Gold Albany Bi-Centennial Cradle of the Union So-Called Dollar - HK-511

Zoins

Anyone follow the gold HK-511 Albany Cradle of the Union So-Called Dollar? It celebrates the bi-centennial of the First American Congress, where Benjamin Franklin presented first plan of Federal Union, precursor of the Articles of Confederation of 1776 and of U.S. Constitution of 1787. I like it's use of Franklin's snake representation of the colonies.

Mintage was limited to the following along with the issue price.

• 50 Gold (.900 fine) - $68.75
• 1,250 Silver (.925 fine) - $3.50
• 4,000 Bronze - $1.50

The gold ones don't show up that often so they may be worth tracking. I wonder how many have been melted?

More info: https://so-calleddollars.com/Events/Cradle_of_the_Union.html

NGC PR64 - 2019 FUN - $3,360.00

A NGC PR64 just sold for $3,360.00 at FUN. I like this piece and put a bid on it but wonder if there are pieces that have cleaner fields, though I have to say from the 2 others I've seen, none are super clean.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/so-called-dollars/1954-medal-albany-200th-anniversary-cradle-of-the-union-celebration-gold-hk-511-r7-pr64-ngc/a/1291-5454.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116

NGC MS64PL - 2014 Long Beach - $4,406.25

https://coins.ha.com/itm/so-called-dollars/tokens-and-medals/1954-albany-200th-anniversary-cradle-of-the-union-ms64-prooflike-ngc-hk-511-r7-gold/a/1206-5518.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

ricko

I have always liked that SC$.... being from upper NYS and immersed in it's long and interesting history, it has an attraction for me. Cheers, RickO

keets

this is a medal that highlights how Gold fascinates. to find its actual value I would need the weight to calculate "Melt Value" and then a simple subtraction from the hammer price tells me what a collector values it at. if the weight nets 1ozt/.999 fine the medals price to me is in the neighborhood of $1,200 which seems excessive for an R-7 that is only 60 years old with a not very interesting design(and I tend to like all things Albany).

that is just how I think, and as I said, Gold fascinates.

Zoins

It’s .900 fine gold, not .999, so the numismatic premium would be higher.

And yes, gold does fascinate

There aren’t many gold So-Called Dollars and even fewer in full “silver dollar size” vs. gold dollar size, so this is nice for gold bugs. I think a full-size gold So-Called Dollar collection would be impressive.

I like the subject matter of this one as well as it’s much more historical than many other So-Called Dollar subjects.

Here’s a thread on another gold So-Called Dollar posted a while back:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1008869/1920-wilson-dollar-manila-mint-opening-in-gold-hk-1031#latest

keets

It’s .900 fine gold, not .999, so the numismatic premium would be higher

you'll notice I said "net" so I wasn't thinking it was .999, only that the "net" would be 1ozt/.999 fine. what is the weight?? it's probably over an ounce judging by the size of these. I don't have my Silver medal handy, but it probably weighs over an ounce.

Zoins

@keets I don't think it's necessary to get a fine grain measurement on this. You've expressed your opinion of not liking this piece or appreciating the premium that it commands, and I'm on the other side of this. That's okay as not everyone collects and appreciates the same things.

What do you think of the proof-like HK-14 that sold recently? Is that more up your alley?

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1010613/strong-results-for-proof-like-pilgrim-jubilee-so-called-dollar-hk-14#latest

Zoins

@ricko said:
I have always liked that SC$.... being from upper NYS and immersed in it's long and interesting history, it has an attraction for me. Cheers, RickO

I've always liked it too. I like how it highlights the early part of our country's history when the states were still not yet a union. It was a lot of work to put this country together back then.

coinsarefun

I watched this one too as I really like both designs and gold makes it even better.
I was going to toss my bid in but saw it went way to high for my comfort zone.

Zoins

These don't come up very often but I like them and track them. This is the 2nd one I've considered. I like this one a lot and had the top bid for a while but wasn't ready to go all the way at this time. Congrats to the winner.

I'm hoping to eventually be able to track these similar to the Manila Mint opening thread:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1008869/1920-wilson-dollar-manila-mint-opening-in-gold-hk-1031#latest

dcarr

@keets said:
this is a medal that highlights how Gold fascinates. to find its actual value I would need the weight to calculate "Melt Value" and then a simple subtraction from the hammer price tells me what a collector values it at. if the weight nets 1ozt/.999 fine the medals price to me is in the neighborhood of $1,200 which seems excessive for an R-7 that is only 60 years old with a not very interesting design(and I tend to like all things Albany).

that is just how I think, and as I said, Gold fascinates.

I think some people have failed to realize that this is a US Mint product.
Good luck finding any other US Mint item with a documented mintage of 50 pieces that can be bought for less than a $1,200 premium.

keets

you guys are so smart for porcupines.

Goldminers

Well after a long search, I now have this set, which was owned by the Mayor of Albany, Erastus Corning 2nd in 1954, and was passed down from his daughter, to grandson, and into another great collector's set, and now mine. It is a US Mint National Commemorative Set with a great provenance, and I doubt even 20 of these golds exist. There is only one graded at PCGS, for now .

