Since Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa HR season. How much credit do they deserve for bringing fans back. Does that affect the possibility of making the HOF?
@stwainfan said:
Since Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa HR season. How much credit do they deserve for bringing fans back. Does that affect the possibility of making the HOF?
That does not affect their ability to make it into the HOF. I predict they both don’t make it in.
lol. come on now.OJ was called "juice" because his name was OJ which is what many people call Orange Juice. Oj's numbers stood out because he was a superior athlete much like Jim Brown and Barry Sanders. His numbers were not terrific his first couple of years simply because he had a weak line and a terrible coach who did not know how to use him. Once that changed he became one of the greatest running backs of all time.
I realize many/most people have decided Roger is guilty of using PEDS. He never failed a test and there was never any credible accusations against him.
Comparing his age 30-33 seasons to his age 34-42 seasons is, can we agree, abnormal.
McGwire came from USC which was noted for juicing in the 80's as did Randy Johnson. Steroids originally became prominent in the major sports in the 70's and was generally lightly used in the NFL more to speed up recovery time as well as to gain strength. The Steelers of the 70's were definitely known as big time users of steroids. It was rampant in their locker rooms. They were probably the first well known case of steroid abuse in the NFL.
However, the impact of steroids has its greatest impact in MLB. There is not a major professional sport even remotely close to seeing how much steroids impacts the individual performance. It's night and day when talking about MLB players who use. The first major player in my opinion to be a steroid abuser are Mike Schmidt and Nolan Ryan. There are other guys that played in the same era as these guys that are users as well but it was less prominent. The next generation of players is really where you saw it take off. The difference? They saw what kind of impact on the performance using steroids had. Also, the top players pre-80's were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Free Agency and the modern market started in the 80's and players were now earning multi million dollar contracts. The incentive to cheat became common place.
My primary point with steroids and baseball is that it destroyed the legacy of the game. Statistics were always what made baseball's history so rich. Once the cheaters surfaced and the numbers starting looking ridiculous it nullified the statistical aspect of baseball. Mark McGwire is the perfect example. With steroids his stats compare or are better than Babe Ruth. Without steroids his career totals are almost exactly the same as Dave Kingman. It's simple to figure this out as all you have to do is take his average pre-1992 (pre steroids) and apply those average to the rest of his at bats post 1992 (with steroids).
McGwire's stats without steroids. .244 average, 414 home runs, 1174 rbis .488 slugging %
Kingman's stats without steroids. .236 average, 442 home runs, 1210 rbis,.478 slugging %
McGwire's stats with steroids .277 average, 710 home runs, 1594 rbis,.663 slugging %
*with steroids shows the impact of his stats if he played his entire career using steroids.
The statistical impact of using steroids and it's relevance on the history of the game is quite clear.
@ArtVandelay said:
McGwire came from USC which was noted for juicing in the 80's as did Randy Johnson. Steroids originally became prominent in the major sports in the 70's and was generally lightly used in the NFL more to speed up recovery time as well as to gain strength. The Steelers of the 70's were definitely known as big time users of steroids. It was rampant in their locker rooms. They were probably the first well known case of steroid abuse in the NFL.
However, the impact of steroids has its greatest impact in MLB. There is not a major professional sport even remotely close to seeing how much steroids impacts the individual performance. It's night and day when talking about MLB players who use. The first major player in my opinion to be a steroid abuser are Mike Schmidt and Nolan Ryan. There are other guys that played in the same era as these guys that are users as well but it was less prominent. The next generation of players is really where you saw it take off. The difference? They saw what kind of impact on the performance using steroids had. Also, the top players pre-80's were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Free Agency and the modern market started in the 80's and players were now earning multi million dollar contracts. The incentive to cheat became common place.
