Coinfacts Update

Tomthemailcarrier · February 12, 2019 5:33AM

A month ago today Coinfacts images were cut from the site. They were a valuable tool for the collector base. I understand that PCGS is a business and the opinions of dealers do carry more weight than individual collectors. However, a successful business must balance the needs of the individual collector versus the desires of the industry heavyweights.
It was stated that the image removal will be addressed fully in the coming days. PCGS is currently the industry leader. You are recognized as the “gold standard “ in the hobby.
In the coin business our word is our bond. Trust is won over time and is difficult to regain once it is lost. When will PCGS update us on the situation? One strategy that is sometimes employed after a controversy is to hope that it dies down and then forget about it. I believe that PCGS is better than that.

Zoins · February 12, 2019 6:48AM

I wonder if, and how, people have changed their collecting approach now that a month has passed?

Catbert · February 12, 2019 6:53AM

I have zero confidence that the overwhelmingly negative feedback posted here in several threads will result in changing their decision. Further, the explanations given for the change were dubious. And, to have gutted the pictures without communicating to their collector base should be a case study in what not to do to introduce change.

ChopmarkedTrades · February 12, 2019 6:59AM

The question is, how much business will they lose as a result of this decision? In all likelihood, it will be minimal, there is still a pretty substantial preference towards PCGS over NGC, particularly with the competitive strenght of the Registry. The collector base can complain about the problem in taking away such a resource, but unless they make their voice heard with their wallet, the move will stand.

Zoins · February 12, 2019 7:01AM

@ChopmarkedTrades said:
The question is, how much business will they lose as a result of this decision? In all likelihood, it will be minimal, there is still a pretty substantial preference towards PCGS over NGC, particularly with the competitive strenght of the Registry. The collector base can complain about the problem in taking away such a resource, but unless they make their voice heard with their wallet, the move will stand.

It does seem like the loss of photos on CoinFacts could make Registry Set competition more fierce if people focus on grades more than individual coins. Of course, if people simply stop buying anything that isn't top pop or absolutely rare, things could go the other way too.

If the reason is privacy as stated, I wonder why it seems okay for the top 3 coins to have less privacy?

LoveTypeCoins · February 12, 2019 7:13AM

On Feb 3 topic “long beach newps and report” the poster mentioned the “meet the expert” question he asked Mark? about this and was told to expect a change in around a month. Fingers crossed!

jwitten · February 12, 2019 7:36AM

I just ran into a situation today where it would be helpful to have the pictures back. An ebayer claimed my 1908 $2 1/2 was not uncirculated because there were not strong details on the eagle's wing/shoulder. Of course, the 1908 did not have sharp details there. It would have been helpful to be able to send them the link with all the pictures to verify that.

Unknown · February 12, 2019 7:37AM

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keets · February 12, 2019 7:50AM

there is every possibility that PCGS finally decided to make a change based on the actions of not those who complained, but those who abused the grading with multiple crack/submit attempts. the result as we know was redundant images that proved to be an embarrassment to PCGS and proved to highlight a flaw in the grading process. should be judged so harshly for trying to save face while they work to fix a problem we all were aware of???

it's sort of strikes me a short-sighted and selfish that so many are upset about this. my images are no longer in the public domain, so what?? I can still put them there if I want to. in the meantime, I feel confident that PCGS will figure out how to let everyone continue to play the "crack-out game" while they come up with a way to "fix" what was wrong with the CoinFacts Images.

everyone should hope that the "fix" isn't all coins running through the surface scanner, cause if that happens its game over.

U1chicago · February 12, 2019 7:58AM

@keets said:
“everyone should hope that the "fix" isn't all coins running through the surface scanner, cause if that happens its game over.”

Who is it game over for?
Seems like that could be the right path towards consistency and eliminating “gaming” the system. Does the hobby benefit from all the crack outs and resubmissions?

Zoins · February 12, 2019 8:01AM

@jwitten said:
I just ran into a situation today where it would be helpful to have the pictures back. An ebayer claimed my 1908 $2 1/2 was not uncirculated because there were not strong details on the eagle's wing/shoulder. Of course, the 1908 did not have sharp details there. It would have been helpful to be able to send them the link with all the pictures to verify that.

