I had a card come back from PSA rejected because of size. It was pulled right from a rack pack from an unopened case from the BBCE. So obviously its possible to pull cards right from a pack that could be mistaken as altered or trimmed.
@softparade said:
I had a card come back from PSA rejected because of size. It was pulled right from a rack pack from an unopened case from the BBCE. So obviously its possible to pull cards right from a pack that could be mistaken as altered or trimmed.
Undersized cards are common and well known. That’s why PSA distinguishes between Min Size Requirement and Evidence of Trimming.
@softparade said:
I had a card come back from PSA rejected because of size. It was pulled right from a rack pack from an unopened case from the BBCE. So obviously its possible to pull cards right from a pack that could be mistaken as altered or trimmed.
Undersized cards are common and well known. That’s why PSA distinguishes between Min Size Requirement and Evidence of Trimming.
Of course my friend, but we are going to get people looking at undersized as targets of possible fraud with all this going on.
@softparade said:
I had a card come back from PSA rejected because of size. It was pulled right from a rack pack from an unopened case from the BBCE. So obviously its possible to pull cards right from a pack that could be mistaken as altered or trimmed.
I have had this happen numerous times with PSA. SGC did much worse though, SGC 84 cracked old flip to a SGC altered trimmed with new grading flip. LOL
Looks like this guy might have been altering baseball cards too with an early Derek Jeter auto that went from damaged to straight 9.5's across the board.
Pretty grim deal for most modern issues where the cuts out of the package are laser-precise to begin with. The serial numbered aspect helps if you can discover previous sales history images of the same card. Otherwise just know your card's typical dimensions and appearance. Vintage as well can be prone to fudging but the typical cut of a vintage card is quite different under magnification vs. a lasered or otherwise "fresh cut."
Very similar to the micro-trimming comics controversy in 2005, though that largely affected comics already approaching very high grades. Comics are a different animal than cards, and your average comic in VF and below will have an accumulation of defects that micro-trimming won't improve upon.
@PaulMaul said:
There was a very similar huge scandal in 2005 with CGC having certified as unrestored a host of micro-trimmed comics. A high profile and respected dealer was implicated and it was very ugly.
Ahhhhhhh, yes. Those wonderful Jason Ewert daze....
Like your avatar, comicman. Your copy or you just like that ish? If it's your copy you're collecting at a level beyond me! Precode horror is mostly my thing, for comics.
@originalisbest said:
Like your avatar, comicman. Your copy or you just like that ish? If it's your copy you're collecting at a level beyond me! Precode horror is mostly my thing, for comics.
OB...yep, it's one of mine. Third copy. I've upgrade since my first copy in 2002, not counting my beater childhood copy. So CGC wise i've gone 3.5, 6.0, 9.2 (but it was pressed by Matt )
Believe it or not, I bought the 9.2 raw from some seller at the SDCC back in 2010. He sold it to me as a strict VF 8.0 and I paid roughly a 2010 Fine price for it. So overall, i'm quite pleased
Precode horror rocks!!!! Love me some EC love. My Golden Age focus has ramped up a lot in the last 4 years or so.
@Comicman From 1994 to 1998 I was obsessed with Timely Caps and All Winners. It was hilarious, I was a graduate student at the time, earning less than $14000 a year, but I was paying $100 a month rent to sleep in a pantry and buying VF Timely Caps whenever I scraped up the money (only $500 or so at the time). I also had the D copy of All Winners 13 which would have been a 9.6. Unfortunately I sold all of them in 1998 to focus on more nostalgic books. If only I had waited two more years
@PaulMaul said: @Comicman From 1994 to 1998 I was obsessed with Timely Caps and All Winners. It was hilarious, I was a graduate student at the time, earning less than $14000 a year, but I was paying $100 a month rent to sleep in a pantry and buying VF Timely Caps whenever I scraped up the money (only $500 or so at the time). I also had the D copy of All Winners 13 which would have been a 9.6. Unfortunately I sold all of them in 1998 to focus on more nostalgic books. If only I had waited two more years
LOL...wow!!! However, that story is an instant classic for me Pantry sleeping for high grade GA Caps, seems quite reasonable to me I know, you just missed that gold mine in the years ahead. I remember finding GA Timelys for real good $$$ in the early to mid 1990's even though I always was skeptical that they were restored
@Comicman said:
LOL...wow!!! However, that story is an instant classic for me Pantry sleeping for high grade GA Caps, seems quite reasonable to me I know, you just missed that gold mine in the years ahead. I remember finding GA Timelys for real good $$$ in the early to mid 1990's even though I always was skeptical that they were restored
The firs GA Cap I bought in 1992 was restored. I was clueless at the time. The seller was Gerry Ross. I was clueless about that too, lol. Not subtle, very obvious once I gained a clue. Let’s face it, that’s one of the big reasons we got CGC.
