Do you collect Standing Liberty Quarters??
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
I don't collect SLQ's even though they're a nicely designed coin. However, I was looking at some coins this morning, albeit at eBay, which led me to the PCGS price Guide to compare seller prices. While I don't expect things to line up close I did see something in the pricing that makes me shake my head: the sometimes alarming difference in price for a same grade coin with the Full Head designation. In some cases, especially as the grade moves from MS63 up, the difference is twice the non-Full Head price.
Though I don't collect SLQ's I still enjoy looking at them and over the course of years I have noticed a striking anomaly. Often, the date is struck really well and the head is weak, and vice-versa. Seldom does the entire coin seem evenly struck unless the grade is MS65 and higher but even then some areas can be weak. Even on FH designated coins the ear hole is weak/non-existent or the entire hairline isn't well defined. The result is a lot of extra money for a little detail.
This morning I was looking at Type One coins. The dynamic outlined above seems most egregious with "S" Mint coins starting at MS63, about 2x non-Full Head prices for same grade Full Head coins. Looking at the PCGS Pop Report, the numbers for FH coins are far greater than the numbers for non-FH coins. I'm sure part of that can be explained by the fact that submitters will always submit the best coins they can find so more Full Head designated coins makes sense --- but --- since these 1917's were struck from fresh dies it makes sense that they should most often have great detail, resulting in a Full Head.
So the question is does it make sense to you to pay this sort of premium for such little detail that should be expected to be there in the first place?? If you were buying a 1917-S Type One Standing Liberty Quarter graded MS65 by PCGS would you pay twice the money for the little extra detail in the head??
Sorry, it's early and the coffee is working well.
Al H.
Comments
The books by Kline have had a huge effect on this market. He was the specialist, "go-to" dealer for these coins when he was alive, and there was a significant cult of collectors who supported the market. If the full head matters to you, the prices differences are justified because some date and mint mark combinations are quite scarce with the full head. Add to that that the coins must grade at least AU to show it, you have quite a bit of market pressure to push the prices upward.
From my perspective I have three MS-65, full head pieces to complete my type set. I really don't find the poorly struck coins to be that attractive. Therefore I can see where a dedicated collector would be willing to pay the premiums if you were going after the complete set in Mint State.
@keets I agree, kinda the same way I feel about FB Mercs and FBL Frankies! Often when I see a FH SLQ my first reaction is "yeah, but look at ..."
Kind regards,
George
I wouldn't unless other critical details are also present-namely a full shield.
Full shield?
I guess there will be a lot Standing Liberty Quarters that you will never collect. I had this issue with a very good customer when I was a dealer. If that is your requirement, you are looking for the impossible.
These were relatively small coins that had an overcomplicated design in a small space which had to be mass-produced. They were not little medals that were given special treatment at the various mints.
I would never even attempt a full date-Mint set of these with full detailing. As you say-that's pretty much impossible. But for a Variety Two example of a nice strike the shield would have to be complete. These do exist I'm sure.
I got away from them list interest for now
Bill, i certainly understand your perspective. elsewhere on page one is a thread by me about "Type Collecting" so that's the perspective that I'm viewing these coins from. to that end I believe what koynekwest is saying makes sense, to look for an overall nice, evenly and well struck coin. the beauty of Type collecting is that there's no hurry to find anything because everything is in play. if I wanted a nice 1917-S Type One i would choose the non-FH.
Nothing surprises me in the current numismatic market. It has become a never ending game of inventing ways to extract more money from buyer's wallets. This has become a hobby of plastic, stickers and labels. Remember, some people crave slabbed coins with labels indicating that they were among the first millions struck!
Someone remind me to do a thread scrutinizing So-Called Dollars that I also do not collect
I have been hunting the Full Heads that all the TPGS's missed since the late 1980's. Since the early 90's when Jay was alive I must have sold him well over 50 which supported my other collecting goals.
