@stevek said:
Coinstartled would have been a great fan in attendance watching the gladiators during the olden days at the Roman Coliseum.
There would have been severed arms, legs, heads, and dead bodies everywhere. But don't worry about the health of the participants, never mind the carnage, it would have brought joyous entertainment along with pleasant memories to Coinstartled, and that's the important thing.
We are stretching here a bit, it seems. Go back to the Zion Williamson thread where i opined that he would have been wise to sit out the season after his late season injury. He is paid zero to perform and was probably fortunate to have Duke get bounced from the final four.
@keets said:
Coinstartled is either a liar or deranged, he claims to hate the game but can't stop talking about it.
I also know more about Justin Beiber than I should. The Kardashian's as well.
I spend a lot of time online checking the news and pick up a newspaper a couple times a week. Not really news stuff pops up. The pulled pitcher after seven innings got my attention.
Not much more to add that I haven't already stated.
@stevek said:
It's like the old saying...if a manager does what the fans want, pretty soon he will be sitting with them.
There's a big difference between doing everything the fans want and allowing a pitcher to continue for a historic rarity no-hitter. If a manager does only what the stats say, they'll end up in a similar boat. It's the nuance of being able to read situations and flows that make a great manager or you might as well have a computer do it (and lose all the fans).
This right here illustrates it perfectly does it not? That is, computers/stats and such can help...but you can't just have it on total auto-pilot either. I don't care how sophisitcated stats/computers/"moneyball" and such gets or even if that whole computer aided umpiring comes along in the future...you always need some human judgement/discretion.
@Coinstartled said:
The insults are not necessary to advance your point, Keets. If you are willing to accept a coldly mechanical game without the passion that baseball fans once enjoyed, you are entitled to your view.
I don't believe that pitchers are nearly as fragile as you are suggesting. Perhaps along with umps considered replaceable by machinery, human pitchers could easily be benched in favor of a programmable device that would work cheaply and could throw strikes endlessly with little rest.
You mean something like this? Hey, they said back then it was due just this next year!!
@LarkinCollector said:
Baseball is dying, moves like this are why.
@LarkinCollector said:
Baseball is dying, moves like this are why.
Remember when pitchers threw 300+ innings consistently and had no arm issues. I thought athletes were supposed to get better as the decades go by. I just look at the players of yesterday in such higher regard compared to the players of today. Some of these players used to have jobs in the off season and were still HOFers.
Pitchers throw significantly harder now than they did 40 or 50 years ago. They've traded velocity for stamina and durability.
Also, TONS of guys had arm issues back in the day. Sandy Koufax? Frank Tanana? Tommy John?
@stevek said:
It's like the old saying...if a manager does what the fans want, pretty soon he will be sitting with them.
There's a big difference between doing everything the fans want and allowing a pitcher to continue for a historic rarity no-hitter. If a manager does only what the stats say, they'll end up in a similar boat. It's the nuance of being able to read situations and flows that make a great manager or you might as well have a computer do it (and lose all the fans).
This right here illustrates it perfectly does it not? That is, computers/stats and such can help...but you can't just have it on total auto-pilot either. I don't care how sophisitcated stats/computers/"moneyball" and such gets or even if that whole computer aided umpiring comes along in the future...you always need some human judgement/discretion.
Some here still aren't quite getting it.
Francona didn't make any mistake. Francona didn't screw anything up. He took Bauer out of the game, the relief pitchers came in, and finished up the game successfully for their team to win.
Francona not only helped save his pitcher's arm for another day, and likely many more days or years to come, the game was won in the process. That is exactly what you want a manager to do. Francona performed his job perfectly.
Francona should be applauded, not chastised by some who don't seem to care about the pitcher's arm or career, and what that might do to the Cleveland Indians season or seasons to come. Just shoot for the stars with a complete game no hitter at all costs, no matter what the damage.
The Francona bashers on this matter are just being silly.
@stevek said:
It's like the old saying...if a manager does what the fans want, pretty soon he will be sitting with them.
There's a big difference between doing everything the fans want and allowing a pitcher to continue for a historic rarity no-hitter. If a manager does only what the stats say, they'll end up in a similar boat. It's the nuance of being able to read situations and flows that make a great manager or you might as well have a computer do it (and lose all the fans).
This right here illustrates it perfectly does it not? That is, computers/stats and such can help...but you can't just have it on total auto-pilot either. I don't care how sophisitcated stats/computers/"moneyball" and such gets or even if that whole computer aided umpiring comes along in the future...you always need some human judgement/discretion.
Some here still aren't quite getting it.
Francona didn't make any mistake. Francona didn't screw anything up. He took Bauer out of the game, the relief pitchers came in, and finished up the game successfully for their team to win.
Francona not only helped save his pitcher's arm for another day, and likely many more days or years to come, the game was won in the process. That is exactly what you want a manager to do. Francona performed his job perfectly.
Francona should be applauded, not chastised by some who don't seem to care about the pitcher's arm or career, and what that might do to the Cleveland Indians season or seasons to come. Just shoot for the stars with a complete game no hitter at all costs, no matter what the damage.
The Francona bashers on this matter are just being silly.