@originalisbest said:
Like your avatar, comicman. Your copy or you just like that ish? If it's your copy you're collecting at a level beyond me! Precode horror is mostly my thing, for comics.
OB...yep, it's one of mine. Third copy. I've upgrade since my first copy in 2002, not counting my beater childhood copy. So CGC wise i've gone 3.5, 6.0, 9.2 (but it was pressed by Matt )
Believe it or not, I bought the 9.2 raw from some seller at the SDCC back in 2010. He sold it to me as a strict VF 8.0 and I paid roughly a 2010 Fine price for it. So overall, i'm quite pleased
Precode horror rocks!!!! Love me some EC love. My Golden Age focus has ramped up a lot in the last 4 years or so.
You rock! What a great book. If I ever get a copy myself I'd like to make it a pleasing G or G/VG. For ECs, I love all the usual suspects -- Crime, Sci-Fi, SHOCK and especially horror. My Crypt run is complete -- not so Vault and Haunt. Plus a lot of other PCH publishers with some smattering of great covers (most all are great to me, though!)
@PaulMaul said: @Comicman From 1994 to 1998 I was obsessed with Timely Caps and All Winners. It was hilarious, I was a graduate student at the time, earning less than $14000 a year, but I was paying $100 a month rent to sleep in a pantry and buying VF Timely Caps whenever I scraped up the money (only $500 or so at the time). I also had the D copy of All Winners 13 which would have been a 9.6. Unfortunately I sold all of them in 1998 to focus on more nostalgic books. If only I had waited two more years
Agh! Well, you did (and still do) have very good taste. I totally might have gone for that pantry idea in my college days too!
@Comicman said:
LOL...wow!!! However, that story is an instant classic for me Pantry sleeping for high grade GA Caps, seems quite reasonable to me I know, you just missed that gold mine in the years ahead. I remember finding GA Timelys for real good $$$ in the early to mid 1990's even though I always was skeptical that they were restored
The firs GA Cap I bought in 1992 was restored. I was clueless at the time. The seller was Gerry Ross. I was clueless about that too, lol. Not subtle, very obvious once I gained a clue. Let’s face it, that’s one of the big reasons we got CGC.
Sorry for the undisclosed resto lesson courtesy of Mr. Ross -- I was never victimized by him, only because I got the lowdown about his tendencies before I ever saw something of his for sale. Like you, I learned early on how to spot the obvious resto stuff -- subtle things might still sneak by. Agreed, CGC is great if for no other reason than a resto check for big books (not that I own a ton of "big books.")
Is there any chance PSA will comment on the situation? I have been following the blowout threads as well and they have clearly exposed to sellers.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@dfr52 said:
Is there any chance PSA will comment on the situation? I have been following the blowout threads as well and they have clearly exposed to sellers.
Someone would have to contact them and present the evidence. They will do nothing based on public forum gumshoeing
As a Cal alum, I’m curious if he has/had an affiliation with the university. How does one post an announcement to that website for the Mechanical Engineering department? I sure hope he wasn’t one of ours.
@lahmejoon said:
As a Cal alum, I’m curious if he has/had an affiliation with the university. How does one post an announcement to that website for the Mechanical Engineering department? I sure hope he wasn’t one of ours.
According to the blowout forum, a Mr. Deer is a Cal engineering grad.....and he posted the ad to get help with 1/64 inch precise cuts...and this Deer is linked to some trimmed cards. This is not BNC; but Deer himself appears to be a fraudster. They posted some bio info on Deer on the blowout thread.
@lahmejoon said:
As a Cal alum, I’m curious if he has/had an affiliation with the university. How does one post an announcement to that website for the Mechanical Engineering department? I sure hope he wasn’t one of ours.
I am not a fan of this type of activity. I am also happy to see it exposed.
That said, what is his crime? Can they actually get him for anything?
If he simply cuts the cards for a fee, and returns the cards to the customer, is there a crime committed? I ask for these three reasons.
1) There are legitimate hand cut cards that can be made to look great. I’ve done it, I’m pretty good at it, too. And then submitted for numeric grades. (Happy to share)
2) I believe SGC now offers this service (or will soon) for ‘sheet cut’ and ‘hand cut’ cards that they then will encapsulate. (Table #3 needs an open can of worms, quick!)
3) When I was looking to acquire a 1930 Sanella Babe Ruth, I came across in my research that MANY of the examples you’ll find are trimmed slightly because of their origins in Europe where card ‘trimming’ to improve the look is a more generally acceptable practice for all cards, including and not limited to a Sanella.
I’m just a curious bystander. I would think the client list - as opposed to just the accused trimmer - would be considerably more valuable (and damaging) to the sports card market.
