Wheel Mark discussion w/imagest.

Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 13, 2019 5:21PM in U.S. Coin Forum

EDIT: IF YOU KNOW, Post a :)

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Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said: :)

    I was getting ready to be really disappointed when I was notified that you posted in the discussion. LOL. Thanks for playing nice.

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 9,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @ErrorsOnCoins said: :)

    I was getting ready to be really disappointed when I was notified that you posted in the discussion. LOL. Thanks for playing nice.

    I smiled because I really like that coin, very cool example :)

  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭

    Great example of this! Can be very tough to photograph too.

    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

    CN eBay

    All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭

    :)

    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

    CN eBay

    All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
  • JeffnluJeffnlu Posts: 140 ✭✭✭

    I am guessing that it was cleaned with a scotchbrite.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 12,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :) I think

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jeffnlu said:
    I am guessing that it was cleaned with a scotchbrite.

    Good guess. Where do you see the cleaning?

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :) I've got an otherwise beautiful Peace $1 which has suffered the same fate. :(

    Collector, occasional seller

  • DiggerJimDiggerJim Posts: 154 ✭✭✭

    @Jeffnlu said:
    I am guessing that it was cleaned with a scotchbrite.

    I was about to say “I have no clue “ and then I saw Jeffnlu’s comment.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 4,651 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The fixing end of a #2?

  • JeffnluJeffnlu Posts: 140 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @Jeffnlu said:
    I am guessing that it was cleaned with a scotchbrite.

    Good guess. Where do you see the cleaning?

    Mainly the big scratches by the rays and the dirt outline by the lady.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 18,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :)


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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The hairlines look like it’s been gone over with a goat hair brush in the area, perhaps to remove a spot.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jeffnlu said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @Jeffnlu said:
    I am guessing that it was cleaned with a scotchbrite.

    Good guess. Where do you see the cleaning?

    Mainly the big scratches by the rays and the dirt outline by the lady.

    That's the spot. My poor image makes the coin look dirty but in hand it is "white" and original except in the area you point out. Now here is another question. If I were to tell you the coin was original EXCEPT for that patch of tiny scratches, how could you do that with a polishing pad? Also, what would be the purpose of cleaning one part of the coin's surface?

    @BillJones said:
    The hairlines look like it’s been gone over with a goat hair brush in the area, perhaps to remove a spot.

    I disagree about the brush. There is no way anyone could make this mark with a hair brush if they worked on that area for a year! :wink:

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 1:27PM

    @JBK said:
    The fixing end of a #2?

    Number 2 pencil. Never thought of that but I disagree.

  • Mdcoincollector2003Mdcoincollector2003 Posts: 245 ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 1:20PM

    It was minted in 1944.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mdcoincollector2003 said:
    It was minted in 1944.

    Good Guess! :)

  • dogwooddogwood Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭

    I’m not a newb, and I don’t know for sure.
    You were on about nose grease last week so that’ll be my guess.
    Or dog nose leather rub.
    Yeah. I like dog nose leather, that’s my answer.

    We're all born MS70. I'm about a Fine 15 right now.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I disagree about the brush. There is no way anyone could make this mark with a hair brush if they worked on that area for a year! :wink:

    I have done it on a piece of silver. Further ruined the coin in the process.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible.
  • Bigbuck1975Bigbuck1975 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭

    I was thinking it kinda looked like a wheel mark

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    just used a fingertip with either a jeweler's cloth, or little bit of silver polish paste, to remove a toning spot.

    Successful BST transactions with 138 members. Recent: DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, BAJJERFAN, Valenti151, GotTheBug, okiedude, jhdfla, LRCTom, ajaan, Raybo
  • rickoricko Posts: 65,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Crud removal cleaning.... Ooops... :) Cheers, RickO

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,709 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Incomplete fracture, Need a boot:)..Have no idea.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :) <3

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    just used a fingertip with either a jeweler's cloth, or little bit of silver polish paste, to remove a toning spot.

    Yes, when you have a patch like this it does not indicate the entire coin is cleaned.

    This characteristic is called a "wheel mark." They look differently than a pencil erasure mark. Looking at the coin, there is no evidence of discoloration under the mark. This indicates a spot was not removed as the disturbance on the surface is not very deep.

    These marks can be totally missed unless the coin is tipped and rotated into a specific orientation to the light. If you miss the wheel mark this is a 65. If you see it, the coin is either lowered in grade (ANA Guide allows a light patch as this to be graded MS-62 or 63) or detailed.

    @BillJones said: "I have done it on a piece of silver. Further ruined the coin in the process."

    There is a big difference between hairling a coin with a brush and leaving a mirror-like "flash" on the surface due to a wheel mark. :)

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 17,674 ✭✭✭✭

    I honestly don't know yet am afraid to venture my opinion as should I be correct it may well be assumed I knew the answer all along and was playing dumb.

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    I honestly don't know yet am afraid to venture my opinion as should I be correct it may well be assumed I knew the answer all along and was playing dumb.

    aw, go for it.