You want an aseptic game, that is fine. I don't suspect that MLB will attract me back anytime soon so the game is for those that still enjoy the three and a half hour snoozefests.
By nature their is certain physical price to pay to be a professional athlete. An earlier poster on this thread asked us not to use the NFL as an example so I won't. I won't include pugilists as well as some are killed in the ring. Same with the bullfighters that occasionally become the prey to an angry opponent. Forget the NBA players that suffer career ending leg injuries as well as the hockey players that sometimes get a blade slash to the throat.
But those pitchers... the $13,000,000 guys that play for maybe 8% of the time (measured in innings.) Well these fragile athletes with the golden arms, they just cannot play a whole, entire game anymore, even if they will be sitting on there ass eating sunflower seeds for the next four days. Good gosh, the horrors of tossing another 30 pitches. The career ending finality of that additional ten minutes on the mound.
@stevek said:
It's like the old saying...if a manager does what the fans want, pretty soon he will be sitting with them.
There's a big difference between doing everything the fans want and allowing a pitcher to continue for a historic rarity no-hitter. If a manager does only what the stats say, they'll end up in a similar boat. It's the nuance of being able to read situations and flows that make a great manager or you might as well have a computer do it (and lose all the fans).
This right here illustrates it perfectly does it not? That is, computers/stats and such can help...but you can't just have it on total auto-pilot either. I don't care how sophisitcated stats/computers/"moneyball" and such gets or even if that whole computer aided umpiring comes along in the future...you always need some human judgement/discretion.
Some here still aren't quite getting it.
Francona didn't make any mistake. Francona didn't screw anything up. He took Bauer out of the game, the relief pitchers came in, and finished up the game successfully for their team to win.
Francona not only helped save his pitcher's arm for another day, and likely many more days or years to come, the game was won in the process. That is exactly what you want a manager to do. Francona performed his job perfectly.
Francona should be applauded, not chastised by some who don't seem to care about the pitcher's arm or career, and what that might do to the Cleveland Indians season or seasons to come. Just shoot for the stars with a complete game no hitter at all costs, no matter what the damage.
The Francona bashers on this matter are just being silly.
You want an aseptic game, that is fine. I don't suspect that MLB will attract me back anytime soon so the game is for those that still enjoy the three and a half hour snoozefests.
By nature their is certain physical price to pay to be a professional athlete. An earlier poster on this thread asked us not to use the NFL as an example so I won't. I won't include pugilists as well as some are killed in the ring. Same with the bullfighters that occasionally become the prey to an angry opponent. Forget the NBA players that suffer career ending leg injuries as well as the hockey players that sometimes get a blade slash to the throat.
But those pitchers... the $13,000,000 guys that play for maybe 8% of the time (measured in innings.) Well these fragile athletes with the golden arms, they just cannot play a whole, entire game anymore, even if they will be sitting on there ass eating sunflower seeds for the next four days. Good gosh, the horrors of tossing another 30 pitches. The career ending finality of that additional ten minutes on the mound.
Game is lost.
Everything in life has a breaking point. When will that next shovel of snow cause a heart attack? When will moving some heavy furniture cause a back problem or hernia? The list is infinite.
Everything in human life is judged for safety, and if it isn't done properly by intention or by accident, then negative consequences can occur.
Francona did his very best to make sure that the consequences were positive, and they were. This is why a pitch count is used. It's a judgment to help prevent negative consequences. Could Bauer have thrown the extra pitches and it would have never affected his performance this season or the rest of his career? Well we shall never know that for sure.
However without a doubt, Francona taking Bauer out of the game at that time, lessened the chances of negative consequences happening, and since a fresh arm came it, increased the chances of the Indians winning the game.
All that is not aseptic for baseball. That's good baseball, that's smart baseball. Baseball was meant to be a relaxing summer game. As you know it has no time clock as far as how long the game can go. That's baseball, take it or leave it. If you choose to leave it then that's your prerogative. I choose to take it, and enjoy it.
I have grown over the years to like football more than baseball for a number of reasons. But i still enjoy baseball a lot and always will. It is what it is. Just don't blame Terry Francona for managing a MLB game the way it's supposed to be managed.
SteveK, it seems that you are trying to convince yourself, more than me. Listen to the frustrated pitcher who looks miserable as he says the right stuff to defend his manager. Does not look like a guy that is thrilled to have chalked up a win.
@Coinstartled said:
SteveK, it seems that you are trying to convince yourself, more than me. Listen to the frustrated pitcher who looks miserable as he says the right stuff to defend his manager. Does not look like a guy that is thrilled to have chalked up a win.
I was convinced the moment I heard the facts about this. I didn't need any additional convincing.
What you need to understand is that no pitcher worth anything ever really wants to come out of a game, unless it's an obvious injury. Especially when he's got a no hitter going.
But I think Bauer knows that Francona did the right thing.
@Coinstartled said:
SteveK, it seems that you are trying to convince yourself, more than me. Listen to the frustrated pitcher who looks miserable as he says the right stuff to defend his manager. Does not look like a guy that is thrilled to have chalked up a win.
