Since you’re the seller, it likely will not turn out to your satisfaction. So get your money’s worth and tell the buyer to go jump in the river — or whatever act suits your fancy.
Depends on the purchase price, but if it were high enough, I would go into my bank on Monday morning, tell them there was fraud and change my account number. Then, when Ebay forces the return and uses paypal to extract the money, you can simply offer them the middle finger...and the buyer too.
@Cougar1978 said:
I would fight the return thru eBay.
Looks like another type of nut case buyer. I could care less about his reasons. If item removed from orig Holder return privilege void PERIOD!
If they rule in his favor this is factor in causing increased cost of doing business there. All one can do us factor risk into markup equation.
Please share who so we can block.
There was a seller here who sold a desirable mint-sealed box of coins and expressly stated so in his listing. The buyer opened it, claimed a coin or 2 was damaged and eBay forced the seller to accept a return. One of many reasons why I rarely sell there.
terrible idea to sell unproved coins. they could have been all gem - replaced with fully circulated - and returned.
They were at the time current issue platinum so prolly not likely that there'd be circulated specimens.
@TwoKopeiki said:
You have a strong case, in my opinion. Just tell eBay that after it was broken out of its slab, there's no way to guarantee it's the same coin plus the value has been diminished by the act.
@thevolcanogod said:
Buyer returns have gotten ridiculous.
Direct result of eBay trying to beat Amazon with “free” returns on the seller’s dime.
Thinking of going no returns on everything. I have a very generous, no questions asked return policy but it’s being abused heavily. People winning auctions with nuclear bids then returning 90% of the coins etc.
If you are getting 90% returns, YOU are doing something wrong. I call BS on this.
I'm not getting 90% returns. I said a bidder won a bunch of auctions with nuclear bids then returned 90% of the ones he/she won. This particular one just said they didn't want them and returned them - kept the one he got a good deal on. I had another one very similar only they won maybe 8 auctions and returned them all saying they were cleaned. They weren't. Not even close. My return rate is fairly low - percent wise - but the number of cases that I would call abusive of the mechanism has gotten much higher. Here's an example. Buyer returned this one because they said that it must have been damaged in the mail because there was a ding on the cheek that wasn't in the pictures. I know my pics aren't perfect but should be easy to see this.
You need to speak to someone else like a supervisor. Film the package being opened and tell them the item was damaged. or better yet that it isn't the same item. EBay should make it right. If not, how badly do you need eBay? If you don't, I would un-associate all of my bank accounts and credit cards from PayPal/eBay and then allow eBay/PayPal to issue the reimbursement from their end if they force it. I wouldn't reimburse them a nickel, but I would send them a letter and evidence by certified mail disputing the charges. At best, I would offer to "settle" the disputed debt for the value once recertified after my grading fees and expenses had been deducted.
@ARCO said:
Depends on the purchase price, but if it were high enough, I would go into my bank on Monday morning, tell them there was fraud and change my account number. Then, when Ebay forces the return and uses paypal to extract the money, you can simply offer them the middle finger...and the buyer too.
At some point you gotta make a stand.
I don't think that PP can access your bank account anymore without your approval.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
I had a buyer buy a coin from me and had it graded and it came back Cleaned. He wanted me to pay for the certification and refund the money on the coin. I did.
I told my favorite (buying) client what I did and thought I was nuts. We just laughed.
I did tell the original buyer whom I reimbursed that I could not do that again in the future. He could still return a coin, but I could not pay for his certification.
Just trying to do the right thing.
Being nice is a great way to be taken advantage of in this hobby. Unless you made a contrary representation as to the grade or value of the coin, I would have declined the return. If I did accept a return, I would not have paid his grading fees.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
I had a buyer buy a coin from me and had it graded and it came back Cleaned. He wanted me to pay for the certification and refund the money on the coin. I did.
I told my favorite (buying) client what I did and thought I was nuts. We just laughed.
I did tell the original buyer whom I reimbursed that I could not do that again in the future. He could still return a coin, but I could not pay for his certification.
Just trying to do the right thing.
I would only have done this if I had missed the cleaning myself and has listed the coin without describing the cleaning. Was that the case in this situation?
@thevolcanogod said:
Buyer returns have gotten ridiculous.
Direct result of eBay trying to beat Amazon with “free” returns on the seller’s dime.
Thinking of going no returns on everything. I have a very generous, no questions asked return policy but it’s being abused heavily. People winning auctions with nuclear bids then returning 90% of the coins etc.
