No Trevor...it was the wrong decision.
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
Cleveland hurler throws 7 no hit innings and gets pulled.
Inexcusable.
Fans bail from the game of baseball as it is too slow and frankly, too wimpy.
No hitter is the best that the game can offer, and Cleveland manager Terry Francona failed miserably.
It is the only time that the opposing fans will cheer for a pitcher. Think about that.
You witness a no hitter and talk about it for the rest of your life.
Fans left the stadium empty handed.
~~
CLEVELAND (AP) — Trevor Bauer was pulled by manager Terry Francona after seven hitless innings and 117 pitches, and watched from the dugout as Toronto's Freddy Galvis broke up Cleveland's bid for a combined no-hitter with a leadoff single in the ninth inning of the Indians' 4-1 win Thursday night.
Bauer was attempting to throw Cleveland's first no-hitter in 38 years — on the 25th anniversary of Progressive Field's opening — but was taken out as his pitch count increased.
"It was the right decision," Bauer said.
Comments
Nolan Ryan shaking his head
Trevor should have told Terry no. The players run the club under Francona’s watch
2 innings isn't worth potentially hurting a top 10 starter in the AL in his 2nd start of the year. He would have been pushing 150 pitches to finish. They won the game, that's all that matters.
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Game is gone.
No hitter for the fans to enjoy, or possibly harming a pitcher's arm.
Sorry, but Francona made the right call here.
Baseball is dying, moves like this are why.
Sucks for the fans but from a team standpoint it was the correct decision.
Terry Collins left Santana out there for 140+ pitches to finish his no hitter and he was never the same after that.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Those who say Francona should have left him in, really aren't thinking things thru.
I mean there wasn't any guarantee of a no hitter. Bauer could have thrown many more pitches, possibly hurting his arm, and still given up a hit to a later batter. So now you've got a sore armed pitcher for nothing.
If I'm an owner and see that my manager is choosing individual player glory and so called "fan interest" over a player's health and the opportunity to get into the playoffs and beyond. Sorry but I'm firing that manager immediately.
It's like the old saying...if a manager does what the fans want, pretty soon he will be sitting with them.
Without the fans, you have no game. Taxpayers paid for most of the stadiums.
Winning and preserving a player's effectiveness and not unnecessarily risking injury should be the primary objective.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Well at least do it for the lushes.
-- Cuyahoga County voters approved a 15-year sin tax on alcohol and cigarette sales in May 1990 to finance the new Gateway Sports and Entertainment Complex, which included the ballpark, an adjacent arena for the Cleveland Cavaliers of the National Basketball Association (NBA), and two parking garages
Nolan Ryan threw 235 pitches over 13 innings for the Angels against the Red Sox. Luis Tiant of Boston pitched into the 15th inning, where the Angels finally won 4-3. He was the complete game loser in a game that went into the 15th inning.
We used to travel by horse and buggy, too.
Like it or not, the game is different today than it was back then.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What Ryan or Tiant did has nothing to do with this.
I'm not sure what the temperature was in Cleveland during the game, but it couldn't have been very warm. So it's cool temperature, early in the season, reached his designated pitch count.
This shouldn't even be debatable that Francona made not just the right decision, but the only decision. There simply was no alternative decision in play here.
a factor overlooked is the weather in Cleveland in early April, high 40's with wind off the lake. there's really no reason to "prove" anything and risk injury. take a look at the injury reports around MLB already, cold weather plays havoc.
and please, no Football parallels. MLB players will often be hurt from standing for close to a half-hour in sub 40-50 degree weather only to need to accelerate to full speed in a heartbeat. in the case of a pitcher, there's a reason why they sit in the dugout between innings with their pitching arm in the sleeve of a jacket.
There's a big difference between doing everything the fans want and allowing a pitcher to continue for a historic rarity no-hitter. If a manager does only what the stats say, they'll end up in a similar boat. It's the nuance of being able to read situations and flows that make a great manager or you might as well have a computer do it (and lose all the fans).
Games are over 3 hours and the TV breaks deaden the cadence. Attracting fans through a 162 game season is a challenge. If they didn't have their pocket computers to stay amused, the stands would be empty.
Bit...you have a chance, a very rare chance to accomplish a feat that happens twice, maybe three times a year.
By the close of the fifth inning, people start noting that the starter has not given up a hit. An inning later the improbable seems possible. Late in the second half of the seventh fans are holding their breath with each pitch....
Then it is over. Not because of a bloop single or a perfectly placed bunt, but because the idiot manager pulls the starter.
I am sure everyone left the stadium thrilled that he was not pushed into another two innings.
Yeah...sure.
Trevor Bauer is slated to make 13 million dollars this season. Risk damaging a pitcher's arm, a pitcher costing 13 million dollars, in pursuit of some "historic rarity" as you call it, which actually has already happened 299 times? That makes no sense at all.