Below is a photo of a ultimate full head and if you don't like paying for head with a sharp eye and some patience you can find these slabbed for free... Well not free, but without the FH premium.
see, that coin even has the well defined hairline and the earhole while the date area looks a bit weak. Frank, what was your best no-FH FH that you have found.
Hmmmm..... Excellent analysis Al.... I have never been one to focus too much on these 'grading details' such as FH, FB, FBL etc.....Though I did think of some rather shady humor while reading your thread...
I know you will immediately understand.... 
Cheers, RickO
1926-D and 1926-S made for sweet looking checks walking off the brouse floor.
Also early on when TPG first started there's SLQ dates and grade points the services just didn't designate head fullness on.
See how Broadstruck's example above has nice, complete detailing on the head, shield, date, and drapery. It's certainly a superior, early die state coin and fits the bill for me. I wonder if a simple date set could be assembled with a strike like that (excepting the 1916, which never shows this level of detail, that is.)
If you have infinite resources and patience, have at it. I assume that you will need grades like MS-67 to complete this project as well, which will make it even more difficult.
I will tell you this when I discussed the requirements my Standing Liberty Quarter customer set down for me with Jay Kline. He told me, “You don’t have a customer.” In other words, the customer’s expectations were beyond something that could be met.
The die states to not cover all of the problems. The dies have to be perfectly prepared and gap in the press has to be set exactly right. There are multiple factors at work here.
I think QDB railed against this issue for many years, lobbying against things like FSB Mercs with otherwise mushy strikes.
I think a simple "full strike" would work better. I tried to assemble a full strike date set of Buffs-I believe it's impossible. I doubt that a FS date set of Walkers is possible, either. And these are just date sets. I did an extensive 13 year, 250,000+ coin study of the strike for Buffalo nickels, including the four major varieties and found that 23 of the 68 coins in the set were not seen fully struck.
I am neither a type nor SLQ hobbyist.
I would pay extra for a more nicely struck head example depending on how much and my prospects for recovering that in a sales transaction.
I have collected SLQ's for years and although FH coins are nice, I want as full a strike as possible. I want a full shield with all the rivets and a full inner shield, all the toes,the crease in the gown with the buttons at each end. If you find a full strike it will usually have a full head also. Some dates may never have had all of the above but that's what the hunt is all about. Here is a nice example of what I'm seeking.
The head is the least focal of all the potential areas for weakness IMO; shield, knee, and date on type 2a at least. That is a lot of high points competing for metal. I'd choose a coin with a full date, knee and shield and mostly complete head than a FH with 1/4 flat rivets and a flat knee. The pancake heads are terribly ugly.
@1946Hamm Now that is Very Nice!
I dabble in them a bit. I own approximately 15 dates, in PCGS/NGC 63 thru 66. All colorfully toned.
Not really a FH guy, but I do like them struck fairly well. Incredibly beautiful U.S. coin design. I may try to assemble a set at some time, although nicely toned SLQs cost an arm and a leg.
Dave
Unfortunately some collectors purchase a Choice or Gem Mint State 1917-P Type I, and they think that they can purchase the rest of set that is struck like that. Unfortunately that first coin is totally misleading.
1946Hamm - AND a die clash as well? UNREAL!!!
i like them as bullion , circulated with dark fields I think is the best kind
I collected them until my girlfriend said my 1917 T1 FH looked like Ashton Kutcher
No, not really - but as Broadstrike discussed, I think the value is in non-FH pieces with near FH and is well struck otherwise (shield, rivets, knee, etc.) I will collect non-FHs, but there still needs to be some head detail - the "flat head" ones looks terrible.
Did you ask her who she thought you looked like?
Love the design...unable to tolerate the grading standard and emphasis put on the so-called full head. The shield, like it or not, is the focal point of the design and takes up more space on the obverse. Look back at prior posts and you will see the idea of a full shield designation was suggested years ago.