<<< Direct result of eBay trying to beat Amazon with “free” returns on the seller’s dime. >>>
Amazon is still much worse than Ebay on the subject of ridiculous returns, and buyers looking to scam sellers.
@thevolcanogod said:
Buyer returns have gotten ridiculous.
Direct result of eBay trying to beat Amazon with “free” returns on the seller’s dime.
Thinking of going no returns on everything. I have a very generous, no questions asked return policy but it’s being abused heavily. People winning auctions with nuclear bids then returning 90% of the coins etc.
If you are getting 90% returns, YOU are doing something wrong. I call BS on this.
Not what he said. The arbitrary nuclear bidding buyer is returning 90% of their purchases across all sellers, and doing so with impunity. I don't doubt such buyers exist.
I STRONGLY believe NO such buyers exist. Unless it's 100% (1 bid/1 return). eBay will not allow massive returns from buyers. They suspend or ban people for a much lower rate of returns:
once a coin is cracked, it is raw. you did not sell a raw coin.
Hopefully you can persuade eBay of this fact
Part of the listing process includes specifying the "official" grade, the ebay-approved TPG and pictures of the item. It doesn't matter whether the coin is the same coin or not, the item is not the same as it was when it shipped. Probable fraud.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@thevolcanogod said:
Buyer returns have gotten ridiculous.
Direct result of eBay trying to beat Amazon with “free” returns on the seller’s dime.
Thinking of going no returns on everything. I have a very generous, no questions asked return policy but it’s being abused heavily. People winning auctions with nuclear bids then returning 90% of the coins etc.
If you are getting 90% returns, YOU are doing something wrong. I call BS on this.
Not what he said. The arbitrary nuclear bidding buyer is returning 90% of their purchases across all sellers, and doing so with impunity. I don't doubt such buyers exist.
I STRONGLY believe NO such buyers exist. Unless it's 100% (1 bid/1 return). eBay will not allow massive returns from buyers. They suspend or ban people for a much lower rate of returns:
It was 10 auction wins (starting at .99) from 1 buyer and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
Not what he said. The arbitrary nuclear bidding buyer is returning 90% of their purchases across all sellers, and doing so with impunity. I don't doubt such buyers exist.
I STRONGLY believe NO such buyers exist. Unless it's 100% (1 bid/1 return). eBay will not allow massive returns from buyers. They suspend or ban people for a much lower rate of returns:
It was 10 auction wins (starting at .99) from 1 buyer and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
@mach1ne said:
I had a similar situation where the buyer disagreed with the grade so opened a SNAD against me! Free return shipping for him..
I had a buyer do that on a NGC CAC coin too. EBay tried to charge me the shipping charges and to this day I refuse to pay. The eBay account was suspended - no worries, I just created another one for buying!
Not what he said. The arbitrary nuclear bidding buyer is returning 90% of their purchases across all sellers, and doing so with impunity. I don't doubt such buyers exist.
I STRONGLY believe NO such buyers exist. Unless it's 100% (1 bid/1 return). eBay will not allow massive returns from buyers. They suspend or ban people for a much lower rate of returns:
It was 10 auction wins (starting at .99) from 1 buyer and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
And did he/she not get banned as a result?
From eBay? Probably not. From bidding on my auctions? Absolutely. I frankly didn’t say a word to them - just approved everything. In the end the result would have been the same but maybe some added negative feedback to boot.
Not what he said. The arbitrary nuclear bidding buyer is returning 90% of their purchases across all sellers, and doing so with impunity. I don't doubt such buyers exist.
I STRONGLY believe NO such buyers exist. Unless it's 100% (1 bid/1 return). eBay will not allow massive returns from buyers. They suspend or ban people for a much lower rate of returns:
It was 10 auction wins (starting at .99) from 1 buyer and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
And did he/she not get banned as a result?
From eBay? Probably not. From bidding on my auctions? Absolutely. I frankly didn’t say a word to them - just approved everything. In the end the result would have been the same but maybe some added negative feedback to boot.
Generally, eBay will suspend someone if they have more than 3 returns in a short period of time or more than a 20-25% return rate.
@KeithMS70 said:
I would contact eBay and explain what’s going on. There’s no way this guy should be able to return that coin.
LOL! I've had this exact thing happen to me twice, and took negs to boot, and feepay says just to suck it up as it's the "cost of doing business."