I was convinced the moment I heard the facts about this. I didn't need any additional convincing.
What you need to understand is that no pitcher worth anything ever really wants to come out of a game, unless it's an obvious injury. Especially when he's got a no hitter going.
But I think Bauer knows that Francona did the right thing.
Francona stole a bit of legacy from the young man. Far from a certainty of course, with 6 outs remaining, but that is what pitchers live for...not droning through a long hot season in Cleveland Ohio.
So the guy has to soak his arm for another half hour. Big deal. His limb was not going to fall off.
In the history of Major League Baseball guess which month has seen the least amount of no hitters? Answer April
Guess which month has seen the most? September.
Nolan Ryan has seven no hitters. Not one in April.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled said:
SteveK, it seems that you are trying to convince yourself, more than me. Listen to the frustrated pitcher who looks miserable as he says the right stuff to defend his manager. Does not look like a guy that is thrilled to have chalked up a win.
I was convinced the moment I heard the facts about this. I didn't need any additional convincing.
What you need to understand is that no pitcher worth anything ever really wants to come out of a game, unless it's an obvious injury. Especially when he's got a no hitter going.
But I think Bauer knows that Francona did the right thing.
Francona stole a bit of legacy from the young man. Far from a certainty of course, with 6 outs remaining, but that is what pitchers live for...not droning through a long hot season in Cleveland Ohio.
So the guy has to soak his arm for another half hour. Big deal. His limb was not going to fall off.
Yea, yea, yea....soak that torn rotator cuff for a half hour, heals it right up. 🙄
Bauer pitches for the reason of 13 million dollars per year. Everything else is a distant second.
If the owner would have came down to the dugout after Bauer pitched the top of the seventh inning and said, "Trevor, you can go for your legacy of a complete game no hitter, but you'll need to sign this waiver that if you injure your arm, it voids your contract."
I wonder how Bauer would have responded to the owner? How many F word expletives would he have used?
@Coinstartled said:
SteveK, it seems that you are trying to convince yourself, more than me. Listen to the frustrated pitcher who looks miserable as he says the right stuff to defend his manager. Does not look like a guy that is thrilled to have chalked up a win.
I was convinced the moment I heard the facts about this. I didn't need any additional convincing.
What you need to understand is that no pitcher worth anything ever really wants to come out of a game, unless it's an obvious injury. Especially when he's got a no hitter going.
But I think Bauer knows that Francona did the right thing.
Francona stole a bit of legacy from the young man. Far from a certainty of course, with 6 outs remaining, but that is what pitchers live for...not droning through a long hot season in Cleveland Ohio.
So the guy has to soak his arm for another half hour. Big deal. His limb was not going to fall off.
Yea, yea, yea....soak that torn rotator cuff for a half hour, heals it right up. 🙄
Bauer pitches for the reason of 13 million dollars per year. Everything else is a distant second.
If the owner would have came down to the dugout after Bauer pitched the top of the seventh inning and said, "Trevor, you can go for your legacy of a complete game no hitter, but you'll need to sign this waiver that if you injure your arm, it voids your contract."
I wonder how Bauer would have responded to the owner? How many F word expletives would he have used?
I have never been critical of the high salaries of professional athletes (beyond that fact that many are taxpayer subsidized). If the $13,000,000 is the only reason that Francona made a dunce move, than the money has evidently screwed up the game.
Real risk to a pitcher is getting whacked by a hit ball or a broken bat. That can be fatal, yet the mound is still only 60 and a half feet from the plate.
@Justacommeman said:
In the history of Major League Baseball guess which month has seen the least amount of no hitters? Answer April
Guess which month has seen the most? September.
Nolan Ryan has seven no hitters. Not one in April.
mark
That would make it more special...would it not.
You are a fans, fan, Commem. How would you have felt if you were in the stands that evening? Answer that first, then you can pontificate.
As a fan I know that there is zero chance he will be completing that game when he has 100 pitches thrown in the sixth inning in April. It’s completly off the table. So zero surprise or angst.
No. Not more special. There is a reason for it. I know you don’t care about a young pitchers arm but it’s up to the manager to do so. One Francona really cares about his players. Two he has a tangible asset to protect. It’s the first week of April. 117 pitches thrown and six outs to go? He made the right decision and honestly it’s not even a tough one to make.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I did answer. You just don’t want to accept it. You just love playing the fan martyr when you aren’t even a fan. As a person sitting in the stands I know by the 6th inning with his pitch count where it’s at there is zero chance he finishes the game so I would have zero expectations.
“It wasn’t that tough of a decision, but I hated doing it,” said manager Terry Francona, who removed his serial out-getter from the game after seven innings. “It would have been negligence to him and the organization to send him back out. If you manage with your heart, you’ll get yourself in trouble.”
If any pitcher could have pushed the pitch-count envelope in the name of history it’s Bauer, whose bionic arm and frenetic devotion to and study of the art of winning the pitcher vs. batter chess match have turned himself into an indestructible pitching savant.
But even he realized April is far too early in the season to play hero ball, so he accepted his removal from the game graciously.
