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Here we go again(not clever shilling)
Jimmy_Commonpants
Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
Good grief, this is getting stupid.
No other bidder close to me and then the seller uses his shill account to push it up thinking I had snipes set.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
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Here is the bid history. I struck through my screen name. I was winning at $28.79 with a max bid of $48.75, then the seller shills it up $21 at the last second hoping I had a higher snipe. This stuff burns me because its clear that wasn't a legit bidder with 96% bids with the same seller.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Putting in a max bid early seems like an invitation for this kind of shilling.
How frustrating! Sorry to hear this is happening.
Sounds like a big old invitation to block this seller.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
BLOCK!!!!
BIGLEAGUE SportsCards
"Respect The Hobby"
www.bigleaguesc.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/bigleagueseller
Yeh, I realize that. I guess my fault is I don't expect every other ebay seller to be dishonest and especially those with six figure feedback scores. The price he pushed it to was clearly not even legit for the lot of cards. I just didn't want to follow the auction and "knew" i'd get them for $30-$40(and I was right on where they would sell if you ignore his shill bids).
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Who is the seller?
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stupid print dots
EBAY needs to do something about this. 9 retracted bids in 6 months should tell them something. They need some sort of policy to suspend or close accounts with too many bid retractions. I don't know what too many is, but surely less than 9 in 6 months.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
It's moronic to think that particular item was shill bid. I guaranty that seller doesn't care what that lot sold for. That stuff is just dumped out and they don't care in the least what it sells for. On January 18th they sold a lot of 14 1984 Fleer Update Brett Saberhagen cards for 43.00, ebay item number 352566520137. Then your lot of 7 1984 Fleer Update Brett Saberhagen cards sold on March 22, ebay item 352618300464, for 49.75. It didn't sell for 49.75 because of any shilling. It sold for 49.75 because 2 collectors who really love off center Brett Saberhagen cards battled it out and bid too much money for something they would have been thrilled getting $25 for. Seller's like bidders like you two, but you lost to a real bidder just like you, and there's no way that item was shilled by the seller.
How does your theory explain the other bidder's 96% bid history with the same seller with over 600+ bids in the past month?
I also strongly doubt that NESC/4SC would bother to enlist shill bidders for a $40 lot like this one, as well. They list literally hundreds and thousands of lots and some bidders like to routinely bid on the same seller's lots, especially if it's a large seller, which is the much more liklely explanation for the high bidding % with NESC than anything nefarious.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Did you really start a shill bidding thread about a $49 item? Sigh.
This
NESC, which is aka 4SC.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Oh, no kidding? Didn't know that. Good to know, and that explains something else as well.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
information is king. thus, why people eschew sniping and instead bid prematurely is something i will never understand. it's like being dealt pocket rockets at the hold' em table and making the injudicious decision to flash them prior to the flop. there is no advantage gained by doing so. all it does is open the floodgates for you to be put in a precarious position, which often times results in you a) paying more than you should have, or b) losing out on an item altogether.
in this particular auction, Curt Schilling did not make an appearance. what happened was the OP triggered the sirens for mr. 236, and he proceeded accordingly. dude wanted the cards, so he went hunting as the auction drew to a close. nothing less, nothing more.
and 96% means next to zip when it comes to the big fish on ebay; many have cult-like followings
First retraction= 6 month suspension. Any retractions after that, lifetime ban.
careful naming certain entities around here, or you will get the ban like I did awhile back!
Agreed. This is another advantage to sniping as competitive nature will often cause bidders to increase bids higher than they otherwise would just to "win" the item.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So, the "shill" bidder placed 3 bids and ended up winning the auction. If it were a shill bidder, they wouldn't want to win the auction. There are eBay buyers that do most of their bidding with 1 or 2 sellers so having 96% of their bids with this seller doesn't bother me. The 9 retractions do but that is not what this thread is about.
James
I've actually had conversations with EBAY staff in India. The lady was super nice and provided me with some info I'm sure she wasn't supposed to share. But there are several "high profile" ebay names that never have items paid for (when I say items, i mean lots and lots of items). Thus, showing that many items are shilled. The real way to stop this is to have the person who one pay for the item and charging the seller the appropriate fees. If buyer fails to pay for more than one item in a six month period that account is inactivated. If it happens to the same seller more than 5 times a month, then that seller will be required to have to vet their auction bidders, much like PWCC had to do with the 1997 Jordan a weeks ago.