PhotoGrade exists, but it only does type, not year. Seems like bringing the CoinFacts photos back or adding photos by year to PhotoGrade would help.

https://www.pcgs.com/photograde/#/2.5Ind/Grades

Moldnut · February 12, 2019 8:14AM

It was a rain filled weekend and I was hoping to look at some wonderful 1794 cents on Coinfacts only to find out they no longer exist. What a let down!

Boosibri · February 12, 2019 8:26AM

I'd get banned for posting what I think so best to just say that it is a shame that the company decided to cater to the few loudest voices in the industry and the interests of a few vs the anonymous masses that serve as the foundation of the hobby. For all of the great dealers that have existed they all eventually leave the hobby with no great loss to the efficiency or health of the market. The health of the hobby is determined by the end consumer.

OGDan · February 12, 2019 8:42AM

@LoveTypeCoins said:
On Feb 3 topic “long beach newps and report” the poster mentioned the “meet the expert” question he asked Mark? about this and was told to expect a change in around a month. Fingers crossed!

That was me. When I spoke to Brett in Long Beach, he was clear there was no timeframe commitment, but was also clear they are coming back in some form. I would guess they want to bring it back once, and get it right, without any thrash to fix mistakes.

I’m glad, because this isn’t one of those “ignore it and the problem goes away” situations. IMO the move damages the brand and collector trust in that brand until it’s remedied.

asheland · February 12, 2019 9:04AM

@jwitten said:
I just ran into a situation today where it would be helpful to have the pictures back. An ebayer claimed my 1908 $2 1/2 was not uncirculated because there were not strong details on the eagle's wing/shoulder. Of course, the 1908 did not have sharp details there. It would have been helpful to be able to send them the link with all the pictures to verify that.

My 2.5 Indian happens to be a 1908 and that was something I noticed and confirmed via coinfacts

Unknown · February 12, 2019 9:16AM

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Edthelorax · February 12, 2019 9:17AM

I for one have changed my buying habits. Being inexperienced at the MS grades, I would constantly reference Coinfacts as I shopped for deals on Ebay.

Not only was I learning the difference between a 63 and 64 in many types, I could see when one die variety of a Bust half was worn and what looked like an AU coin was actually a 62.

Coinfacts was also invaluable when diagnosing counterfeits. Having a reference to turn to that was reliable showing what a circulated genuine date is supposed to look like help me have confidence buying a coin that I would have been afraid to otherwise.

For me the worst part was I had been gathering the coins I wanted to have graded for over a year. I finally sent them in Dec. 27, all with Trueviews so that they could be compared to potential buyers as to grade and color. I paid all that money thinking they would be displayed with the other coins of that date, only to have the rug pulled out from under me. No notice, warning or ability to change my mind. What a waste of a couple hundred.

On top of all of that, they tightened the grading, and changed something about the way they took the Trueviews, making all my coins way darker and bluer than they are.

Talk about a bad firs impression.

oih82w8 · February 12, 2019 9:18AM

Hopefully some encouraging news will come about this soon. @HeatherBoyd @BrettPCGS

Unknown · February 12, 2019 9:23AM

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Zoins · February 12, 2019 9:24AM

@Edthelorax said:
I for one have changed my buying habits.

You've mentioned the benefits of CoinFacts but how have your buying habits changed, aside from not having it as a reference. Are you buying less, buying different, submitting more, submitting less, etc.?

OGDan · February 12, 2019 9:56AM

@FadeToBlack said:
I'm sure they'll bring the pics back at some point... I think the data suggested to them that the pics weren't that important (The offhand "3% of clicks" remark by, I think it was HB, in a long gone thread) so they didn't have any second thoughts about blasting them away while they worked to resolve the issues... Obviously they didn't realize that 3% of clicks accounts for a LOT of buying decisions.

Logically, comparing the coin you're looking at potentially purchasing versus the others in their database would be the final step in determining if you wanted to purchase it or not... That just didn't occur to them. Remember Brents background comes from being a wholesaler, not a retailer, so this isn't usually something he'd have a lot of experience with. His experience is with working amongst other professional dealers, moving larger lots of coins. I'm sure he's gaining some invaluable experience from stuff like this, and smoother sailing will come as he gets more experience in managing the demands of PCGS's market under his belt.

It's really just a question of how many weeks/months will they be gone? It's a total stab in the dark, but I am hoping for mid-late Spring.