My primary point with steroids and baseball is that it destroyed the legacy of the game. Statistics were always what made baseball's history so rich. Once the cheaters surfaced and the numbers starting looking ridiculous it nullified the statistical aspect of baseball. Mark McGwire is the perfect example. With steroids his stats compare or are better than Babe Ruth. Without steroids his career totals are almost exactly the same as Dave Kingman. It's simple to figure this out as all you have to do is take his average pre-1992 (pre steroids) and apply those average to the rest of his at bats post 1992 (with steroids).
McGwire's stats without steroids. .244 average, 414 home runs, 1174 rbis .488 slugging %
Kingman's stats without steroids. .236 average, 442 home runs, 1210 rbis,.478 slugging %
McGwire's stats with steroids .277 average, 710 home runs, 1594 rbis,.663 slugging %
*with steroids shows the impact of his stats if he played his entire career using steroids.
The statistical impact of using steroids and it's relevance on the history of the game is quite clear.
The big problem with those stats are they dont factor in every other player using steroids. For instance a batter using steroids going up against pitchers who used.
@dustinspeaks said:
Who was the first guy to really abuse PEDs?
They call OJ Simpson "The Juice." His numbers stood out. PEDs? HOF.
Tom House was an abuser in the late 1960's. He was a teammate of hank Aaron during the home run pursuit and trained Nolan Ryan when he had his resurgence with the rangers.
There were others though, dating back to the late 1800's
I realize many/most people have decided Roger is guilty of using PEDS. He never failed a test and there was never any credible accusations against him.
Comparing his age 30-33 seasons to his age 34-42 seasons is, can we agree, abnormal.
Clemens age 30-33 seasons were better than his WL records show. His 94 and 96 seasons were quite good. His later career had some great seasons and some stinkers. Far far from a bonds type trajectory. In fact, also different from a Randy Johnson trajectory. There is no evidence he used. Only McNamee.
McNamee. And Canseco. And Pettitte. And Jason Grimsley.
I read both of Canseco's books and it seems he mentioned Clemens, but did not know if he was using. Pettite flipflopped on his claims and backed off from them.
What did Grimsly say about Clemens?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
There really should not be much debate over many of the guys that were suspected of using in the steroid era. I could understand 15 years ago debating the issue but time has allowed this picture to become crystal clear. The only debate left is really whether to allow the users into the hall of fame.
Here are some hypothetical career stats based off their actual stats. Basically, the without steroids statistic is based off taking an average of the years they most likely were not using steroids and applying it to their career total in at bats. The stats with steroids is taking their averages while using steroids and applying it to their career at bats. This allows you to really see how much of a difference steroids has. Of course, I tossed in their actual stats which is a combination of with and without steroids.
To summarize, you generally see a jump in batting average of 30 points with steroids. The power numbers see large increases by nearly doubling with the use of steroids. The slugging % also sees an average increase of about 80 points.
All these guys would be considered great players but the only 2 that probably make the hall without the use of steroids are Barry and ARod. Bonds would have retired with possibly 600+ steals and 10 gold gloves to go along with the 484 home runs. Those numbers still would have put him as one of the all time greats.
You are siting an erroneous report, originally run by the times. a year later, it was shown to be false and the times actually had to run a correction about the story.
You are siting an erroneous report, originally run by the times. a year later, it was shown to be false and the times actually had to run a correction about the story.
@softparade said:
I’m sorry to derail this thread but I’ll fight tooth and nail in defense of Babe Ruth all day every day. Craig’s position on a bat Ruth was using for a 4 week period in 1922 is one of the most ridiculous angles I’ve come across.
Babe Ruth was the greatest player in any sport, any time. Just my opinion. And, I am fairly sure he wasn't juiced. Not under the current rules.
@softparade said:
I’m sorry to derail this thread but I’ll fight tooth and nail in defense of Babe Ruth all day every day. Craig’s position on a bat Ruth was using for a 4 week period in 1922 is one of the most ridiculous angles I’ve come across.
Babe Ruth was the greatest player in any sport, any time. Just my opinion. And, I am fairly sure he wasn't juiced. Not under the current rules.