I didn't hear about this... what happened in this case?
I know everyone snipes but every time I go to sign up for a sniping service and they ask for my EBay ID and password I get nervous and do not sign up. To me a free service asking for that information (even though I know they need it) is a security risk I am afraid of taking. I may be alone in that - but I will bid at time of auction if I can and if I really want a card and cannot will bid early. As long as my bid is what I would be happy to pay for the card I do not see the risk. I buy 50’s to 70’s HOF in PSA 8 and 8.5 so maybe the fact that I am not bidding g on niche items seems to lower the risk some. I have only felt I was bid up once and I did not win the card anyway.
I thought this was going to be a thread about Curt Schilling.... in any case. Ebay shilling is something always in the back of my mind. I try to bid on auctions at the last minute and use a lot of self-discipline not to over bid. I lose a lot of auctions, but then other opportunities for the same card come about.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Mamma mia, here we go again?
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
I agree here, especially the last sentence. I know there is this never-ending debate about "snipes" with people on both sides, so I'm not going to go there again. I would also think that allowing a third party to operate your account also violates your terms of service with ebay, but maybe I am wrong on that.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Ok, guys... Let's keep in mind that slamming individuals and sellers is not allowed around here. I know that people have theories on shilling and frankly, some of the info gathered is convincing. But truth is that there is no hard proof and accusing people/companies of shilling is a big deal. As mentioned by members above, there are ways to avoid someone running up your bids in the fashions discussed. Implementing some of them should greatly reduce the number of times you are affected by these situations.
Let's get back to some more enjoyable card talk. Who got something cool this weekend? Post it somewhere and let's take a look!
WTF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I love a good sniping discussion. Can't wait for another one.
96 percent is very loco
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
winner
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
No, it isn’t. It’s actually relatively common for people to latch onto sellers, especially large ones.
90%+ of my bids are likely with PWCC. Why? Because I’m bidding on very select things, I know when their auctions are going to start and end, and I don’t have time to wade through the same auctions day after day looking for new listings.
That's why I never bid until literally the last second for anything I buy through auction (which isn't often since I use best offer more). No opportunity to shill bid me.
I always put my high bid in with about 15 seconds to go, so the shillers don't have time enough to raise it.
I am not debating this but I have to laugh at these last two posts. You guys have to realize the snipe shill is the go to bid on EBAY. That is how you get shilled the hardest. Launch the snipe and hope to tie up someone in the air or win the card and either don't pay or buy it with another account that you didn't use to consign it with and list it again.
By the way the one time I know I was shilled the hardest was when Bill (LSU Tigers) shilled me with the snipe shill and hit me for over $500 above the next bid. It wasn't his card he just decided to play with the auction to try and cost me money. In reality this kind of bidding happens all of the time and people just pretend because they snipped and their bid wasn't already in that everything was on the up and up.
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I don’t understand how it is shilling if it is not his card. That is running you up, and is being non-cool, but if he won the card he would have to pay for it. That is not shilling.
@PaulMaul
He “sniped” a card that the entire board at the time knew I was bidding on. He had no intention of winning or paying just to make me spend more. The point is he lobbed a snipe for $500 over the current bid and moved my bid up as much. You could have bid the same amount the second the auction started and had the same result from a nefarious bid.
With the number of online auctions for cards being reduced significantly over the years and a large percentage of those being run by consignment sellers there are countless auctions taking place where the shill bid is a snipe and not the old “safety bid” where a bid is placed early and forces active bidders to push it higher to find a current winning level or string bids to gently push the price higher and never become high bid.
With the vast majority of serious bids taking place at the end just blend in with the crowd. If you win your own item no biggie either don’t pay and get a strike or pay with a different ID and try it again.
The point is you can be shilled with any type of bid. The notion that you avoid shill bidding by sniping is comical. Many will argue you greatly reduce your chances and that’s debatable but to think you can completely eliminate it by any means of bidding is extremely naive.
Billy! There's a blast from the past. Man did he stir up some sh*t along the way. Never personally had an issue with him. Did some deals, think he sent some cards in for grading for me at one time but no problems. I know that can't be said for others. Last I knew he was running a bowling alley down in Texas.
If you are rich, then it doesn't matter about shilling period.
I really dont see a way to completely rid the hobby of it. I think it comes down to we need to bid what we are comfortable with paying, knowing that at some times we will be shilled. I am sure it has happened to all of us.