He does, after all, have a career to think about. It’s a career that will soon begin another chapter, as he announced during the offseason his intention to become a negotiation revolutionary who will challenge all previously held conventions in the free agent process.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
...and i looked that the no hit breakdown by month. April was consistent (14%) with every other month but September which had a 5% pop over the other five. Considering that April historically has less games played than the other months, your argument is specious.
no pitcher ever wants to give the ball up, they are by nature Alpha Males who are convinced they can get the job done. perhaps the worst time to see how a pitcher really feels about his performance is in the post-game interview, but Bauer looked normal to me and I've seen him since he first came up with Cleveland. I didn't just notice him because of a potential no-hitter that got some press.
the pitcher longevity point is a legitimate one and Sandy Koufax is a good example. he lasted what, 10-11 years?? maybe if they had saved his arm some his career would have been longer, but who knows. I can say this much --- if you watch Trevor Bauer pitch you will see a player close to his prime who can really throw hard, 95-96mph during a game in addition to a wicked 12 to 6 curve-ball that puts incredible stress on his wrist, elbow and rotator cuff.
Teams and Managers who like to keep their jobs protect guys like that from themselves.
Use Koufax as an example and not Lynn Ryan. Ryan pitched 5386 innings in 27 years with 7 no hitters. On the other hand consider Stephen Strasburg who needed TJ surgery Halfway through his rookie season. Had he come up when Koufax did, he never would have seen season number two.
@Coinstartled said:
Use Koufax as an example and not Lynn Ryan. Ryan pitched 5386 innings in 27 years with 7 no hitters. On the other hand consider Stephen Strasburg who needed TJ surgery Halfway through his rookie season. Had he come up when Koufax did, he never would have seen season number two.
And Ryan had injuries throughout his career. He threw 200 innings in a season barely half the time - 14 of 27 seasons. 14 of 26 if you want throw out 1966, 14 of 25 if you want to throw out 1981.
In 1975, after back-to-back seasons of 300+ IP, he missed the last 6 weeks of the season due to injury. He had major elbow pain in 1986 and Dr. Frank Jobe recommended Tommy John surgery. He had multiple other injuries throughout.
The one thing not really mentioned yet is just how special talent wise Trevor Bauer is. I think he has given up exactly one hit in two starts this season. He is going to be one special free agent in the off season
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Well Jon, let us agree that a low action game is boring (even though Cleveland bats were productive that evening.
Unless baseball has changed that dramatically in the 20 years that I have virtually been away, well at the bottom of the eighth when Trevor would have stepped up to the mound looking for 6 more outs for a no hit game, that is when the excitement would have truly accelerated, even for the opposing fans.
Baseball was a magical game once. You could be seventy years old and for the price of a grandstand seat and a hot dog, for a few hours you could be a kid again.
Home runs were magic and triples in the gap were magic and hitting for the cycle was magic and the triple play was magic.
Most magical of all was the no hitter and the perfect game. With the game now managed by computers and close plays called from a New York skyscraper, the fan is doomed. At least the handful that remains.
@DIMEMAN said:
CS....your are just plain wrong here. Everybody here has told you so and why. Even TB said it was the right thing to do.
Give it up......and move on....PLEASE!!!!
The most vocal thought it to be appropriate. Certainly have some support on this thread for my position as well.
Earlier it was suggested that football not be used as a comparison. I will draw that car anyway, Dimeman. You are a huge Cowboys and Emmitt fan. Justacommem a huge Michigan football fan.
Should Emmitt have been used only every third game during the NFL season to prolong his career? I'll wait patiently for your answer.
Justacommem holds an even weaker hand as the players he cheers on on a crisp November Saturday are getting their noggins drilled into the turf without a paycheck.
Let the starting pitcher do his job. He gets 4 days off. 30 more pitches in not a big deal.
Football players end up with snapped bones and dementia at 40 years old and little is made of that on the forum. "Well they get paid for it is the usual response." Well at least the professionals do.
i suppose if some chain of Teams/Coaches starting at High School, through College and into the pro's at the Minor League level and the Big Leagues undertook a radically different training regimen that a pitcher such as Trevor Bauer could pitch more often than every 4-5 days. as my father was fond of saying, it's possible but not probable.
think about it: the best, smartest and most experienced professionals(Coinstartled notwithstanding) have determined over the course of 125+ years what the best training program(s) might be to ensure the best long term performance of pitchers. it seems to work. without being a mind reader I am curious what "the Coinstartled" program would be, how often he would have pitchers pitch and how long he believes he might extend a pitchers career??
I would expect:
--- on average, a starting pitcher would throw 120+ pitches.
--- on average, starting pitchers ERA's would be higher, probably around 4,50+.
--- on average, a starting pitchers career would be about 7-8 years long with at least one major surgery and intermittent trips to the DL.
--- the Team using this new "strategy" would be a perennial cellar dweller.
there is an upside with a twist. since the 4-5 starters would be logging so many innings the Team could replace 3-4 BP pitchers and add some "pop" to the starting line-up, increasing run production.