I don't see an event happening 299 times in MLB as a historic rarity. Johnny Vander Meer pitching consecutive no hitters...now that is a historic rarity.
Read situations and flows? That is a silly remark for this situation. Nobody can be sure when a pitcher might damage his arm, tear his rotator cuff, etc. Sticking to the pitch count, especially in the situation already mentioned, is the proper move to help prevent that.
Frankly, the premise of fans losing interest because of this is absolute nonsense. If any fan no longer chooses to watch MLB, it certainly won't have anything to do with what happened here.
There may be a number of reasons for some fans to lose interest in MLB. However a manager doing the right thing, and managing the correct way to benefit the player and his team, certainly isn't one of those reasons. Actually, watching a well managed and well played game of baseball, to me and I think to the vast majority of fans, is the way we like it.
Why does it seem that pitchers keep getting weaker and weaker (replace with less durable or whatever else to describe it if you so choose) with all the strength and conditioning improvements over the decades? I can't think of a single position in any other sport where this is the case. Back when I loved baseball, a pitcher was only pulled when they were pitching poorly, physically injured, or obviously had no gas left in the tank. Now it takes more days of rest for fewer pitches.
And no other team sport has the equivalent of the no hitter. Hockey has the hat trick but that is not awe inspiring. Basketball. Triple double, triple triple a joke at best. Beat Wilt's 100 point game and we can talk. Football. I dunno 200 yards rushing, maybe 250. That stuff is forgettable.
Next time a pitcher no hits through 7 the fans have to wonder whether he will get hit or whether he will get pulled. I didn't worry about that when watching Billy martin or Sparky Anderson managing.
Remember when pitchers threw 300+ innings consistently and had no arm issues. I thought athletes were supposed to get better as the decades go by. I just look at the players of yesterday in such higher regard compared to the players of today. Some of these players used to have jobs in the off season and were still HOFers.
How many times have you been in the stands for one?
Yea, and Billy had a reputation of "Martinizing" his pitching staff, and it wasn't a compliment.
Never saw one while in the stands.
The Indians won the game, and the starting pitcher left the game presumably with a healthy arm ready to pitch again in the next start in a quest for a championship.
As a Phillies fan, i would take that type of result in every single game, and some silly fan entertainment premise be damned.
You are easily satisfied. That is good for the owners..
Look at it this way though. Nearly 7 months from now, one team out of the 30 in the league will win the World Series. Fans of the other 29 teams will be suffering some sort of disappointment.
Good idea to have a little fun along the way. Maybe the pitcher gets the no hit, maybe he doesn't but witnessing such an attempt in person (or even on tv) is special.
I followed the Diamondbacks with tepid interest 20 years ago. Not really a fan but i liked to have the game on the radio at night. As the announcer tried to sell tickets, he would say that any time Randy Johnson pitched, there was a chance at a no hitter. He was sort of right as Johnson pitched a perfect game not long after.
You really want to remove that from the game?
What it looked like.
Pitchers throw harder today, with greater velocity and throw year round from an early age. Combine that with the amount of money invested in these guys and it's easy to see why workloads are monitored the way they are in today's game. It's just the way things are. If you are baseball fan, you still love you the game.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Not many pitchers have Nolan Ryan's arm.
Of course seeing a complete game no hitter would have been special. However many more potential no hitters get broken up after the seventh inning than come to fruition. So the chances were much greater that what you wanted wouldn't have happened anyway, even if Francona would have foolishly left his pitcher in the game.
If someone is a MLB fan and watched their team's pitcher throw a no hitter thru 7 innings, knew their team's manager did a competent job throughout the game, and the result was their team won the game...I would call that fun. If that's being easily satisfied then so be it.
Phoenix has a retractable roof. Summer game time can be 110 degrees plus. Diamondbacks will announce a few hours before game time whether the roof will be open or shut for the evening.
Maybe teams can announce ahead whether or not a pitcher will be permitted to complete a now hitter if possible. That way the expectations will not be dashed in the late innings.
You're not going to let this go are you.
As long as they don't announce an increase in the price of beer, fans wouldn't mind that.
Only the sixth inning here.
Old man-itus we want the stuff that me loved fifty years ago to be the same. Half dollar hot dog seemed expensive as everywhere else it was a quarter.
Quit loving baseball in the early 1990's. Quit following it after Bonds and Sosa and McGwire ruined the game. 2015 on or so...I'll read a bit in the newspaper (another dinosaur) and follow the WS online.
But goddamn, some stuff is sacred. Hell, for decades you couldn't even mention a no hitter in progress for fear of jinxing the thing. Now it is nothing to a major league manager. If the pitcher was truly in distress of some sort, maybe. But based on a pitch count alone. Come on.
because the idiot manager pulls the starter.
i will say what apparently everyone else is afraid to say or perhaps missed --- Coinstartled has effectively disqualified himself from any sort of respectability by referring to Terry Francona as an idiot manager. poll the League, all the Teams and all the players, all management and then show me the short-list of names who don't hold him in the highest regard. on top of his baseball knowledge he conducts himself with dignity and grace which should be a goal we all strive for.