If you read the feepay forums you'll read absolutely shocking stuff that feepay shoves down sellers' throats. One guy that sells non-returnable medical devices was forced to take a return after the buyer said they tried the instrument and didn't like it so they filed a SNAD. feepay told the seller that all buyers get to test out whatever they buy. Since it's illegal to resell used medical devices the seller had to eat it. People "rent" high end clothing from sellers in droves. Getting something back in place of what was sent is not uncommon, and feepay will force a refund. Two or three years ago a well established high end watch seller got ripped off twice in two months getting back a rock in place of a Rolex. If I remember correctly, his loss was in the $15k to $20k range.
The only thing feepay cares about, and what they track, is if it costs them $. Sellers are essentially on their own.
@Tookybandit said:
What a tool bag!
eBay says once I receive the package, I have two days to issue a refund. I planned to video tape opening the package to prove the item was damaged/altered, but I’ll probably still be at FUN and miss the two day window. I’ll call eBay tomorrow and state my case.
Has anyone been in a similar situation and how did it go for you?
So EBay made the decision in favor of the buyer yet? Unbelievable.
Not what he said. The arbitrary nuclear bidding buyer is returning 90% of their purchases across all sellers, and doing so with impunity. I don't doubt such buyers exist.
I STRONGLY believe NO such buyers exist. Unless it's 100% (1 bid/1 return). eBay will not allow massive returns from buyers. They suspend or ban people for a much lower rate of returns:
It was 10 auction wins (starting at .99) from 1 buyer and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
And did he/she not get banned as a result?
From eBay? Probably not. From bidding on my auctions? Absolutely. I frankly didn’t say a word to them - just approved everything. In the end the result would have been the same but maybe some added negative feedback to boot.
Generally, eBay will suspend someone if they have more than 3 returns in a short period of time or more than a 20-25% return rate.
Based on what? How do you know if such a policy is actually enforced?
er and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
And did he/she not get banned as a result?
From eBay? Probably not. From bidding on my auctions? Absolutely. I frankly didn’t say a word to them - just approved everything. In the end the result would have been the same but maybe some added negative feedback to boot.
Generally, eBay will suspend someone if they have more than 3 returns in a short period of time or more than a 20-25% return rate.
Based on what? How do you know if such a policy is actually enforced?
Go to the eBay boards or just google it. There are all kinds of people complaining about getting suspended and the reasons eBay told them they were suspended.
You can find the same thing for Amazon, by the way.
From eBay? Probably not. From bidding on my auctions? Absolutely. I frankly didn’t say a word to them - just approved everything. In the end the result would have been the same but maybe some added negative feedback to boot.
Generally, eBay will suspend someone if they have more than 3 returns in a short period of time or more than a 20-25% return rate.
Based on what? How do you know if such a policy is actually enforced?
Here's the very flexible policy. As I say, if you want to see some of the reasons people got suspended, google it and you'll find all kinds of people complaining about getting suspended
@Coinstartled said:
At least post the buyer handle so we can add him to the "list".
Can't do that until the transaction has completed and then only by PM.
Why?
I figure it's in my best interest to wait until I go through the eBay process first. Since I qualify for Top Rated Seller again, it's probably not the smartest move to out buyer's user names publicly. PM seems like a better way to go ....no doubt there's probably eBay policies in place against sharing user names. If not, give them a couple days to add that rule, haha
I am glad your laughing.
I don’t even care about this thread no more!
the returns on e bay are starting to get out of control. I had one return from 1999 to 2017, I had 4 in 2018 and every single buyer lied to get their money back, actually 3 lied, one told the truth and said they could no longer afford the purchase because something come up. i'm at the point to thinking about not selling anymore
I don't know if I would call it out of control yet, but I've had 3 returns that I can remember since 2011 and had 2 in the last month. One was a PCGS graded coin buyer returned NAD.
If the coin is removed from the holder then the return is voided. You don’t have to submit the images right away so wait to open until in video. You can prove that the item is not the same very easily. Only way to lose this is if it was opened by same grading company and they state that the coin is not the one originally graded.
@Downtown1974 said:
No incentive for sellers on eBay anymore. I guess that’s the price you pay for a broader audience.
Yes But...law of diminishing returns. Unless coins, bullion etc. are insignificant relative to rest on bay,
perhaps the shady practices plaguing our community warrant relevant C&B specific rules?
I’d put no returns on graded coins for now on if eBay ends up screwing you. Those rotten s.o.b.’s at eBay have screwed me over a few times too pal. It’s a hard pill to swallow for sure.
A guy in coin club had a coin returned from eBay sale couple yr ago which was very nice with the return address of an attorney office with “return” marked on his enclosed original package (opened) with no message from the buyer advising the return whatsoever. He did not refund it and was never contacted. It later sold for a nice profit after being relisted. Go figure.