If you really want to trudge this one back up again... Have you ever heard of Ruths ¨bellyache heard round the world¨?
happened in 1925, he missed almost half the season if I remember correctly. It is believed he injected sheep testosterone into his stomach. I have no doubt in my mind he would have been as juiced as anyone else had he played in the 90´s.
the story about the illegal bat is verified and true. He most certainly did cheat for at least 4 weeks in 1922. that is a fact
Newspaper reporters called what Ruth had “a belly ache” caused by eating too many hot dogs and “chugging too many sodas.” But Ruth was more likely suffering from a venereal disease and/or alcohol poisoning.
@softparade said:
Newspaper reporters called what Ruth had “a belly ache” caused by eating too many hot dogs and “chugging too many sodas.” But Ruth was more likely suffering from a venereal disease and/or alcohol poisoning.
could be a VD or alcohol poisoning. He nevertheless did inject sheep testosterone looking for an edge. this from none other than Jay Jaffe:
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Jay Jaffe @jay_jaffe
And Babe Ruth injected testosterone extracted from sheep’s testicles in 1925.
and speaking of using French scientist Charles Edouard Brown-Sequardś research into the use of testosterone to make workers stronger in the 1880ś
“…As the sporting industry exploded in the 1920s, athletic trainers and their charges immediately saw the possibilities of using his research. Even the Big Bambino himself, Babe Ruth, injected himself with extract from a sheep’s testicles, hoping for increased power at the plate (and in the bedroom)
from dave zirins book, sports and politics collide.
IDK, part of me says they should just legalize PED's for sports. I know that probably isn't a popular view but at least then you have a more level playing field instead of just the dishonest ones being the most successful. I mean do people really think that those who really want it aren't one step ahead of the testing at all times? Are we to believe that there are no PEDs except for the ones who get caught? If there are any PEDs at all, how can you trust any statistics as being clean? Lack of proof does not prove they are clean and since we know they are used by at least some, how can we assume one guy is clean and the other is not? Instead, just say they all use it and let them use it.
I read some of the replies and most seemed to be about the actual usage, but the subject is the gaining of respect for PED era players within the hobby. This implies it was all lost at one point. Maybe initially, people were turned off by it, maybe stopped collecting their formerly favorite players, but the prices never really dumped too hard, did they?
It seems to me that there are some things that may have minor long term effects on the collectibility of certain players, but it seems nothing ever kills off the collectibility of anyone, period.
So many scandals, sometimes that even adds to popularity and collectibility. One extreme was that discovery of the Hoops Mark Jackson card with the Menendez brothers in the background. A dime card produced in the millions of copies is all the sudden selling for 2-3 figures because murderers just happened to be caught as spectators at a basketball game on the card? WTF is that about?
The big PED guys may have suffered a hit to their reputations initially, maybe a slight downturn over time, perhaps a blocking of their entrance to Cooperstown, but for most of them their card prices are never going to drop enough for anyone to really notice.
I collect Steve Garvey, Dodgers and signed cards. Collector since 1978.
For a long time I refused to put clemens '84 FU on my radar.
I advanced over a 10-year period to ....
"well, maybe I could think about"
"I think I'm going to consider buying it. I could keep him hidden in the back on the box"
"I'll add him to my watchlist. I'll watch for a good deal, it's only 500 bucks"
Today: "yeah, I did/I do want him in the collection. Now I really need to pony up the dough"
Same for bonds.
Each rookie class has a place in my PC.
My thought is the current prices are speculation that they could/should be in by those who are bullish on the PED stance. If these guys get in, prices will go up with room to grow as those who choose to be on the sidelines now will have to have these players in their collections, and now pay the price, as demand will certainly increase. Right now you really have to decide if you want these cards/players in your collection as I don't see current pricing dropping. If you wait you may have to pony up. Now, of course I don't include a potential hobby pricing correction in my thinking, but if that were to happen across the board, then my thinking will have to be adjusted along with the price drops.