Zoins

@Goldminers said:
Well after a long search, I now have this set, which was owned by the Mayor of Albany, Erastus Corning in 1954, and was passed down from his daughter, to grandson, and into another great collector's set, and now mine. It is a US Mint National Commemorative Set with a great provenance, and I doubt even 20 of these golds exist. There is only one graded at PCGS, for now .

Sweet! Congrats on the pickup! The provenance can't get much better than Erastus Corning!

These are rare and to find one with such great provenance is amazing.

Here's the PCGS one that was on eBay:

Interestingly, I don't see one at PCGS in the pops which go from HK-510 to HK-512/

Zoins

Here's an article written by Howard L. Turner:

keets

Interestingly, I don't see one at PCGS in the pops which go from HK-510 to HK-512.

you're looking at the Mint State listings, this is listed in the Proof section where there is one listed at PR65Cameo. that matches the cert number on the above medal.

BTW, I think it's sort of cool that a medal issued in 1954 has the last two digits of the cert number as 54. I hope it doesn't lose that.

Goldminers

The PCGS 65CAM is #813942. This gold gets categorized as HK-511, Turner A1, or Dean number D1954-1a. For the National Commemorative medals of the US Mint Set from 1940-present, I prefer to use the John T. Dean numbers from his reference book as they are more detailed and cover more of the newer Congressionally approved issues.

I will be sending this set into PCGS, but first I need to try to get some type provenance listed on the slabs documented by them if at all possible. Sometimes I wish the capital holder could just be sealed and graded intact in some way.

Goldminers

@keets said:
BTW, I think it's sort of cool that a medal issued in 1954 has the last two digits of the cert number as 54. I hope it doesn't lose that.

I don't own the PR65CAM certificate ending in 54, and I am pretty sure that one will stay that way. However I think it is sort of cool that I was born in 1954.

Zoins

@keets said:
Interestingly, I don't see one at PCGS in the pops which go from HK-510 to HK-512.

you're looking at the Mint State listings, this is listed in the Proof section where there is one listed at PR65Cameo. that matches the cert number on the above medal.

BTW, I think it's sort of cool that a medal issued in 1954 has the last two digits of the cert number as 54. I hope it doesn't lose that.

d'oh!

I'm okay with the cert number changing, to something with a 1954

Zoins

@Goldminers said:
I will be sending this set into PCGS, but first I need to try to get some type provenance listed on the slabs documented by them if at all possible. Sometimes I wish the capital holder could just be sealed and graded intact in some way.

It would be great to have the provenance on the slabs.

What documentation were you able to get?

Zoins

Here's the logo for the ANS - Albany Numismatic Society which supervised striking of this medal.

It would be great to find out the ANS members that were present at the striking.

This is from the ANS webpage:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AlbanyNumismaticSociety/

Landon6

nice

Goldminers

@Zoins said:
It would be great to have the provenance on the slabs.

What documentation were you able to get?

This set was purchased about 8 years ago from Erastus C. Dudley (Grandson of Erastus Corning II - Mayor of Albany in 1954) He inherited the set from his grandmother (wife of the mayor of Albany - Erastus Corning II). He stated the set had sat in a cabinet for several decades. He also states his grandfather was the Mayor of Albany in 1954, when these were released. The Mayor had two children, a son (Erastus Corning III) and a daughter (Bettina Corning Dudley (married name)). Erastus C. Dudley was obviously a grandson of the Mayor's daughter, Bettina Corning Dudley.

I have email scans of those purchase arrangements and discussions, including this general information above. I would like the gold coin to state Mayor of Albany provenance or something? I never did try for provenance so not sure how to proceed.

Zoins

@Goldminers said:

@Zoins said:
It would be great to have the provenance on the slabs.

What documentation were you able to get?

This set was purchased about 8 years ago from Erastus C. Dudley (Grandson of Erastus Corning II - Mayor of Albany in 1954) He inherited the set from his grandmother (wife of the mayor of Albany - Erastus Corning II). He stated the set had sat in a cabinet for several decades. He also states his grandfather was the Mayor of Albany in 1954, when these were released. The Mayor had two children, a son (Erastus Corning III) and a daughter (Bettina Corning Dudley (married name)). Erastus C. Dudley was obviously a grandson of the Mayor's daughter, Bettina Corning Dudley.

I have email scans of those purchase arrangements and discussions, including this general information above. I would like the gold coin to state Mayor of Albany provenance or something? I never did try for provenance so not sure how to proceed.

That's a great provenance!

I'd start with contacting PCGS.

And I'd try to get the provenance on all 3 pieces, not just the gold.

Goldminers

@zoins Thanks for your advice and information. I will see how this works out. I do have some other documentation of the 1954 presentation dinners, guest lists from 1954 events, etc. They did not have the golds available at the actual
event presentation and they were put in these 3 way holders a bit later from what I read.

I also have a spare 3 way holder like this example above as I think I bought the one that had the gold removed for the PCGS 65CAM medal. Both the silver and bronze are being graded now from it.