@Alltheabove76 said:
Do sellers ever win a SNAD claim? Ever?
All the time. Unless I know I'm wrong, I fight every one of them, and have a pretty good track record of convincing eBay that I know more about the item and the buyer's claim is invalid based on the combined photos and description. It's funny, though, because for the rare instance that I really did screw up (for example, a few months ago I missed some ex-mount damage--no malice, it was just an oversight on my part), buyers often just email me and we don't even go through the official returns process. It's when they're trying to be sneaky that they just open a case out of the blue.
Is there an outcome to this? As far as can tell from the OP's posts, he was going to state his case to eBay, but there hasn't been an update since then.
@Davideo said:
Is there an outcome to this? As far as can tell from the OP's posts, he was going to state his case to eBay, but there hasn't been an update since then.
I don't expect much info till after FUN and maybe time to make his case.
Comments
Since you’re the seller, it likely will not turn out to your satisfaction. So get your money’s worth and tell the buyer to go jump in the river — or whatever act suits your fancy.
Depends on the purchase price, but if it were high enough, I would go into my bank on Monday morning, tell them there was fraud and change my account number. Then, when Ebay forces the return and uses paypal to extract the money, you can simply offer them the middle finger...and the buyer too.
At some point you gotta make a stand.
They were at the time current issue platinum so prolly not likely that there'd be circulated specimens.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
coin switched
If true, do you then take it up with the CGC?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I'm not getting 90% returns. I said a bidder won a bunch of auctions with nuclear bids then returned 90% of the ones he/she won. This particular one just said they didn't want them and returned them - kept the one he got a good deal on. I had another one very similar only they won maybe 8 auctions and returned them all saying they were cleaned. They weren't. Not even close. My return rate is fairly low - percent wise - but the number of cases that I would call abusive of the mechanism has gotten much higher. Here's an example. Buyer returned this one because they said that it must have been damaged in the mail because there was a ding on the cheek that wasn't in the pictures.
I know my pics aren't perfect but should be easy to see this.
You need to speak to someone else like a supervisor. Film the package being opened and tell them the item was damaged. or better yet that it isn't the same item. EBay should make it right. If not, how badly do you need eBay? If you don't, I would un-associate all of my bank accounts and credit cards from PayPal/eBay and then allow eBay/PayPal to issue the reimbursement from their end if they force it. I wouldn't reimburse them a nickel, but I would send them a letter and evidence by certified mail disputing the charges. At best, I would offer to "settle" the disputed debt for the value once recertified after my grading fees and expenses had been deducted.
I don't think that PP can access your bank account anymore without your approval.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Being nice is a great way to be taken advantage of in this hobby. Unless you made a contrary representation as to the grade or value of the coin, I would have declined the return. If I did accept a return, I would not have paid his grading fees.
No surprises here. The world is short on saints.
Lol indeed. He could not tell the grade was "way off" by examining it in the slab?
I would only have done this if I had missed the cleaning myself and has listed the coin without describing the cleaning. Was that the case in this situation?
once a coin is cracked, it is raw. you did not sell a raw coin.
Hopefully you can persuade eBay of this fact
There’s something fishy going on. I bet he switched the coin.
'Appears that type of 'buyer' would likely return a cull, ungradeable coin with the busted MS67 slab he claimed to purchase.
<<< Direct result of eBay trying to beat Amazon with “free” returns on the seller’s dime. >>>
Amazon is still much worse than Ebay on the subject of ridiculous returns, and buyers looking to scam sellers.
I STRONGLY believe NO such buyers exist. Unless it's 100% (1 bid/1 return). eBay will not allow massive returns from buyers. They suspend or ban people for a much lower rate of returns:
I had a similar situation where the buyer disagreed with the grade so opened a SNAD against me! Free return shipping for him..
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
once a coin is cracked, it is raw. you did not sell a raw coin.
Hopefully you can persuade eBay of this fact
Part of the listing process includes specifying the "official" grade, the ebay-approved TPG and pictures of the item. It doesn't matter whether the coin is the same coin or not, the item is not the same as it was when it shipped. Probable fraud.
I knew it would happen.
It was 10 auction wins (starting at .99) from 1 buyer and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
I would contact eBay and explain what’s going on. There’s no way this guy should be able to return that coin.
Man that sucks. I'll bet $1 that it isn't the same coin you sent.
Collector, occasional seller
And did he/she not get banned as a result?