My thinking is they don't get in. The next step is Veteran's Committee I believe? If so, what are the chances these guys get in if their contemporaries are on the committee? May be years down the road.
Comments
Rob Deer was a true strikeout artist.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As a Brewers fan, I full agree with you on Mr. Deer. He was ahead of his time, before strikeouts were the it thing.
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
Since Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa HR season. How much credit do they deserve for bringing fans back. Does that affect the possibility of making the HOF?
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
That does not affect their ability to make it into the HOF. I predict they both don’t make it in.
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
lol. come on now.OJ was called "juice" because his name was OJ which is what many people call Orange Juice. Oj's numbers stood out because he was a superior athlete much like Jim Brown and Barry Sanders. His numbers were not terrific his first couple of years simply because he had a weak line and a terrible coach who did not know how to use him. Once that changed he became one of the greatest running backs of all time.
Comparing his age 30-33 seasons to his age 34-42 seasons is, can we agree, abnormal.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero02.shtml
I'm sure there were HOF players in the 70's that took them. We know football players from that era did.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
McGwire came from USC which was noted for juicing in the 80's as did Randy Johnson. Steroids originally became prominent in the major sports in the 70's and was generally lightly used in the NFL more to speed up recovery time as well as to gain strength. The Steelers of the 70's were definitely known as big time users of steroids. It was rampant in their locker rooms. They were probably the first well known case of steroid abuse in the NFL.
However, the impact of steroids has its greatest impact in MLB. There is not a major professional sport even remotely close to seeing how much steroids impacts the individual performance. It's night and day when talking about MLB players who use. The first major player in my opinion to be a steroid abuser are Mike Schmidt and Nolan Ryan. There are other guys that played in the same era as these guys that are users as well but it was less prominent. The next generation of players is really where you saw it take off. The difference? They saw what kind of impact on the performance using steroids had. Also, the top players pre-80's were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Free Agency and the modern market started in the 80's and players were now earning multi million dollar contracts. The incentive to cheat became common place.
My primary point with steroids and baseball is that it destroyed the legacy of the game. Statistics were always what made baseball's history so rich. Once the cheaters surfaced and the numbers starting looking ridiculous it nullified the statistical aspect of baseball. Mark McGwire is the perfect example. With steroids his stats compare or are better than Babe Ruth. Without steroids his career totals are almost exactly the same as Dave Kingman. It's simple to figure this out as all you have to do is take his average pre-1992 (pre steroids) and apply those average to the rest of his at bats post 1992 (with steroids).
McGwire's stats without steroids. .244 average, 414 home runs, 1174 rbis .488 slugging %
Kingman's stats without steroids. .236 average, 442 home runs, 1210 rbis,.478 slugging %
McGwire's stats with steroids .277 average, 710 home runs, 1594 rbis,.663 slugging %
*with steroids shows the impact of his stats if he played his entire career using steroids.
The statistical impact of using steroids and it's relevance on the history of the game is quite clear.
The big problem with those stats are they dont factor in every other player using steroids. For instance a batter using steroids going up against pitchers who used.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Tom House was an abuser in the late 1960's. He was a teammate of hank Aaron during the home run pursuit and trained Nolan Ryan when he had his resurgence with the rangers.
There were others though, dating back to the late 1800's
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Clemens age 30-33 seasons were better than his WL records show. His 94 and 96 seasons were quite good. His later career had some great seasons and some stinkers. Far far from a bonds type trajectory. In fact, also different from a Randy Johnson trajectory. There is no evidence he used. Only McNamee.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
McNamee. And Canseco. And Pettitte. And Jason Grimsley.
I read both of Canseco's books and it seems he mentioned Clemens, but did not know if he was using. Pettite flipflopped on his claims and backed off from them.
What did Grimsly say about Clemens?
There really should not be much debate over many of the guys that were suspected of using in the steroid era. I could understand 15 years ago debating the issue but time has allowed this picture to become crystal clear. The only debate left is really whether to allow the users into the hall of fame.
