have settle much less move it.
@ColonelJessup said: "[@RogerB] So you wasted a lot of time typing but answered the wrong question. Sincerely, I value this writer's insights as gained from documentation. Nevertheless, having been schooled by a few of the all-time greats, I will take their 100,000 hrs apiece coin-in-hand, I will be guided by the practical techniques they have learned and taught. You, me or Dave Akers? Who Ya Gonna Call!"
Well unfortunately, Mr. Akers is not available so that leave you and the TPGS.
@lkeigwin said: "That was an Austrian crystal chandelier, not Australian. I'm sorry you did not enjoy your stay with us."
LOL, Thanks for the correction! This is a small one over Randy's Desk in the grading room. They had to remove about a foot of hanging crystals from the bottom so he would not hit his head when he stood up. Unfortunately, it is rarely lighted as the room is kept dark.
Not at that pricw
Pretty coin.
Not something I'd spend $300,000 on.
U.S. Type Set