@keets said: But isn't there a reason they get four days off?
i suppose if some chain of Teams/Coaches starting at High School, through College and into the pro's at the Minor League level and the Big Leagues undertook a radically different training regimen that a pitcher such as Trevor Bauer could pitch more often than every 4-5 days. as my father was fond of saying, it's possible but not probable.
think about it: the best, smartest and most experienced professionals(Coinstartled notwithstanding) have determined over the course of 125+ years what the best training program(s) might be to ensure the best long term performance of pitchers. it seems to work. without being a mind reader I am curious what "the Coinstartled" program would be, how often he would have pitchers pitch and how long he believes he might extend a pitchers career??
I would expect:
--- on average, a starting pitcher would throw 120+ pitches.
--- on average, starting pitchers ERA's would be higher, probably around 4,50+.
--- on average, a starting pitchers career would be about 7-8 years long with at least one major surgery and intermittent trips to the DL.
--- the Team using this new "strategy" would be a perennial cellar dweller.
there is an upside with a twist. since the 4-5 starters would be logging so many innings the Team could replace 3-4 BP pitchers and add some "pop" to the starting line-up, increasing run production.
Keets. should I set up the clubhouse menu as well?
Perhaps a once in a career opportunity for the hurler and the brain trust blew it.
Wonder if Francona tipped off the young man before he pulled him that he would be stiffed or did he shatter his dream as he contemplated the final 6 outs.
take a look at the current MLB injury report, it is certainly relevant to this discussion. I was surprised to see that Pitchers far outnumber any position player and actually comprise more of the currently injured players on the list than ALL other position players combined. there's a reason for that and it correlates directly to the number of pitches thrown and the time of year. playing baseball in 30-50 degree weather at night is just not a good idea.
the only other explanation might be that Pitchers aren't training properly or are physically inferior and that just isn't true.
I would agree Keets that baseball is a warm weather sport a shorter season with day games instead of evening would be optimal. As well, the longer games extended by the greed of stuffing too many commercial minutes between innings requires a pitcher to stay warm for a longer period than an earlier era.
As usual you are all wrong. The correct answer is leave the guy out there to try for the no hitter. As for those that say oh no his arm oh no his 80 million dollar contract , pay these cream puffs much less , burn them out and discard them to a life of frustrated alcoholism and sign the next gutless bum. They exist purely for our entertainment , if it means destroying their lives then hurry up already.
And those of you that say baseball is dying are wrong too, it is actually long dead and not savable. Baseball is the HMS titanic 30 minutes after the iceberg, its over people , do you want to be the chick on the floating door or hapless leo freezing to death in the icy water? Get out while the getting is good.
The clock is ticking on all of you bums and at the bitter end you get no bonus points for pathetic nostalgia or misplaced loyalty. At the end you are going to wish every hour you spent watching baseball was put to good use doing something real.
Keets, we are all sports fans or we wouldn't be posting here. This is a great topic as the passion of the old school clashes with the pragmatism of the new age.
Baseball was all that I watched (and listened to) as a kid. When the Tigers season was over, sports was over. I spent the gloomy winters counting the days to spring training.
Can't imagine in my wildest dream (really nightmare) any Detroit manager crapping on the pitcher and the fans in that fashion.
Have not been a fan of the game though for two, really close to three decades. Fans taking a backseat to computers and soon electronic umpires is the game of 2019. Four to five hour playoff games seem impossible to me...but there they are.
I guess that is the problem, the modern fan is used to handing over his tax dollars for stadiums and improvements and a handful of twenty dollar bills for admission...and accepts spit on his shoes in return.
@keets Francona is a players manager, yes he is highly respected by the plYers because he has zero control and let’s them do whatever they want. In 2011 the Red Sox had an 11 game lead for first place in late August early September and LOST it as Francona looked on letting these babies> @bronco2078 said:
As usual you are all wrong. The correct answer is leave the guy out there to try for the no hitter. As for those that say oh no his arm oh no his 80 million dollar contract , pay these cream puffs much less , burn them out and discard them to a life of frustrated alcoholism and sign the next gutless bum. They exist purely for our entertainment , if it means destroying their lives then hurry up already.
And those of you that say baseball is dying are wrong too, it is actually long dead and not savable. Baseball is the HMS titanic 30 minutes after the iceberg, its over people , do you want to be the chick on the floating door or hapless leo freezing to death in the icy water? Get out while the getting is good.
The clock is ticking on all of you bums and at the bitter end you get no bonus points for pathetic nostalgia or misplaced loyalty. At the end you are going to wish every hour you spent watching baseball was put to good use doing something real.
Comments
We are stretching here a bit, it seems. Go back to the Zion Williamson thread where i opined that he would have been wise to sit out the season after his late season injury. He is paid zero to perform and was probably fortunate to have Duke get bounced from the final four.
I also know more about Justin Beiber than I should. The Kardashian's as well.
I spend a lot of time online checking the news and pick up a newspaper a couple times a week. Not really news stuff pops up. The pulled pitcher after seven innings got my attention.
Not much more to add that I haven't already stated.
Always adding your two cents, which makes sense, since your handle is coinstartled. 😆
This right here illustrates it perfectly does it not? That is, computers/stats and such can help...but you can't just have it on total auto-pilot either. I don't care how sophisitcated stats/computers/"moneyball" and such gets or even if that whole computer aided umpiring comes along in the future...you always need some human judgement/discretion.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
You mean something like this? Hey, they said back then it was due just this next year!!
