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Shipwreck became Trainwreck
Currin
Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
Was anyone surprised at the lack of interest in the S.S. Central America gold coins in the Regency sale last night. Was the starting bid set too high? I think all of them were passed.
My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
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Perhaps it is time to just let the market set the price instead of the consignor or auction house? Has the market passed its peak for S. S. Central America coins?
I think that the most recent offering was aggressively priced, and material from the first group is readily available.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
That's the danger with extremely high reserves. There's an item on GC that I've seen for the last several with the same too-high starting bid. Stack's is also notorious for this.
I have never understood the pricing on the shipwrecked material and have always taken a pass.
With the abundance of the first release, and now the second release, available I think the prices will start to pull back to what the market determines and my guess is lower.
Does it cost the assigner anything when items are passed, or all the cost falls on the auctioneer?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Some houses have a fee for a reserve, but a big consignor could probably get that waived
Think about it for a sec. There is more and more material coming off the ocean floor. How would that equate to higher prices? Might be fun to own a shipwreck coin but not with those premiums. Rare coins are not so rare anymore with certain dates (and that's likely to continue as more are brought to the surface).
bob
For a major consignment it will all depend on the contract terms the two sides agreed to. It is extremely unlikely that these terms will be made public.
I do not see a reason to pay a huge premium for a coin that happened to have sat on the bottom of the ocean for a long time and then had to be conserved to make it saleable.
I'd much rather have a coin that didn't get wet and didn't have to be conserved.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I understand premiums for shipwreck material - value is always determined by story, to some extent. That being said, you have to take supply and demand into account...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I have an 1857-S double eagle that is in an NGC holder and not marked as such, but it had to have come from that hoard because the grade is MS-65. As a type collector,I love the coin, but I know where the prices headed, down.
This second group has finally saturated the market. There are only so many buyers for “trophy coins,” that have a huge supply, at 5-figure and high 4-figure numbers. You can put the coins in special holders with a few pinches of gold dust, but after a while, those collectors and wealthy causal buyers, who have the coins, are satisfied and there are fewer and fewer consumers.
These coins have become so common that they are almost generic.
One of the medium to long term concerns with these coins is that some of them have “gone bad.” By that I mean that some pieces have developed really ugly copper staining. I might be wrong, but if the coin has not gone bad after a decade or more, it’s probably stable. Still for those who are looking at the recently salvaged group, that should be a concern.
As for the conservation part, I don't have a problem with it if the coin is stable.
In the Regency sale, about 10% of the lots were passed. Mostly high end stuff. Is that usual?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
IMHO the Shipwreck coins were way way overpriced.
I like the gold foil slabs from the first release better than the gold dust slabs from the second release. The former shows off how special the coin is in a classy way while the second seems a bit gimmicky to me.
I was there last night. I viewed the coins the day before. I liked the $5.00 piece in 64 CAC but I just couldn’t pull the trigger. I hate opening lots. The coin I went there for I got crushed.
I love the story but I’m not a big fan of these new holders either
FWIW the $20 57-s in 65 PCGS CAC gold labels have held their price. I’ve been wanting to add another piece hoping for a down tick
The one I own is still one of my favorite pieces
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That is a beautiful gold coin! That coin would be worth the trip to the SDB
Congratulations
@Justacommeman.... That is certainly a beautiful gold coin... Congratulations on a real beauty.
On the topic of shipwreck coins... I am not a fan of such things, or provenance to notable prior owners. Show me the coin, name a price, forget the story..... I will either deal or walk.
Cheers, RickO
Different strokes for different folks my good friend. I love a good and real back story with coins. Adds to the lore for me at least
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
They'd have fared better if they were found in a coffee can in the dirt.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Mark, that coin is SWEET!!!
@Justacommeman .... Hi Mark....It was not my intent to denigrate anyone's collecting choices... Merely stating my personal opinion.... And I will restate, that is a BEAUTIFUL gold coin...Cheers, RickO
I love a coin with a cool provenance.
Oh I know! Thanks!
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The quantity of coins recovered from ship wrecks and hoards will always increase. If buyers do not also increase, prices will decline for nearly all such pieces.