I'm HIGHLY skeptical the "3% of clicks" comment is indicative of how important the photos were to people, and how much they were viewed. I mean, think about it. If you click to a page of photos, you might spend an hour scrolling through them and not clicking anything else. On the other hand, the way the page was set up one must click all over the place to navigate the site. This completely skews the data. So I don't question the accuracy of the "3% of clicks" data point, but I very much disagree that this means the feature wasn't very important. It's obvious, just look at the blow back.

PhilLynott · February 12, 2019 10:01AM

I had no clue how often I used it until it was gone. No less than 5 times this last month I started to wander over to coinfacts and had to stop and go "oh, never mind can't check into this".

Unknown · February 12, 2019 10:03AM

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Edthelorax · February 12, 2019 10:13AM

@FadeToBlack said:

@Edthelorax said:
On top of all of that, they tightened the grading, and changed something about the way they took the Trueviews, making all my coins way darker and bluer than they are.

Sorry for your troubles... but I just want to point out this part, isn't necessarily a change in how TV's are done, but how each individual photographer they have approaches your coins. If you're unhappy (and I have been at times in the past), reach out to Phil Arnold and he can help you out a bit. If you catch it in time, he'll pull the package from the mail room to reimage the coins.

You can always leave notes for the photographers too, which I have yet to take advantage of, but will whenever I do my next sub.

That is good information to know, thank you. Unfortunately this was my first time with Trueviews. I submitted 23 coins through my dealer and didn't get the cert.#'s back until I picked up the coins. I understand that 23 coins is nothing to a company, but it was an awful lot to me.

My pics.. 2 before grading, after grading and TV. The closest one in color is the one in the holder.

Edthelorax · February 12, 2019 10:41AM

@Zoins said:

@Edthelorax said:
I for one have changed my buying habits.

You've mentioned the benefits of CoinFacts but how have your buying habits changed, aside from not having it as a reference. Are you buying less, buying different, submitting more, submitting less, etc.?

I am buying less and different. I love browsing Ebay, but it's not easy to begin with. I still can do it, It just takes a lot longer. Like I had said, I don't have the experience, so I have to reference many types. I think
I got the Lincolns down pat, and Indians well enough. Lower grades are easy for me as that is what I used to collect.

I haven't shopped for any Bust coinage since the change for example. I was just starting to look for under-graded and cross-overs when the change occurred.

What I have been doing is buying raw, reselling the coins that i think will grade yielding a value under $250 and saving those above $250 for grading. Coinfacts helped me make the decision, is a coin worth sending in?

As things stand now, I definitely wont submit as much as I was working my way up to. I have increased my involvement with coins a lot in the past 2 years. I love them and like cherrypicking. Making money at it makes it possible for me.

I didn't like having to look at 13 versions of the same 1925D Lincoln at 65 red and one at 65+ trying to figure out where mine would land. Now that I got the 65, I am glad I studied them, It will go back in and get the +. Without Trueview that wouldn't have been an easy choice.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to PCGS or anyone here, but this is how I honestly feel.

I have faith that Brett and those involved will do what I believe is the right thing.

Ed

MonsterCoinz · February 12, 2019 11:35AM

@keets said:
there is every possibility that PCGS finally decided to make a change based on the actions of not those who complained, but those who abused the grading with multiple crack/submit attempts. the result as we know was redundant images that proved to be an embarrassment to PCGS

While that is the obvious answer, they already rebutted that claim. The removal was for "privacy concerns", whatever that means.

my images are no longer in the public domain, so what??

They're not your images, they are PCGS's.

cameonut2011 · February 12, 2019 11:45AM

Be careful with your comments - multiple posts appear to be missing. I don't want to see anyone get banned.

oih82w8 · February 12, 2019 12:47PM

Choose your words carefully.
#thinkbeforeyoupost

TomB · February 12, 2019 1:00PM

Yes, my completely honest and most likely totally accurate post has been zapped.

