The unattributed response in the OP is very good. The fact is, coins have opinions, not grades. Without standards (real standards, documented, measurable, repeatable), no coin has a grade. And as long as something as nebulous and ridiculous as 'eye appeal' is considered, even opinions cannot really be considered. Cheers, RickO
@Baley said:
Funny how some coin collectors think evaluating Eye Appeal is "ridiculous", when, for many, it's by far the most important Quality of a coin.
Actually, the assessment of a coin's eye-appeal causes the most subjectivity in grading today. That's why a brilliant white, baggy 63 Morgan can suddenly become an MS-65+ with the proper toning!
To me, that's not in the least bit "funny" at all! Try and teach this and net grading foolishness to beginning grading students so they learn what goes on in the "real world" outside of a classroom. I don't even attempt to teach them how to VALUE a coin. I leave that up to the professionals.
Some coin collectors (and other people, too) also think "What goes on in the Real World" is more important and relevant than endless classroom sophistry.
@Baley said: "Some coin collectors (and other people, too) also think "What goes on in the Real World" is more important and relevant than endless classroom sophistry."
You are absolutely correct!
Unfortunately, most new collectors do not come to the hobby with your extensive knowledge. It is also extremely unfortunate (but lucky for coin dealers and TPGS's) that most are not exposed to any endless classroom sophistry EITHER!.
Ideally, they must start with the basics. A stupid thing as "Net Grading" is very confusing while simple "Details" grading is quickly absorbed using the obsolete "Ivory Tower" Technical Grading System that has nothing to do with a coin's value. Once they learn what loss of luster and details looks like from each of its various causes, they can make their own personal standard as to when a coin drops from the MS ranges.
The other important thing to teach a beginner is what each of a coin's MS attributes are and how each affects a coin's grade from 60 to 70. Eventually, they can combine them into one grade.
This is one of only two examples of the Chain AMERI. cent that Bill Noyes describes as having choice surfaces. He grades this piece AU55 behind a Specimen coin that he grades MS62.
MS60: Del Bland EAC
Del Bland grades this piece MS60 and second finest known behind the same Specimen coin that he calls MS61.
MS62: Heritage EAC
It is our opinion that this piece, with its exceptional surfaces and traces of mint red, deserves a higher EAC grade. [...] Our EAC grade is MS62.
This topic got complicated with all the numismatic terms for greenhorns such as myself. Before we go on with grading, I would like to summarize some thoughts in comparison to human beings.
Starting the day a baby was born, not everyone would be equal. Some would have genetic abnormality and or defects.
1855-C gold dollar can't exist in much of anything beyond MS-62, because the coin was made very poorly. It was "struck in MS-62."
Everyone would sustain some sort of injuries as they grow older. But some damages are more noticeable than others depending on the caretakers and environment.
@Cameonut said:
I think coins have a certain level of preservation.
Back to the topic of grading a coin in comparison to a human being. I will try to set the value of coin in comparison of purpose of life to the minimum.
Do we judge and grade people by their appearances? Eyes appealing coins are the same as beautiful people. This group of exotic breeds will always have the special treatments toward to their advantage. However beauty standard had always changed throughout every generation.
How about certification? Is straight A's student from a city college less intelligent than a straight A's student of an Ivy League? Of course not. But in term of paycheck and value of coin in which we are not here to discuss, general public tend to associate with it such as one's intelligence and condition of a coin.
Please excuse me as I am getting busy at work at this moment. I will continue with more inputs once my hands are free.
This is one of only two examples of the Chain AMERI. cent that Bill Noyes describes as having choice surfaces. He grades this piece AU55 behind a Specimen coin that he grades MS62.
MS60: Del Bland EAC
Del Bland grades this piece MS60 and second finest known behind the same Specimen coin that he calls MS61.
MS62: Heritage EAC
It is our opinion that this piece, with its exceptional surfaces and traces of mint red, deserves a higher EAC grade. [...] Our EAC grade is MS62.
Thanks. However, while this is not surprising to me it is the best example I've ever heard of. You see, the EAC endorsed grading guide acknowledges that EAC grading is mostly different than TPGS grading. That's probably why some auctions include both. Additionally, the EAC guide admits that net grading is very subjective and that even knowledgeable EAC graders often disagree!