A shipwreck coin is appreciated by non-collectors. You don't have to know anything about a coin, but once you mention this coin has been at the bottom of the ocean for 150 years - that's great history.
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I can’t understand why collectors pay big premiums for shipwreck coins that show obvious signs of seawater damage. The “good story” can only carry these coins so far.
It’s easy to say “I can’t understand why....” about something someone else collects. We all have different tastes and interests. What makes you want to collect a particular series or coin may be different than what drives me. I personally enjoy the SSCA $20 I bought this year as much as any other coin in my collection. Im glad we don’t all have the exact same interests, otherwise this would be a boring hobby.
I like the idea of a ship wreck coin and paying a small premium makes sense for the holder and effort to get it all done. But a large premium? No thanks. They were all minted in the same place. Same coins. Just one type has a different story then the other and possible damage that makes it less desirable if removed from the holder.
@ianrussell makes a good point that shipwreck coins have a great story for non-collectors. I loved reading about the S.S. Central America on Wikipedia.
But there are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of young, enthusiastic collectors with money to burn on the internet just waiting for the chance to buy such items aren't there?
Well said.
I can certainly see the interest in the SSCA.
The markets do not show this either at present or in the past. An analogous situation, at a much lower prince of entry point, are the silver pieces from Nuestra Señora de Atocha. These were sold in multiple markets and ownership versions - collector's coins to jewelry - and remain prominent among tourist traps in Florida.
From my standpoint I really like them, but the imposed premiums make these an easy PASS for me.
The point here is not to condemn what people are buying. It is question how much they are paying. I have seen these coins offered at the shows for four figure prices with recently manufactured wooden boxes included with them and a write-up about the ship. I am not saying these stories aren’t interesting, but is a sea damaged and cleaned coin, which might be worth $100 or less if it were not part of this recovery operation, really worth thousands of dollars?
I guess the question really is, is this a “one-way market” where sellers charge high prices which don’t reflect what they would be willing to pay? One of the ways to discourage new collectors is for them to find out that they “have been had.” That is the point I’m making here.
At the recent FUN show, I saw certified coins with obvious sea water damage that were in straight graded holders with no story connected to them. Are these coins over graded? I think so, but if you disagree, then you, as a dealer, need to be willing to buy them for inventory to support the prices you are asking.
I am not sure the people on the SS Central America thought it was a great story, ditto Titanic.
I have trouble collecting something that gets it's "fame" from having lots of people die in agony.
Let's me be clear...here are the specific coins that the OP mentioned...when I stated that I thought they were too expensive I was only referring to the half eagles pictured below...a 57-S MS63 from SSCA1 sold in a 1/18 HA for $26K....the opening bid for the SSCA2 MS63 in the Legend auction was something like $40K?
I love the shipwreck story and I bought a SSCA2 half eagle last year from Legend Numismatics....I just think at prices of $50K+ these specific coins were overpriced...
(ignore the 57-S G$1...that's not SSCA)
What are the tell tale signs of sea water damage? Do the TPGs consider sea water damage to be market acceptable?
On gold and silver coins, the seawater effect gives them dull surfaces with no mint luster. If the coin was Mint State when it went into the water, it can have full design details, but a matte finish. Moving seawater is like very fine sandpaper. It can remove a very thin layer of the surface. Coins in the middle of a pile of pieces can emerge “perfect” with “as it was made” sharpness and luster, like the many 1857-S double eagles.
In the past easily visible seawater effects were not market acceptable for a straight grade.
I venture to guess that if Kuenker would have had them to sell, they would all have reached record pricing...sold!
they have "just the Clientele" for stuff like that. new pricing records at every auction...... so THEY say
Never got the hype. Just like the coffee can saddle coins. Hell I have crap buried all around the property, not an uncommon thing. Some willing to pay much more for a story, whatever floats your boat. Congrats!
You'd think the increase in supply of high grade specimens would decrease prices.
I've never owned a sea salvage gold coin, nor a CC Morgan, just can't pay what such a common coin costs, and never fell for the marketing hype or packaging.
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