Goldminers

Here is one I picked up as it is a nice match to the 1954 Albany gold. I think only 21 were struck in silver. Hard to guess how many are still left. So it is fairly rare, and old, and not minted out of that pesky gold. LOL

Zoins

@Goldminers said:
Here is one I picked up as it is a nice match to the 1954 Albany gold. I think only 21 were struck in silver. Hard to guess how many are still left. So it is fairly rare, and old, and not minted out of that pesky gold. LOL

Awesome medal! Hard to imagine there are just 21 of these!

I'm a fan of Albany medals and have to keep an eye out for these myself now.

I combined your images into one photo to enjoy:

Zoins

I recently ran across the following on the name of Albany which I thought was interesting. The word is derived from the name of Scotland in Gaelic:

Named for the Scottish Duke of Albany, whose title comes from the Gaelic name for Scotland: Alba
[...]
The area that later became Albany was settled by Dutch colonists who, in 1614, built Fort Nassau for fur trading and, in 1624, built Fort Orange. In 1664, the English took over the Dutch settlements, renaming the city as Albany, in honor of the then Duke of Albany, the future James II of England and James VII of Scotland. The city was officially chartered in 1686 under English rule. It became the capital of New York in 1797 following formation of the United States. Albany is one of the oldest surviving settlements of the original British thirteen colonies, and is the longest continuously chartered city in the United States.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albany,_New_York

Goldminers

@Zoins said:
Awesome medal! Hard to imagine there are just 21 of these!
I'm a fan of Albany medals and have to keep an eye out for these myself now.
I combined your images into one photo to enjoy:

Thanks for the info and combined photo. Software used?

Here is some more 1897 Albany medal info. According to the centennial committee report, 501 of these medals were struck in bronze, 21 in silver, and one in gold. The medalist was A. Demarest of New York. His most detailed die engraving was the scene of the John Trumbull painting, Declaration of Independence, mistakenly called “Signing of Declaration of Independence” on HK 74 to HK 79. This Albany medal was his last one. Real talent.

http://www.dickjohnsonsdatabank.com/demarest-abraham-sr.html

Zoins

@Goldminers said:

@Zoins said:
Awesome medal! Hard to imagine there are just 21 of these!
I'm a fan of Albany medals and have to keep an eye out for these myself now.
I combined your images into one photo to enjoy:

Thanks for the info and combined photo. Software used?

I used Photoshop. It's been my favorite fo hand editing for years. There are others but that's what I use.

Here is some more 1897 Albany medal info. According to the centennial committee report, 501 of these medals were struck in bronze, 21 in silver, and one in gold. The medalist was A. Demarest of New York. His most detailed die engraving was the scene of the John Trumbull painting, Declaration of Independence, mistakenly called “Signing of Declaration of Independence” on HK 74 to HK 79. This Albany medal was his last one. Real talent.

http://www.dickjohnsonsdatabank.com/demarest-abraham-sr.html

Great to know that was done by Abraham Demarest.

That being said, I don't think H-74 to HK-79 made the mistake you indicate, though others have. Here's some photos of HK-74-79 from So-CalledDollars.com:

https://so-calleddollars.com/Events/US_Centennial.html

Goldminers

@Zoins said:

Great to know that was done by Abraham Demarest.

That being said, I don't think H-74 to HK-79 made the mistake you indicate, though others have. Here's some photos of HK-74-79 from So-CalledDollars.com:

Thanks for the photo link. I had just copied what was on the databank page regarding the HK74-79 descriptions. The medals sure do not have any "signing" issue.

I think the database text needs to have a comma after independence. Then the mistake mentioned would refer to people incorrectly calling the painting, "Signing...", not the medals. I believe that was the intent of the original document.

Goldminers

Here is the 1897 bronze to go with the silver medal above. Hopefully, I will be able to get these graded this year, but I don't see a reference number from an approved book to do it at our hosts. The old auction info below is secret code to me..

1897 Albany State Capitol Centenary Medal . . . . . . . .
Auctions:. . . . . . . . . . . J&J 19:421, J&J 21:33; PCA 49:455
Collection: American Numismatic Society .0000.999.45136

Goldminers

The Mayor of Albany, Erastus Corning 2nd, owned this one in 1954. It is likely one of the very first struck of only 50.
This 1-1/2 inch diameter US Mint National Commemorative medal contains 1.67 ounces of .900 gold.

Edited to say, I am hoping there is another TrueView photo available with the partial CAM more visible. Lighting matters so much as this looks very different from the picture I took of it above, in the original capital holder, and here.

Zoins

@Goldminers said:

The Mayor of Albany, Erastus Corning 2nd, owned this one in 1954. It is likely one of the very first struck of only 50.

Kudos to PCGS for adding the Erastus Corning provenance to the slab! What a great story for this piece. It definitely found the right home.

Could be worth asking if they can add it to Cert Verification too. I looked it up and there's no provenance listed there.

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/40178253

Goldminers

@Zoins, Thanks and good idea. I will try to get it added. Honestly, I was just really happy PCGS was able to do this provenance for me, as they are so busy now fighting the virus restrictions, turnover, building expansions, while trying to do awards and grading too. I have 15 medals I submitted in mid-July that is still not completed after nearly 3 months.