SSR · February 12, 2019 1:25PM

Another key issue regarding coinfacts on how it can better improve is the issue regarding how ebay sales are still being reported. See pictures -> A seller listed a coin for no reserve, it sold, the data is now up on coinfacts and on the cert page, and the seller has re-listed it for a tiny amount higher. Im not implying that the seller himself was the higher bidder, i have no proof, and that in fact someone may have bought it on jan 28 paid and through standard shipping could have shipped it, then the buyer returned it or cancelled etc and now decided to re-list it for more than what it sold for. I personally see nothing wrong with what is going on, again im not outing any seller i have no proof, but this is one of the thousands of instances that prices CAN be manipulated through ebay coinfacts reporting. pcgs needs to take charge for correctly reporting( since every ebay auction cannot be verified they should not be reported, just stick to big auction houses data, in no industry am i aware of reporting data knowing that the information can be highly wrong, and offering solutions like "hide ebay" sales, there shouldn't be a hide option, if the data is valid. Sale happened JAN 28 2019, and is up now. Issue is not with seller, but with reporting ebay sales that is clearly not indicative of what it really sold for. Cool gold cac bust half nonetheless!

RB1026 · February 12, 2019 1:26PM

I LOVE CoinFacts and have enjoyed using it since its inception. Back in the day, I paid for it. HUGE benefit to me personally when PCGS made it a FREE platform. Many, many improvements have been made over the years and I still consider it the best resource available to me when researching and buying coins. However, I think the gap has been severely narrowed without the photo library that I literally used every time I considered a purchase.

Has the loss of photos impacted my purchasing? Not yet. Can I see that in time I will rely less on CoinFacts without that photo resource? Yes. Without images, it becomes considerably more like the other platforms in the market and I am less drawn to the PCGS brand. As a loyal PCGS customer, I am very hopeful and confident that PCGS is working to correct this and will introduce a new/improved version to address the concerns of all. I have no information to this effect, but PCGS has proved historically to be the industry leader and if I can see the benefit of the photo library to the hobby, surely they do as well. Time will tell, but I am betting on PCGS to fix this and come out with the best version of CoinFacts yet.

tradedollarnut · February 12, 2019 1:28PM

A coin I was interested in bidding on wasn’t one of the three images. Guess the industry don’t want me adding $100k to its liquidity next month. Oh well

Boosibri · February 12, 2019 1:36PM

@TomB said:
Yes, my completely honest and most likely totally accurate post has been zapped.

That is super disappointing

Kyle · February 12, 2019 1:44PM

@PhilLynott said:
I had no clue how often I used it until it was gone. No less than 5 times this last month I started to wander over to coinfacts and had to stop and go "oh, never mind can't check into this".

I'm in the same boat, I keep going to check images on CoinFacts only to remember they have been removed.

sniocsu · February 12, 2019 1:46PM

I personally never used it; but would have loved to have now that I know it existed 😒

Unknown · February 12, 2019 1:53PM

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Unknown · February 12, 2019 1:56PM

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Nic · February 12, 2019 2:16PM

@tradedollarnut said:
A coin I was interested in bidding on wasn’t one of the three images. Guess the industry don’t want me adding $100k to its liquidity next month. Oh well

Mine was a lesser 40K coin.

BrettPCGS · February 12, 2019 2:35PM

@OriginalDan said:

@LoveTypeCoins said:
On Feb 3 topic “long beach newps and report” the poster mentioned the “meet the expert” question he asked Mark? about this and was told to expect a change in around a month. Fingers crossed!

That was me. When I spoke to Brett in Long Beach, he was clear there was no timeframe commitment, but was also clear they are coming back in some form. I would guess they want to bring it back once, and get it right, without any thrash to fix mistakes.

I’m glad, because this isn’t one of those “ignore it and the problem goes away” situations. IMO the move damages the brand and collector trust in that brand until it’s remedied.

ReadyFireAim · February 12, 2019 3:13PM

It was something I relied upon heavily until I got the hang of grading saints.
Not so much now.

There really weren't that many "fab-5" saint pics when it was working so I'm kinda on my own now anyway.

I noticed the pop numbers haven't changed on the ones I know were way high so the issue doesn't look like it has been fixed yet.

I made my set available for checking out if you're missing the pictures we used to have access to.
It's 100% True-View & clickable in my sig line if interested.

Unknown · February 12, 2019 3:43PM

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HeatherBoyd · February 12, 2019 4:52PM

We always encourage our customers to provide thoughtful feedback and commentary, however, spreading misinformation and inflammatory posts will not be tolerated. I would rather spend my time working on solving problems and providing new services to you all instead of moderating this thread so I am shutting it down. Thank you for your understanding.

Coinfacts Update

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