It is a wonderful book that I recommend all should read whether you believe the "Net Grading System" is a stupid folly - allowing for no possible precision created by (?) as I do, or if it is the best grading system in the world.
PS Perhaps some of us should stick to their day job.
Comments
Then in the interest of accuracy, henceforth we should avoid the term "Finest known" and make it "Finest Known Yet."
The unattributed response in the OP is very good. The fact is, coins have opinions, not grades. Without standards (real standards, documented, measurable, repeatable), no coin has a grade. And as long as something as nebulous and ridiculous as 'eye appeal' is considered, even opinions cannot really be considered. Cheers, RickO
Funny how some coin collectors think evaluating Eye Appeal is "ridiculous", when, for many, it's by far the most important Quality of a coin.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Actually, the assessment of a coin's eye-appeal causes the most subjectivity in grading today. That's why a brilliant white, baggy 63 Morgan can suddenly become an MS-65+ with the proper toning!
To me, that's not in the least bit "funny" at all! Try and teach this and net grading foolishness to beginning grading students so they learn what goes on in the "real world" outside of a classroom. I don't even attempt to teach them how to VALUE a coin. I leave that up to the professionals.
Some coin collectors (and other people, too) also think "What goes on in the Real World" is more important and relevant than endless classroom sophistry.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said: "Some coin collectors (and other people, too) also think "What goes on in the Real World" is more important and relevant than endless classroom sophistry."
You are absolutely correct!
Unfortunately, most new collectors do not come to the hobby with your extensive knowledge. It is also extremely unfortunate (but lucky for coin dealers and TPGS's) that most are not exposed to any endless classroom sophistry EITHER!.
Ideally, they must start with the basics. A stupid thing as "Net Grading" is very confusing while simple "Details" grading is quickly absorbed using the obsolete "Ivory Tower" Technical Grading System that has nothing to do with a coin's value. Once they learn what loss of luster and details looks like from each of its various causes, they can make their own personal standard as to when a coin drops from the MS ranges.
The other important thing to teach a beginner is what each of a coin's MS attributes are and how each affects a coin's grade from 60 to 70. Eventually, they can combine them into one grade.
@Insider2 Prepare to have your mind blown
Check this out. Four grades in a single auction description!
https://coins.ha.com/itm/large-cents/1793-1c-chain-ameri-s-1-b-1-r4-ms64-brown-pcgs-secure-cac/a/1291-4312.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
MS64+BN: PCGS, CAC
AU55: Bill Noyes EAC
MS60: Del Bland EAC
MS62: Heritage EAC
This topic got complicated with all the numismatic terms for greenhorns such as myself. Before we go on with grading, I would like to summarize some thoughts in comparison to human beings.
Starting the day a baby was born, not everyone would be equal. Some would have genetic abnormality and or defects.
Same as > @BillJones said:
Everyone would sustain some sort of injuries as they grow older. But some damages are more noticeable than others depending on the caretakers and environment.
Back to the topic of grading a coin in comparison to a human being. I will try to set the value of coin in comparison of purpose of life to the minimum.
Do we judge and grade people by their appearances? Eyes appealing coins are the same as beautiful people. This group of exotic breeds will always have the special treatments toward to their advantage. However beauty standard had always changed throughout every generation.
How about certification? Is straight A's student from a city college less intelligent than a straight A's student of an Ivy League? Of course not. But in term of paycheck and value of coin in which we are not here to discuss, general public tend to associate with it such as one's intelligence and condition of a coin.
Please excuse me as I am getting busy at work at this moment. I will continue with more inputs once my hands are free.
Thanks. However, while this is not surprising to me it is the best example I've ever heard of. You see, the EAC endorsed grading guide acknowledges that EAC grading is mostly different than TPGS grading. That's probably why some auctions include both. Additionally, the EAC guide admits that net grading is very subjective and that even knowledgeable EAC graders often disagree!
It is a wonderful book that I recommend all should read whether you believe the "Net Grading System" is a stupid folly - allowing for no possible precision created by (?) as I do, or if it is the best grading system in the world.
PS Perhaps some of us should stick to their day job.