Here are some hypothetical career stats based off their actual stats. Basically, the without steroids statistic is based off taking an average of the years they most likely were not using steroids and applying it to their career total in at bats. The stats with steroids is taking their averages while using steroids and applying it to their career at bats. This allows you to really see how much of a difference steroids has. Of course, I tossed in their actual stats which is a combination of with and without steroids.
McGwire
w/o steroids: .244avg 414 hrs 1174 rbis .488 slugging
with steroids: .277avg 710 hrs 1594 rbis .663 slugging
Real statistics: .263avg 583 hrs 1414 rbis .588 slugging
Sosa.
w/o steroids: .253avg 361 hrs 1156 rbis .437 slugging
with steroids: .286avg 740 hrs 1894 rbis .588 slugging
Real statistics: .271avg 609 hrs 1667 rbis .534 slugging
Palmeiro
w/o steroids: .296 avg 304 hrs 1348 rbis .457 slugging
with steroids: .285 avg 689 hrs 2056 rbis .541 slugging
Real statistics: .288 avg 569 hrs 1835 rbis .515 slugging
Ortiz
w/o steroids: .266 avg 339 hrs 1392 rbis ..461 slugging
with steroids: .290 avg 582 hrs 1845 rbis .594 slugging
Real statistics: 286 avg 541 hrs 1530 rbis .570 slugging
Barry
w/o steroids: .275 avg 484 hrs 1527 rbis .503 slugging
with steroids: .312 avg 921hrs 2264 rbis. .666 slugging
Real statistics: .298 avg 762 hrs 1996 rbis .607 slugging
ARod
w/o steroids: .280 avg 488 hrs 1602 rbis .488 slugging
with steroids: .303 avg 792 hrs 2257 rbis .584 slugging
Real statistics: .295 avg 696 hrs 2086 rbis .550 slugging
To summarize, you generally see a jump in batting average of 30 points with steroids. The power numbers see large increases by nearly doubling with the use of steroids. The slugging % also sees an average increase of about 80 points.
All these guys would be considered great players but the only 2 that probably make the hall without the use of steroids are Barry and ARod. Bonds would have retired with possibly 600+ steals and 10 gold gloves to go along with the 484 home runs. Those numbers still would have put him as one of the all time greats.
Eddie Matthews, Ernie Banks, Jimmie Foxx, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Frank Robinson, Ted Williams .... all on the juice?
we know that willie and hank used PED. no proof, but some believe Williams was as well. we also know Ruth used an illegal bat.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Canseco says Clemens never Juiced. Pettitte was an unreliable witness who couldnt accurately remember. Grimsley had nothing to say on Clemens
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Canseco will never be inducted into the HOF.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
http://archive.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/10/01/clemens_named_in_affidavit/
Interesting that Grimsley said "performance enhancing drugs" when referring to Clemens and Petitte and anabolic steroids when talking about Tejada.
I certainly suspect that Clemens used some form of PED, but the evidence isn't as strong as a failed test.
I would tend to agree, but I'm glad he did write the books exposing how widespread the steroid use was/is.
Wrong.
You are siting an erroneous report, originally run by the times. a year later, it was shown to be false and the times actually had to run a correction about the story.
so no, Grimsly had nothing to say on clemens.
https://www.chron.com/sports/astros/article/Judge-Clemens-wrongly-implicated-in-2006-1653102.php
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thanks for the correction.
another record breaking Clemens sale
1985 Topps Tiffany PSA 10 $9000.00 on ebay.
this card is creeping to 5 figures.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If he makes it to cooperstown this year or next, where will this card go? 12K? 15K? 20K?
Mcgwires tiffany is already outpacing Clemens and he is off the ballot.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
as it should be
there are only 5000 tiffanys 1985 i believe, correct me if im wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Babe Ruth was the greatest player in any sport, any time. Just my opinion. And, I am fairly sure he wasn't juiced.