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting, but what caused it, i.e., what type of wheel, and at the mint, a bank?

    Successful BST transactions with 138 members. Recent: DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, BAJJERFAN, Valenti151, GotTheBug, okiedude, jhdfla, LRCTom, ajaan, Raybo
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When there is rubber residue we can be certain it is from a coin counting machine, If a coin is lightly buffed, sometimes the wheel digs in too deeply in one spot. Since this coin is not cleaned that was not how it occurred. So who knows for sure. I don't care. I remind folks to tip and rotate a coin in strong light so as not to miss a "wheel mark."

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the dangerous kind. I don't know how the top two TPGS's handle this type of hairline patch anymore but in the past, it would drop a gem coin down to a 64.

    You won't see them unless the coin is held in a particular way.

    Yikes!

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see it, are you describing roller marks that were a result of turning the bar into thickness for coin? or counting wheel scrape when put into machine to count and/or roll?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it's post manufacture then the coin is either damaged or AU.

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure I get the "wheel mark" diagnosis, either. That term seems far too specific for what could be a wipe with a cloth, or slide across a table, or a rub with a hand, or some other cleaning material. Not sure where or why we would assume it was a "wheel" (or mechanical) of any kind. (The Walker seems intentional cleaning, while the Washington looks like mishandling).

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 6:13PM

    @TommyType said:
    I'm not sure I get the "wheel mark" diagnosis, either. That term seems far too specific for what could be a wipe with a cloth, or slide across a table, or a rub with a hand, or some other cleaning material. Not sure where or why we would assume it was a "wheel" (or mechanical) of any kind. (The Walker seems intentional cleaning, while the Washington looks like mishandling).

    We are splitting hairs here but I am wrong because words convey an image.

    I NEVER heard the word "wipe" applied to a coin until the late 1990's when that's what the former dealers who graded at the ATS called them. I'm going to go with you on this one. Light "wheel marks" are better referred to as a "wipe" because it is a matter of DEGREE. So it is not until the patch of fine parallel hairlines becomes deep and noticeable that it should be called a "wheel mark." Sorry for any confusion I caused in this post and thanks for the correction. I will try to remember this obvious distinction in the future.

    It is a wipe
    It is a wipe
    It is a wipe
    It is a wipe
    It is a wipe
    It is a wipe
    It is a wipe
    It is a wipe <3

    PS The walker has a "wheel mark." :p

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    If it's post manufacture then the coin is either damaged or AU.

    I can hairline a coin a whole lot (PMD) before it becomes an AU.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭✭✭

    if it is wiped, then it is CLEANED

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said: "if it is wiped, then it is CLEANED."

    I disagree. A light patch of parallel HLNS on the cheek of a coin just indicates it has been "mishandled." It will still be straight graded by every TPGS.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OMG....

    I can see that it is time for the ANA to assemble a group of folks and nail down some definitions for the industry. Just about EVERYTHING that happens to a coin after it is minted occurs in DEGREES. They need to be defined. When does a wipe become a wheel mark? When does a hairline become a tiny scratch?

    If I say a coin is cleaned, no one knows what the coin looks like now BECAUSE EVERY MAJOR TPGS puts polished coins into holders labeled as "Cleaned."

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good post and discussion. Tilting is very important, but I will also add that acquiring and using a good quality magnifier, like an Eschenbach, is also very important if you are going to be inspecting serious coins for potential purchase. Subtle surface defects become more obvious with a good glass.

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  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PMD is also wear = AU. Always.

  • air4mdcair4mdc Posts: 324 ✭✭✭

    I believe that Walker was once my coin........I remember late one night I was eating some Ritz crackers while putting some of my coins away for safe keeping. . I wasn’t paying attention, the TV was on, and I dragged the cracker across that very coin. I just blew the crumbs off. It’s bothered to me to this day.

    Couldn’t resist......thanks for this discussion. Unfortunately there had been a day when I noticed something on a Proof ASE or AGE and wiped her with a dry cloth an created the same marks. Never do that again.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many of the 1942-D DDR-001 quarters show exactly this on the eagle's breast.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 15,681 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of the best ways to see these is to hold it away from you, tilted somewhat away, and then rotate it under light that really isn't showing you the coin very well. All of the sudden, you'll see a bluish flash when the light hits the hairlines just right. If you look at the coin straight on, you'll probably miss it. The 1951 quarter above should no-grade from those hairlines.

  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭

    The pictured PMD IS a WHEELMARK. That is a fact, for those questioning it.

    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

    CN eBay

    All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭✭

    Wheelmark is the first term that popped into my mind too.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said: "PMD is also wear = AU. Always."

    Roger, I enjoy most of your off-hand humor that pops up in discussions but THIS ONE IS NOT FUNNY AT ALL IMO, most members here respect you, look forward to your posts, and learn about numismatic history right from the source.

    PMD IS NOT WEAR. I wish you would modify or delete this nonsense quickly. Thanks! :wink:

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 12,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good thread!

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