Still, as a collector, I still find PSA to be the best defense against fraud that is available to me. And since I don’t dabble in autographs because of my own bad experiences and the incredible abilities of forgers and fraudsters, my confidence is not quite as shaken. I fully and completely grasp that a few ‘plain’ baseball cards will slip through that maybe shouldn’t be in a holder, either. This only serves to reinforce my hobby beliefs from day one - ‘buy raw and submit’ is the way to feel most secure about what’s in the holder. Know your cards AND their seller. Buy the card, not the holder.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@lahmejoon said:
As a Cal alum, I’m curious if he has/had an affiliation with the university. How does one post an announcement to that website for the Mechanical Engineering department? I sure hope he wasn’t one of ours.
According to the blowout forum, a Mr. Deer is a Cal engineering grad.....and he posted the ad to get help with 1/64 inch precise cuts...and this Deer is linked to some trimmed cards. This is not BNC; but Deer himself appears to be a fraudster. They posted some bio info on Deer on the blowout thread.
80% of that BNC Lebron thread was pointing out the cards that BNC has/had for sale that are/were clearly trimmed. After the members there started digging deeper (like 100 pages in deeper),they came up with other people trimming cards like Deer. then the guy who found him out started another thread in each of the other sports to make everyone aware of him. Recently there's a 3rd trimmer's name involved as well. I know its hard keeping up with all of it but there is plenty of proof of trimming going on. In BNC's case,someone had a deal fall thru and outed him to get that whole thing started.
@lahmejoon said:
As a Cal alum, I’m curious if he has/had an affiliation with the university. How does one post an announcement to that website for the Mechanical Engineering department? I sure hope he wasn’t one of ours.
According to the blowout forum, a Mr. Deer is a Cal engineering grad.....and he posted the ad to get help with 1/64 inch precise cuts...and this Deer is linked to some trimmed cards. This is not BNC; but Deer himself appears to be a fraudster. They posted some bio info on Deer on the blowout thread.
80% of that BNC Lebron thread was pointing out the cards that BNC has/had for sale that are/were clearly trimmed. After the members there started digging deeper (like 100 pages in deeper),they came up with other people trimming cards like Deer. then the guy who found him out started another thread in each of the other sports to make everyone aware of him. Recently there's a 3rd trimmer's name involved as well. I know its hard keeping up with all of it but there is plenty of proof of trimming going on. In BNC's case,someone had a deal fall thru and outed him to get that whole thing started.
Comments
yes of course lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I had a card come back from PSA rejected because of size. It was pulled right from a rack pack from an unopened case from the BBCE. So obviously its possible to pull cards right from a pack that could be mistaken as altered or trimmed.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Undersized cards are common and well known. That’s why PSA distinguishes between Min Size Requirement and Evidence of Trimming.
Of course my friend, but we are going to get people looking at undersized as targets of possible fraud with all this going on.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I have had this happen numerous times with PSA. SGC did much worse though, SGC 84 cracked old flip to a SGC altered trimmed with new grading flip. LOL
Looks like this guy might have been altering baseball cards too with an early Derek Jeter auto that went from damaged to straight 9.5's across the board.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
i trim my hand cuts lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Pretty grim deal for most modern issues where the cuts out of the package are laser-precise to begin with. The serial numbered aspect helps if you can discover previous sales history images of the same card. Otherwise just know your card's typical dimensions and appearance. Vintage as well can be prone to fudging but the typical cut of a vintage card is quite different under magnification vs. a lasered or otherwise "fresh cut."
Very similar to the micro-trimming comics controversy in 2005, though that largely affected comics already approaching very high grades. Comics are a different animal than cards, and your average comic in VF and below will have an accumulation of defects that micro-trimming won't improve upon.
Ahhhhhhh, yes. Those wonderful Jason Ewert daze....
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
Like your avatar, comicman. Your copy or you just like that ish? If it's your copy you're collecting at a level beyond me! Precode horror is mostly my thing, for comics.
OB...yep, it's one of mine. Third copy. I've upgrade since my first copy in 2002, not counting my beater childhood copy. So CGC wise i've gone 3.5, 6.0, 9.2 (but it was pressed by Matt )
Believe it or not, I bought the 9.2 raw from some seller at the SDCC back in 2010. He sold it to me as a strict VF 8.0 and I paid roughly a 2010 Fine price for it. So overall, i'm quite pleased
Precode horror rocks!!!! Love me some EC love. My Golden Age focus has ramped up a lot in the last 4 years or so.