I had a buyer do that on a NGC CAC coin too. EBay tried to charge me the shipping charges and to this day I refuse to pay. The eBay account was suspended - no worries, I just created another one for buying!
From eBay? Probably not. From bidding on my auctions? Absolutely. I frankly didn’t say a word to them - just approved everything. In the end the result would have been the same but maybe some added negative feedback to boot.
Generally, eBay will suspend someone if they have more than 3 returns in a short period of time or more than a 20-25% return rate.
LOL! I've had this exact thing happen to me twice, and took negs to boot, and feepay says just to suck it up as it's the "cost of doing business."
If you read the feepay forums you'll read absolutely shocking stuff that feepay shoves down sellers' throats. One guy that sells non-returnable medical devices was forced to take a return after the buyer said they tried the instrument and didn't like it so they filed a SNAD. feepay told the seller that all buyers get to test out whatever they buy. Since it's illegal to resell used medical devices the seller had to eat it. People "rent" high end clothing from sellers in droves. Getting something back in place of what was sent is not uncommon, and feepay will force a refund. Two or three years ago a well established high end watch seller got ripped off twice in two months getting back a rock in place of a Rolex. If I remember correctly, his loss was in the $15k to $20k range.
The only thing feepay cares about, and what they track, is if it costs them $. Sellers are essentially on their own.
So EBay made the decision in favor of the buyer yet? Unbelievable.
Based on what? How do you know if such a policy is actually enforced?
er and 8 from the other. Don’t care to post proof.
Go to the eBay boards or just google it. There are all kinds of people complaining about getting suspended and the reasons eBay told them they were suspended.
You can find the same thing for Amazon, by the way.
Here's the very flexible policy. As I say, if you want to see some of the reasons people got suspended, google it and you'll find all kinds of people complaining about getting suspended
https://ebay.com/help/policies/rules-policies-buyers/buying-practices-policy?id=4374
Here's an example:
https://reddit.com/r/Ebay/comments/8rdbga/ebay_account_permanently_suspended/
not nice
BHNC #203
the returns on e bay are starting to get out of control. I had one return from 1999 to 2017, I had 4 in 2018 and every single buyer lied to get their money back, actually 3 lied, one told the truth and said they could no longer afford the purchase because something come up. i'm at the point to thinking about not selling anymore
I don't know if I would call it out of control yet, but I've had 3 returns that I can remember since 2011 and had 2 in the last month. One was a PCGS graded coin buyer returned NAD.
My Ebay Store
If the coin is removed from the holder then the return is voided. You don’t have to submit the images right away so wait to open until in video. You can prove that the item is not the same very easily. Only way to lose this is if it was opened by same grading company and they state that the coin is not the one originally graded.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I always thought buying raw on eBay, submitting and getting genuine, not the grade you wanted then returned was bad enough.
No incentive for sellers on eBay anymore. I guess that’s the price you pay for a broader audience.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
Yes But...law of diminishing returns. Unless coins, bullion etc. are insignificant relative to rest on bay,
perhaps the shady practices plaguing our community warrant relevant C&B specific rules?
Just my thoughts any others?
J
I’d put no returns on graded coins for now on if eBay ends up screwing you. Those rotten s.o.b.’s at eBay have screwed me over a few times too pal. It’s a hard pill to swallow for sure.
He dropped it and dinged the edge you mean.
You can put no returns forever, and SNAD trumps your No return statement.
Exactly. There is no such thing as "no returns" or even charging return shipping.
Do sellers ever win a SNAD claim? Ever?
My Early Large Cents
A guy in coin club had a coin returned from eBay sale couple yr ago which was very nice with the return address of an attorney office with “return” marked on his enclosed original package (opened) with no message from the buyer advising the return whatsoever. He did not refund it and was never contacted. It later sold for a nice profit after being relisted. Go figure.
All the time. Unless I know I'm wrong, I fight every one of them, and have a pretty good track record of convincing eBay that I know more about the item and the buyer's claim is invalid based on the combined photos and description. It's funny, though, because for the rare instance that I really did screw up (for example, a few months ago I missed some ex-mount damage--no malice, it was just an oversight on my part), buyers often just email me and we don't even go through the official returns process. It's when they're trying to be sneaky that they just open a case out of the blue.
I do not get returns.
I sell items that people do not want to return.
How hard is that?
You're my hero.
Is there an outcome to this? As far as can tell from the OP's posts, he was going to state his case to eBay, but there hasn't been an update since then.
I don't expect much info till after FUN and maybe time to make his case.