Not under the current rules.
If you really want to trudge this one back up again... Have you ever heard of Ruths ¨bellyache heard round the world¨?
happened in 1925, he missed almost half the season if I remember correctly. It is believed he injected sheep testosterone into his stomach. I have no doubt in my mind he would have been as juiced as anyone else had he played in the 90´s.
the story about the illegal bat is verified and true. He most certainly did cheat for at least 4 weeks in 1922. that is a fact
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Newspaper reporters called what Ruth had “a belly ache” caused by eating too many hot dogs and “chugging too many sodas.” But Ruth was more likely suffering from a venereal disease and/or alcohol poisoning.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
could be a VD or alcohol poisoning. He nevertheless did inject sheep testosterone looking for an edge. this from none other than Jay Jaffe:
Tweet
See new Tweets
Conversation
Jay Jaffe
@jay_jaffe
And Babe Ruth injected testosterone extracted from sheep’s testicles in 1925.
and speaking of using French scientist Charles Edouard Brown-Sequardś research into the use of testosterone to make workers stronger in the 1880ś
“…As the sporting industry exploded in the 1920s, athletic trainers and their charges immediately saw the possibilities of using his research. Even the Big Bambino himself, Babe Ruth, injected himself with extract from a sheep’s testicles, hoping for increased power at the plate (and in the bedroom)
from dave zirins book, sports and politics collide.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
IDK, part of me says they should just legalize PED's for sports. I know that probably isn't a popular view but at least then you have a more level playing field instead of just the dishonest ones being the most successful. I mean do people really think that those who really want it aren't one step ahead of the testing at all times? Are we to believe that there are no PEDs except for the ones who get caught? If there are any PEDs at all, how can you trust any statistics as being clean? Lack of proof does not prove they are clean and since we know they are used by at least some, how can we assume one guy is clean and the other is not? Instead, just say they all use it and let them use it.
I read some of the replies and most seemed to be about the actual usage, but the subject is the gaining of respect for PED era players within the hobby. This implies it was all lost at one point. Maybe initially, people were turned off by it, maybe stopped collecting their formerly favorite players, but the prices never really dumped too hard, did they?
It seems to me that there are some things that may have minor long term effects on the collectibility of certain players, but it seems nothing ever kills off the collectibility of anyone, period.
So many scandals, sometimes that even adds to popularity and collectibility. One extreme was that discovery of the Hoops Mark Jackson card with the Menendez brothers in the background. A dime card produced in the millions of copies is all the sudden selling for 2-3 figures because murderers just happened to be caught as spectators at a basketball game on the card? WTF is that about?
The big PED guys may have suffered a hit to their reputations initially, maybe a slight downturn over time, perhaps a blocking of their entrance to Cooperstown, but for most of them their card prices are never going to drop enough for anyone to really notice.
For a long time I refused to put clemens '84 FU on my radar.
I advanced over a 10-year period to ....
"well, maybe I could think about"
"I think I'm going to consider buying it. I could keep him hidden in the back on the box"
"I'll add him to my watchlist. I'll watch for a good deal, it's only 500 bucks"
Today: "yeah, I did/I do want him in the collection. Now I really need to pony up the dough"
Same for bonds.
Each rookie class has a place in my PC.
My thought is the current prices are speculation that they could/should be in by those who are bullish on the PED stance. If these guys get in, prices will go up with room to grow as those who choose to be on the sidelines now will have to have these players in their collections, and now pay the price, as demand will certainly increase. Right now you really have to decide if you want these cards/players in your collection as I don't see current pricing dropping. If you wait you may have to pony up. Now, of course I don't include a potential hobby pricing correction in my thinking, but if that were to happen across the board, then my thinking will have to be adjusted along with the price drops.
My thinking is they don't get in. The next step is Veteran's Committee I believe? If so, what are the chances these guys get in if their contemporaries are on the committee? May be years down the road.