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Pitchers throw significantly harder now than they did 40 or 50 years ago. They've traded velocity for stamina and durability.
Also, TONS of guys had arm issues back in the day. Sandy Koufax? Frank Tanana? Tommy John?
Some here still aren't quite getting it.
Francona didn't make any mistake. Francona didn't screw anything up. He took Bauer out of the game, the relief pitchers came in, and finished up the game successfully for their team to win.
Francona not only helped save his pitcher's arm for another day, and likely many more days or years to come, the game was won in the process. That is exactly what you want a manager to do. Francona performed his job perfectly.
Francona should be applauded, not chastised by some who don't seem to care about the pitcher's arm or career, and what that might do to the Cleveland Indians season or seasons to come. Just shoot for the stars with a complete game no hitter at all costs, no matter what the damage.
The Francona bashers on this matter are just being silly.
Honestly I didn't realize that at first myself.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
You want an aseptic game, that is fine. I don't suspect that MLB will attract me back anytime soon so the game is for those that still enjoy the three and a half hour snoozefests.
By nature their is certain physical price to pay to be a professional athlete. An earlier poster on this thread asked us not to use the NFL as an example so I won't. I won't include pugilists as well as some are killed in the ring. Same with the bullfighters that occasionally become the prey to an angry opponent. Forget the NBA players that suffer career ending leg injuries as well as the hockey players that sometimes get a blade slash to the throat.
But those pitchers... the $13,000,000 guys that play for maybe 8% of the time (measured in innings.) Well these fragile athletes with the golden arms, they just cannot play a whole, entire game anymore, even if they will be sitting on there ass eating sunflower seeds for the next four days. Good gosh, the horrors of tossing another 30 pitches. The career ending finality of that additional ten minutes on the mound.
Game is lost.
Everything in life has a breaking point. When will that next shovel of snow cause a heart attack? When will moving some heavy furniture cause a back problem or hernia? The list is infinite.
Everything in human life is judged for safety, and if it isn't done properly by intention or by accident, then negative consequences can occur.
Francona did his very best to make sure that the consequences were positive, and they were. This is why a pitch count is used. It's a judgment to help prevent negative consequences. Could Bauer have thrown the extra pitches and it would have never affected his performance this season or the rest of his career? Well we shall never know that for sure.
However without a doubt, Francona taking Bauer out of the game at that time, lessened the chances of negative consequences happening, and since a fresh arm came it, increased the chances of the Indians winning the game.
All that is not aseptic for baseball. That's good baseball, that's smart baseball. Baseball was meant to be a relaxing summer game. As you know it has no time clock as far as how long the game can go. That's baseball, take it or leave it. If you choose to leave it then that's your prerogative. I choose to take it, and enjoy it.
I have grown over the years to like football more than baseball for a number of reasons. But i still enjoy baseball a lot and always will. It is what it is. Just don't blame Terry Francona for managing a MLB game the way it's supposed to be managed.
SteveK, it seems that you are trying to convince yourself, more than me. Listen to the frustrated pitcher who looks miserable as he says the right stuff to defend his manager. Does not look like a guy that is thrilled to have chalked up a win.
I was convinced the moment I heard the facts about this. I didn't need any additional convincing.
What you need to understand is that no pitcher worth anything ever really wants to come out of a game, unless it's an obvious injury. Especially when he's got a no hitter going.
But I think Bauer knows that Francona did the right thing.
Francona stole a bit of legacy from the young man. Far from a certainty of course, with 6 outs remaining, but that is what pitchers live for...not droning through a long hot season in Cleveland Ohio.
So the guy has to soak his arm for another half hour. Big deal. His limb was not going to fall off.
In the history of Major League Baseball guess which month has seen the least amount of no hitters? Answer April
Guess which month has seen the most? September.
Nolan Ryan has seven no hitters. Not one in April.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That would make it more special...would it not.
You are a fans, fan, Commem. How would you have felt if you were in the stands that evening? Answer that first, then you can pontificate.
Yea, yea, yea....soak that torn rotator cuff for a half hour, heals it right up. 🙄
Bauer pitches for the reason of 13 million dollars per year. Everything else is a distant second.
If the owner would have came down to the dugout after Bauer pitched the top of the seventh inning and said, "Trevor, you can go for your legacy of a complete game no hitter, but you'll need to sign this waiver that if you injure your arm, it voids your contract."
I wonder how Bauer would have responded to the owner? How many F word expletives would he have used?
I have never been critical of the high salaries of professional athletes (beyond that fact that many are taxpayer subsidized). If the $13,000,000 is the only reason that Francona made a dunce move, than the money has evidently screwed up the game.
Real risk to a pitcher is getting whacked by a hit ball or a broken bat. That can be fatal, yet the mound is still only 60 and a half feet from the plate.
Maybe that should be reviewed as well.
As a fan I know that there is zero chance he will be completing that game when he has 100 pitches thrown in the sixth inning in April. It’s completly off the table. So zero surprise or angst.