I Mostly do my transactions through BIN/BO. only rarely, like the Mirror Gold PWCC auctions from January, will I bid on auctions.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I just think we need to be more precise with our terminology here. There is punishment bidding and there is shilling. Both result in a higher price for the auction winner caused by a bidder who doesn’t really want the card, but the motivations are totally different, and I don’t believe there is anything against eBay rules in punishment bidding. If you accidentally win the card you are stuck with it.
Well put. I see it this way, too, Craig.
I've been shilled a few times, but I'm still alive and my life has not spiraled downward because I lost out on a card. I, too, never put in a bid on a card the first day it's listed -- if I do, I'm inviting a shiller. I have not been shilled, though, in a long time. I learned my lesson. I let other bidders establish an "entry" price and then I put in my "comfortable" bid with about 5 seconds left. I win more than I lose.
Andy
Call it whatever you want a snipe was used.
EBAY doesn't kick you off for not paying so under no circumstances are you stuck with it. You just don't pay and eventually the seller realizes they aren't getting paid and has EBAY refund them their fees.
I only found out about it because he was bragging about it on that underground site many from here posted on. I think it was Carboard Talk or something.
Whatever his motivations were it was a bid placed with no intent to actually win and pay for the card and the same exact scenario happens all of the time just under different circumstances. With him it was personal. With shill bidders it is just business but they have moved on to sniping because so many use that form of bidding and so many believe you can't get shilled that way.
Bottom line is you can get shilled on EBAY no matter how you bid.
We have all been shilled and didn't even know it.
So many items that get auctioned off have hidden reserves that are established through a snipe at the end.
I agree completely that it is just a cost of doing business and if you are willing to pay X and if you got it for X so be it.
Agree it's possible to get shilled via snipe. It also happens the other way a ton (i.e. step bids to push up to your max). Which one happens more often? Since we don't have hard data to prove our points, it's impossible to scientifically answer that question. People also naturally assume that bid % in the 90s and above is always a shill bidder. Having run a number of cards very recently through PWCC and not bid on a single one, I checked bid on some bidders and there were absolutely some in the high 90s (some even 100%) who were winning the auction at certain times. My hope was it didn't turn off potential bidders.
But, to me, logic and common sense would suggest that shilling is far more easily done (and with much less risk) incrementally and well before auction close than via snipe. For a couple of reasons:
1) We agree that eBay does not kick these people off. But sellers want to get paid, and unless they are in on the gig, they are going to block shillers who win and don't pay. Yes, one can always set up another account and do it again, but that's inconvenient when there are far easier ways to snipe (with less risk)--see #2
2) To avoid getting blocked from major AH listings, shillers bid in increments so as to avoid winning the card. In the event that their increment takes them into the lead, they can simply retract and avoid winning. You can't do this when you snipe.
Somewhere in another thread I spent way too much time writing out a couple of detailed scenarios of where sniping would have saved you money vs. when not sniping would have saved you money. For me, I don't want anyone to know what I'm willing to pay as that's information they can use against me. If they decide to snipe shill, they run a much higher risk of winning/getting blocked than step bidding/retraction.
Your scenario with Bill was based on different motives and was likely a one-time event just to f%#k with you. Garden-variety shillers are all about making more money for themselves (since it's their card).
I have just learned to accept the fact that people are going to shill you. The only thing you can do is put your high bid in at the last seconds of the auction, that way the shiller won't have time to shill you.
I have never been shilled before
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
It makes absolutely no sense to snipe a shill bid. Most popular items are going to have a large amount of bids placed by early bidders who will bid until they're high and stop. If somebody outbids them they'll go in again and again to become high again. If nobody outbids them they're figuring they're going to get a steal and won't bid again unless necessary. Shill bids placed early give all of those type bidders ample opportunity to bid over and over again, driving the price up for the shiller. If the shill bid is sniped at the end all those bidders won't have an opportunity to bid against the shilled bid, driving it closer to the price the seller will accept. So unless a real snipe bid comes in, and that snipe bid could be lower simply due to the sniper thinking his snipe should be adequate based on the current price, then the card will sell to the shiller. The shiller has wasted their time and opportunity to sell the card and has tainted the card for the next time it comes up. If the goal for the shiller was to actually sell the card at a minimum price, sniping the shill bid gave all the early bidders not opportunity to bid again, and all the snipers no opportunity increase their snipe if the current price is higher than expected.
Kbkards is putting on a clinic!