This series represents a problem in spades for numismatics... There is just an inability to at least consider and move grading in a progressive direction to reflect the best possible way in describing and capturing the state of perservation of a coin series. A realistic standard that measures the totality of the design, striking issues and variations in the quality at mints responsible for the production of the coin series.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
To fully appreciate the FH coins, you have to see a "SCOOP" head.
I saw a full head designation in a 1945 issue of "Numismatic Scrapbook" magazine so it's been around for a while.
@CaptHenway is the man for the "FULL TAIL" coins.
I personally never pay attention to same grade coins with the FH, FBL, FT, FB, or the like from a collection viewpoint. If a single coin, such as for a type set or just to have, to represent the series then yes if available I would be interested in it, but not at twice the price for the same grade.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I should have written prior threads instead of posts...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I started collect SLQs about 5 months ago as a side project. I only have three so far, a 1930, 26D, and 27. I'm only buying examples with nice color. I'm less concerned about numerical grade/surfaces, as finding a decent strike with luster and nice color is incredibly challenging in and of itself.
I just bought this 27 today. It is FH but the shield is a bit weak. I find it harder to find a full shield than a FH.
Designators like FH, FL SB, etc... Are not there to describe the coins full attributes; at least not all the time; they are there for registry points. That is why FH SLQ's are sought out and why the $ premium is so wide.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That's a very pretty 1927 quarter.
I only own three SLQ, one for each Type. Within reason, I could care less about FH, as long as the coin is attractive.
Back in the day, I bought this for maybe 10% above bid for non-FH, and the premium was for the toning. It's graded PCGS MS66. The price differential between 1924-D MS66 and MS66FH has for the longest time been greater than 13 X. I have seen quite a few SLQ, of other date/mm, that have less detail than this one that are designated FH, but I suspect that given the date/mm this coin is graded like a Franklin 1953-S FBL, it's gotta' be beyond sharp to get the designation. Needless to say, given how much of the coin was there AND it's toning, I happily paid the negotiated price.
or rotated a little bit...
U.S. Type Set
If it was $100 to $200 maybe. If $2500 to $5000 no way!
I don't like the ones with the unfilled die line running down the leg looking like wear.
I purchased a 1920 from a fellow forum member some years ago for $100, delivered. It's probably the ugliest looking coin in my collection. Sent it in to our host a few years ago. Surprisingly, it came MS-65FH. I don't have pics readily available. I'll go look for it !!!
I just completed a short run of 1917 PDS T1 quarters. All had very good details and attractive colors! I was drawn to them because of their similarity and strike. I could imagine all of them sitting side-by-side in an album for years acquiring their toning!
Here's a non PCGS FH designated Full Head that's in my collection.
First set completed by me Franklin Halves in a Whitman folder all choice BU to Gem BU
Second set completed by me SLQs all coins EF 45 to AU 58 nice matching set execpt the 1916 64 FH in a Dansco album and I cracked every coin out of the holders or bought them raw. What a great set. >sold<
As David Hall wrote in his Mercenary's Guide to Rare Coins "all TYPE ONES ARE FULL HEAD
I never said; I agreed with Mr. Hall, but it does give you an idea about what Type one premiums shouldn't be.
Keets cool posting. here!
Those first two set completions give you an idea how old I am. LOL
I DID NOT CRACK THE 1916 FH out of the holder.
She said George Clooney
Sweet Coin!
The only SLQ I own is this piece that I found in my paper route money back around ‘81-‘83, I’ve always kept it.
Type II , but the hard part was getting them (kinda matching) in the same in the old white holders
Wow! That's a deal breaker. One of the two of them had to go.
I have 3 pcs also for my Type Set. All PCGS MS64FH CAC.
I have collected these, but none that would impress anyone here, given the other terrific images I've seen. I have no full head SLQ's, a partial head from my collection is shown below. (Oops, hope it's OK to post images from another TPG :-)