No. Not more special. There is a reason for it. I know you don’t care about a young pitchers arm but it’s up to the manager to do so. One Francona really cares about his players. Two he has a tangible asset to protect. It’s the first week of April. 117 pitches thrown and six outs to go? He made the right decision and honestly it’s not even a tough one to make.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You didn't answer my question about being in the stands, Mark. Got the pontificting though...but it is Sunday.
I did answer. You just don’t want to accept it. You just love playing the fan martyr when you aren’t even a fan. As a person sitting in the stands I know by the 6th inning with his pitch count where it’s at there is zero chance he finishes the game so I would have zero expectations.
“It wasn’t that tough of a decision, but I hated doing it,” said manager Terry Francona, who removed his serial out-getter from the game after seven innings. “It would have been negligence to him and the organization to send him back out. If you manage with your heart, you’ll get yourself in trouble.”
If any pitcher could have pushed the pitch-count envelope in the name of history it’s Bauer, whose bionic arm and frenetic devotion to and study of the art of winning the pitcher vs. batter chess match have turned himself into an indestructible pitching savant.
But even he realized April is far too early in the season to play hero ball, so he accepted his removal from the game graciously.
He does, after all, have a career to think about. It’s a career that will soon begin another chapter, as he announced during the offseason his intention to become a negotiation revolutionary who will challenge all previously held conventions in the free agent process.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Why did Francona "hate to do it" if it was the right decision?
He hated to do it because it was a slap in the face to every pitcher and manager that ever played or coached the game of baseball. Fans be damned.
...and i looked that the no hit breakdown by month. April was consistent (14%) with every other month but September which had a 5% pop over the other five. Considering that April historically has less games played than the other months, your argument is specious.
Coinstartled in a chess match:
Opponent says, "Checkmate"
Coinstartled then says, "No wait a minute, let me move my pieces around a little bit."
Kindly demonstrate the inconsistency.
no pitcher ever wants to give the ball up, they are by nature Alpha Males who are convinced they can get the job done. perhaps the worst time to see how a pitcher really feels about his performance is in the post-game interview, but Bauer looked normal to me and I've seen him since he first came up with Cleveland. I didn't just notice him because of a potential no-hitter that got some press.
the pitcher longevity point is a legitimate one and Sandy Koufax is a good example. he lasted what, 10-11 years?? maybe if they had saved his arm some his career would have been longer, but who knows. I can say this much --- if you watch Trevor Bauer pitch you will see a player close to his prime who can really throw hard, 95-96mph during a game in addition to a wicked 12 to 6 curve-ball that puts incredible stress on his wrist, elbow and rotator cuff.
Teams and Managers who like to keep their jobs protect guys like that from themselves.
Use Koufax as an example and not Lynn Ryan. Ryan pitched 5386 innings in 27 years with 7 no hitters. On the other hand consider Stephen Strasburg who needed TJ surgery Halfway through his rookie season. Had he come up when Koufax did, he never would have seen season number two.
And Ryan had injuries throughout his career. He threw 200 innings in a season barely half the time - 14 of 27 seasons. 14 of 26 if you want throw out 1966, 14 of 25 if you want to throw out 1981.
In 1975, after back-to-back seasons of 300+ IP, he missed the last 6 weeks of the season due to injury. He had major elbow pain in 1986 and Dr. Frank Jobe recommended Tommy John surgery. He had multiple other injuries throughout.
Yup. He was a professional athlete not a pencil necked accountant.
The one thing not really mentioned yet is just how special talent wise Trevor Bauer is. I think he has given up exactly one hit in two starts this season. He is going to be one special free agent in the off season
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled mentioned that MLB is turning into a snoozefest........that is exactly what a no-hitter is....a snoozefest!
Well Jon, let us agree that a low action game is boring (even though Cleveland bats were productive that evening.
Unless baseball has changed that dramatically in the 20 years that I have virtually been away, well at the bottom of the eighth when Trevor would have stepped up to the mound looking for 6 more outs for a no hit game, that is when the excitement would have truly accelerated, even for the opposing fans.
Baseball was a magical game once. You could be seventy years old and for the price of a grandstand seat and a hot dog, for a few hours you could be a kid again.
Home runs were magic and triples in the gap were magic and hitting for the cycle was magic and the triple play was magic.
Most magical of all was the no hitter and the perfect game. With the game now managed by computers and close plays called from a New York skyscraper, the fan is doomed. At least the handful that remains.
A professional athlete who missed A LOT of time due to injury.
...And still managed to tally 616 decisions and 5,714 strike outs during the short stints that he was healthy.
CS....your are just plain wrong here. Everybody here has told you so and why. Even TB said it was the right thing to do.
Give it up......and move on....PLEASE!!!!
The most vocal thought it to be appropriate. Certainly have some support on this thread for my position as well.
Earlier it was suggested that football not be used as a comparison. I will draw that car anyway, Dimeman. You are a huge Cowboys and Emmitt fan. Justacommem a huge Michigan football fan.
Should Emmitt have been used only every third game during the NFL season to prolong his career? I'll wait patiently for your answer.