Terry Francona has more accumulative Baseball knowledge than Coinstartled could ever hope to muster even on his best day, and that clearly isn't this day. the stupidity required to make that comment is only surpassed by your demonstrably ignorant understanding that is regularly displayed here about Sports in general. you are sometimes entertaining but almost always ridiculous in your assertions.
back to the discussion at hand and the 100 pitch count observed by MLB Teams --- I think it is worth noting that there is a clear difference in throwing hard and in throwing the nasty pitches that modern pitchers throw. it puts additional stress on their arms that just didn't occur in the past. also, i think pitchers are held victim to the training schedules that are in place from High School on up to the Big Leagues. it is the direction the game has moved in, starters are really expected to only pitch seven innings/100 pitches, so they pace themselves for that. then they give way to the guys in the Bullpen who have trained in another way.
we may not like it, but when it works as planned it is a thing of beauty.
The insults are not necessary to advance your point, Keets. If you are willing to accept a coldly mechanical game without the passion that baseball fans once enjoyed, you are entitled to your view.
I don't believe that pitchers are nearly as fragile as you are suggesting. Perhaps along with umps considered replaceable by machinery, human pitchers could easily be benched in favor of a programmable device that would work cheaply and could throw strikes endlessly with little rest.
Even if his arm is about to fall off,,,you just gotta let him keep going until he gives up that first hit or finishes the no-hitter. Most pitchers, even most MLB ones never even come close to getting one, and he may never get another chance.
I really really wish commentators would keep their beaks shut about a no-hitter/perfect game in progress...it drives me crazy when they jinx them like that!!!
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Wonder if the Cleveland announces are homers that swallowed hard on the decision, or correctly blasted Francona.
Well they can mention it after the pitcher was taken out...because he sure can't get a no-hitter now!!!
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
The insults are not necessary to advance your point, Keets.
and yet they are necessary for you to make your point, how does that even make sense?? your irrational status keeps going upwards, maybe you should slink off to wherever it is you go and be quiet for a few days, let this dog sleep and reappear with some rejuvenated logic. you really appear as an idiot right now.
For all those that say in the good old days, pitchers pitched 300 innings and never got hurt, you are not paying attention. Look up Steve Busby. As a Royals fan, I was brought up in the lore of what could have been with Busby. Threw a no hitter in each of his first two seasons and the first one was a cold day in April in Detroit. By his third year, Busby was having arm troubles and had surgery after that. First rotator cuff surgery for a pitcher, he never recovered and needless to say, most of you don't know who Busby is.
He is not in the Hall of Fame (he only won 70 games) but his two no-hitter baseballs are there. Ought to make you think a little bit about was it worth it.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I would think that Steve Busby would say it wasn't worth it. Cost him not only a lot of extra enjoyment playing in the major leagues, but a lot of money as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if managers such as Francona, look at what happened to Busby and others as examples as to why they have pitch counts and such in place.
Actually, while the no hitter is a great stat for the pitcher......it is one of the MOST boring things in the world to watch.
I would rather watch paint dry!
Bauer would likely have likely needed 150 pitches to complete that no hitter with no guarantees of doing so. What pitcher has thrown 150 pitches in a regular season game in recent memory let alone April? It would have been neglectful to have left him in.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You gotta be kidding, Jon.
I dunno, if you read this thread top to bottom, we have at least a third that are in agreement that the pitcher should have been left in. Should Larkin or Estil slink off as well?
JMHO, they haven't insulted the manager, but they don't want to accept the game as it is. logic is pretty simple: early in the season, in cold weather, in a not yet important game that the Team will probably win anyway.
Logic is the game is no longer for the fans. At least not the ticket holders. Commemman is not a fan until deep into the playoffs. Season is six months long. Playoffs are six months away. Give the damn guys that paid for the stadium and the admission a reason to cheer in April.
1984 I went to a Detroit game with my brother. He was buddies with Rocky Roe and got us seats right behind the plate. Roe was calling the balls and strikes.
Game went 18, maybe 19 innings. Great night that I will always remember from that championship season. Maybe they should end the tie games now at nine innings and send everyone home. I mean that was a whole additional game that the poor athletes had to play.
Coinstartled would have been a great fan in attendance watching the gladiators during the olden days at the Roman Coliseum.
There would have been severed arms, legs, heads, and dead bodies everywhere. But don't worry about the health of the participants, never mind the carnage, it would have brought joyous entertainment along with pleasant memories to Coinstartled, and that's the important thing.
Coinstartled is either a liar or deranged, he claims to hate the game but can't stop talking about it.