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
@Comicman From 1994 to 1998 I was obsessed with Timely Caps and All Winners. It was hilarious, I was a graduate student at the time, earning less than $14000 a year, but I was paying $100 a month rent to sleep in a pantry and buying VF Timely Caps whenever I scraped up the money (only $500 or so at the time). I also had the D copy of All Winners 13 which would have been a 9.6. Unfortunately I sold all of them in 1998 to focus on more nostalgic books. If only I had waited two more years
LOL...wow!!! However, that story is an instant classic for me
Pantry sleeping for high grade GA Caps, seems quite reasonable to me 
I know, you just missed that gold mine in the years ahead. I remember finding GA Timelys for real good $$$ in the early to mid 1990's even though I always was skeptical that they were restored 
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
The firs GA Cap I bought in 1992 was restored. I was clueless at the time. The seller was Gerry Ross. I was clueless about that too, lol. Not subtle, very obvious once I gained a clue. Let’s face it, that’s one of the big reasons we got CGC.
Gerry Ross...that @#$%sucker!!!!
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
You rock! What a great book. If I ever get a copy myself I'd like to make it a pleasing G or G/VG.
For ECs, I love all the usual suspects -- Crime, Sci-Fi, SHOCK and especially horror. My Crypt run is complete -- not so Vault and Haunt. Plus a lot of other PCH publishers with some smattering of great covers (most all are great to me, though!) 
Agh! Well, you did (and still do) have very good taste. I totally might have gone for that pantry idea in my college days too!
Heh, say no more!
Sorry for the undisclosed resto lesson courtesy of Mr. Ross -- I was never victimized by him, only because I got the lowdown about his tendencies before I ever saw something of his for sale. Like you, I learned early on how to spot the obvious resto stuff -- subtle things might still sneak by. Agreed, CGC is great if for no other reason than a resto check for big books (not that I own a ton of "big books.")
The card companies might need to use the opc piano wire for cutting. Problem solved.
Is there any chance PSA will comment on the situation? I have been following the blowout threads as well and they have clearly exposed to sellers.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Someone would have to contact them and present the evidence. They will do nothing based on public forum gumshoeing
As a Cal alum, I’m curious if he has/had an affiliation with the university. How does one post an announcement to that website for the Mechanical Engineering department? I sure hope he wasn’t one of ours.
According to the blowout forum, a Mr. Deer is a Cal engineering grad.....and he posted the ad to get help with 1/64 inch precise cuts...and this Deer is linked to some trimmed cards. This is not BNC; but Deer himself appears to be a fraudster. They posted some bio info on Deer on the blowout thread.
Shameful
The OP over on BO said he is currently working on some new info for Mr. Deer. he said it should be ready for sometime this week.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Well, it’s Bezerkley...makes complete sense to me
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
wow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I am not a fan of this type of activity. I am also happy to see it exposed.
That said, what is his crime? Can they actually get him for anything?
If he simply cuts the cards for a fee, and returns the cards to the customer, is there a crime committed? I ask for these three reasons.
1) There are legitimate hand cut cards that can be made to look great. I’ve done it, I’m pretty good at it, too. And then submitted for numeric grades. (Happy to share)
2) I believe SGC now offers this service (or will soon) for ‘sheet cut’ and ‘hand cut’ cards that they then will encapsulate. (Table #3 needs an open can of worms, quick!)
3) When I was looking to acquire a 1930 Sanella Babe Ruth, I came across in my research that MANY of the examples you’ll find are trimmed slightly because of their origins in Europe where card ‘trimming’ to improve the look is a more generally acceptable practice for all cards, including and not limited to a Sanella.
I’m just a curious bystander. I would think the client list - as opposed to just the accused trimmer - would be considerably more valuable (and damaging) to the sports card market.
Still, as a collector, I still find PSA to be the best defense against fraud that is available to me. And since I don’t dabble in autographs because of my own bad experiences and the incredible abilities of forgers and fraudsters, my confidence is not quite as shaken. I fully and completely grasp that a few ‘plain’ baseball cards will slip through that maybe shouldn’t be in a holder, either. This only serves to reinforce my hobby beliefs from day one - ‘buy raw and submit’ is the way to feel most secure about what’s in the holder. Know your cards AND their seller. Buy the card, not the holder.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
No, it’s not a crime until you misrepresent the item as unaltered in a sale (fraud).
80% of that BNC Lebron thread was pointing out the cards that BNC has/had for sale that are/were clearly trimmed. After the members there started digging deeper (like 100 pages in deeper),they came up with other people trimming cards like Deer. then the guy who found him out started another thread in each of the other sports to make everyone aware of him. Recently there's a 3rd trimmer's name involved as well. I know its hard keeping up with all of it but there is plenty of proof of trimming going on. In BNC's case,someone had a deal fall thru and outed him to get that whole thing started.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Crazy world
just went over and checked it out. really weird. I read the whole thread when it was breaking, now the OP is banned. strange stuff.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
whats OP mean
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
different thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Original poster. The person who starts a thread.
thank u...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama