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Legality of 19th century large cent electrotypes

RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

Questions about the contemporary legality of 19th century electrotypes of large cents and half cents has occasionally come up on this and other message boards. The following extracts from RG104 E-235 vol 015, pages 415 and 427, and the Coinage Act of 1873 reference, might clarify (or obfuscate) the discussion.

Page 415

Page 427

Act of 1873, Section 62 text:
**Coinage Act of 1873. Sec. 62. **
"That if, any person or persons shall falsely make, forge, or counterfeit, or cause or procure to be falsely made, forged, or counterfeited, or willingly aid or assist in falsely making, forging, or counterfeiting, any coin in the resemblance or similitude of any of the minor coinage which has been, or hereafter may be, coined at the mints of the United States; or shall pass, utter, publish, or sell, or bring into the United States from any foreign place, or have in his possession any such false, forged, or counterfeited coin, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporation, or any person or persons whatsoever, every person so offending shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by fine not exceeding one thousand dollars and by imprisonment and confinement at hard labor not exceeding three years."

Comments

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Were any people convicted of felonies?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Newspapers often contained articles about counterfeit coins and the capture and conviction of perpetrators. But I've seen nothing about coin collector electrotypes. Hobby publications suggest they were accepted as legitimate educational items but not bought and sold as real coins.

  • 17751775 Posts: 72 ✭✭✭

    I would like to see PCGS or NGC certify them / They are very collectable and some great examples

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2019 9:05AM

    @1775 said:
    I would like to see PCGS or NGC certify them / They are very collectable and some great examples

    What's a good way to get these certified? Does there need to be an influential collector with a large number of these?

    Not a large cent, but PCGS did certify this one:

  • 17751775 Posts: 72 ✭✭✭

    Have a marvelous Birch Cent / 1793 half cent/ 1804 large cent/ 1796 half cent/

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1775 said:
    Have a marvelous Birch Cent / 1793 half cent/ 1804 large cent/ 1796 half cent/

    Try contacting our hosts? I've always wondered what convinced them to start slabbing chop marked Trade Dollars. Perhaps something similar can happen here?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, never understood "authenticating" mutilated coins.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2019 11:34AM

    Though the Mint did make electrotypes in the mid-19th Century, I strongly suspect that whoever answered the letters in 1878 did not understand the question.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2019 1:32PM

    I've not seen the original letter. Could be in E-1 or E-229 (box 3 of 17 covers this date range).

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think that - at least now - electrotype of a coin would be as much forgery as any other method.... Though as I understand it.. the crime comes in passing the fake as real. If made and so labeled for display, that might be accepted. Cheers, RickO

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the key word is "intent." Making an electrotype for the purpose of collecting a rare, unaffordable piece is not the same as intending to defraud someone into paying foe a copy, thinking it is the real McCoy.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps a case could be made for the argument that “intent” can protect the maker of a counterfeit from prosecution without making the coin not a counterfeit. Let’s say that I win the Powerball and decide to give my wife a necklace with an 1849 $20 in it. Money is no object and a credible copy is made for me. It goes into a bezel on necklace and she wears it every day.
    Eventually we die. Is the coin not still a counterfeit?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Under modern US law "intent to defraud" is implicit in making a thing look like a coin, In the 1873 section the interpretation might have been a little different, although Secret Service cases from that era and courts routinely reject the "I didn't intend" argument. The rejection appears to be based on the perpetrator making more than one item, or in uttering it in commerce.

    To me, Linderman's initial reaction is consistent with the above interpretation.

    Maybe there's an expert on 19th century US law out there.

  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are tons of electrotypes listed in the 19th auction sale catalogs.

  • ChopmarkedTradesChopmarkedTrades Posts: 495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Try contacting our hosts? I've always wondered what convinced them to start slabbing chop marked Trade Dollars. Perhaps something similar can happen here?

    The reason that PCGS started assigning numerical grades to chopmarked Trade Dollars was due to the influence of a very well known collector who personally valued them and made a push for them to be slabbed as they are today, the tradedollarnut himself.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2019 7:13PM

    Maybe this beautiful coin can be slabbed -- only minor damage -- probably from pork chop marks....! ;)

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