Justacommem holds an even weaker hand as the players he cheers on on a crisp November Saturday are getting their noggins drilled into the turf without a paycheck.
Let the starting pitcher do his job. He gets 4 days off. 30 more pitches in not a big deal.
Football players end up with snapped bones and dementia at 40 years old and little is made of that on the forum. "Well they get paid for it is the usual response." Well at least the professionals do.
But isn't there a reason they get four days off?
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
3 days rest I believe is optimal for a major league starting pitcher, but the 4 days works to as a 9 inning performance requires rest and recovery.
But isn't there a reason they get four days off?
i suppose if some chain of Teams/Coaches starting at High School, through College and into the pro's at the Minor League level and the Big Leagues undertook a radically different training regimen that a pitcher such as Trevor Bauer could pitch more often than every 4-5 days. as my father was fond of saying, it's possible but not probable.
think about it: the best, smartest and most experienced professionals(Coinstartled notwithstanding) have determined over the course of 125+ years what the best training program(s) might be to ensure the best long term performance of pitchers. it seems to work. without being a mind reader I am curious what "the Coinstartled" program would be, how often he would have pitchers pitch and how long he believes he might extend a pitchers career??
I would expect:
--- on average, a starting pitcher would throw 120+ pitches.
--- on average, starting pitchers ERA's would be higher, probably around 4,50+.
--- on average, a starting pitchers career would be about 7-8 years long with at least one major surgery and intermittent trips to the DL.
--- the Team using this new "strategy" would be a perennial cellar dweller.
there is an upside with a twist. since the 4-5 starters would be logging so many innings the Team could replace 3-4 BP pitchers and add some "pop" to the starting line-up, increasing run production.
Especially not this pitcher!!
https://vlipsy.com/vlip/little-big-league-go-away-XydoHJeO
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Comparing Emmitt Smith carrying the ball and a pitcher going past a safe pitch count is a Apples/Oranges compare!
Come on man!
Keets. should I set up the clubhouse menu as well?
Perhaps a once in a career opportunity for the hurler and the brain trust blew it.
Wonder if Francona tipped off the young man before he pulled him that he would be stiffed or did he shatter his dream as he contemplated the final 6 outs.
You're right Dimeman, it is apples and oranges. After each pitch no one is hammering Bauer to the ground.
Just in case you didn't realize it..........coaches in the NFL count the carries on a RB too!
take a look at the current MLB injury report, it is certainly relevant to this discussion. I was surprised to see that Pitchers far outnumber any position player and actually comprise more of the currently injured players on the list than ALL other position players combined. there's a reason for that and it correlates directly to the number of pitches thrown and the time of year. playing baseball in 30-50 degree weather at night is just not a good idea.
the only other explanation might be that Pitchers aren't training properly or are physically inferior and that just isn't true.
I would agree Keets that baseball is a warm weather sport a shorter season with day games instead of evening would be optimal. As well, the longer games extended by the greed of stuffing too many commercial minutes between innings requires a pitcher to stay warm for a longer period than an earlier era.
Having said all that, Francona blew it.
the Indians won the game, Bauer pitched seven no hit innings and is healthy for his next start. I don't think anyone blew anything.
As usual you are all wrong. The correct answer is leave the guy out there to try for the no hitter. As for those that say oh no his arm oh no his 80 million dollar contract , pay these cream puffs much less , burn them out and discard them to a life of frustrated alcoholism and sign the next gutless bum. They exist purely for our entertainment , if it means destroying their lives then hurry up already.
And those of you that say baseball is dying are wrong too, it is actually long dead and not savable. Baseball is the HMS titanic 30 minutes after the iceberg, its over people , do you want to be the chick on the floating door or hapless leo freezing to death in the icy water? Get out while the getting is good.
The clock is ticking on all of you bums and at the bitter end you get no bonus points for pathetic nostalgia or misplaced loyalty. At the end you are going to wish every hour you spent watching baseball was put to good use doing something real.
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Too harsh?
Keets, we are all sports fans or we wouldn't be posting here. This is a great topic as the passion of the old school clashes with the pragmatism of the new age.
Baseball was all that I watched (and listened to) as a kid. When the Tigers season was over, sports was over. I spent the gloomy winters counting the days to spring training.
Can't imagine in my wildest dream (really nightmare) any Detroit manager crapping on the pitcher and the fans in that fashion.
Have not been a fan of the game though for two, really close to three decades. Fans taking a backseat to computers and soon electronic umpires is the game of 2019. Four to five hour playoff games seem impossible to me...but there they are.
I guess that is the problem, the modern fan is used to handing over his tax dollars for stadiums and improvements and a handful of twenty dollar bills for admission...and accepts spit on his shoes in return.
Baseball fans are used to being punching bags . To use an analogy , MLB is OJ simpson and the fans are Nicole Brown Simpson
To cheer you up I give you this video
@keets Francona is a players manager, yes he is highly respected by the plYers because he has zero control and let’s them do whatever they want. In 2011 the Red Sox had an 11 game lead for first place in late August early September and LOST it as Francona looked on letting these babies> @bronco2078 said:
👏😂