"steroid" accused players gaining hobby respect?
craig44
Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have noticed lately that some of the "steroid" accused players having some really strong sales. Here are a few examples of top two sales in the last few months:
PSA 10 1985 tiffany Mcgwire 11-12-18 $5100.00, 12-12-18 $3900.00
PSA 10 1985 tiffany Clemens 9-30-18 $3900.00 12-18-18 $ 7877.00
PSA 10 1987 OPC Bonds 11-13-18 $2146.21 9-30-18 $2325.00
are people starting to disregard the negativity of the steroid era? Are they looking ahead to Bonds, Clemens getting into the HOF?
I think I remember these cards being stone cold 5-10 years ago. what is going on here?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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WOW a Clemens went for almost 8k. Ugh. You could have bought that card less than five years ago for like $1,200.
I know. Do you think it is HOF speculation? I know for Clemens there have been two $5000+ sales this year and 2 or 3 $4000+ sales this year. Mcgwires have also been strong sellers.
I know Mcgwire is off the ballot but Bonds and Clemens are hovering around the low 70's% on the HOF tracker right now.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Here's my hot take..... I personally don't understand hype/speculation for guys who may potentially enter the Hall. Do we see a spike in prices when it happens, of course. But seems eventually it dies down and prices go back to where they were. In the case of the cards mentioned above, I think there are a couple reasons. First off, these are classic cards that are extremely difficult to find in these grades. Second, the generation that grew up with these cards have gotten older and have the financial means to afford them at this point in their lives.
So, in my mind, I don't think them getting into the Hall plays THAT much into the skyrocketing prices at this point. If/when they do though, they will go higher.
Hey now, I've been spouting that hot take for about a year.
I think it's becoming clear that Bonds and Clemens are going to get in. I think that's causing people to go back and look at their cards more seriously. The '85 Topps Clemens and McGwire PSA 10s are two of the toughest PSA 10s of the decade (outside of just the '80 Henderson). We're also starting to see an influx of adult collectors who were from the hobby boom of the late-'80s. So while there's a an unprecedented amount of product from that period, I believe we're also going to see an unprecedented amount of new collectors entering the market as adults whose nostalgia period is that very hobby boom of the mid- to late-'80s.
I have absolutely no idea what that's going to mean. There's no telling where those collectors will eventually go after they re-enter the hobby. But it's not just Clemens and Bonds. Look at the price of the Canseco Rated Rookie. Look at the price of the Griffey Rated Rookie. There are all sorts of smaller boats that are going unnoticed that the tide is lifting as well.
I'm genuinely curious to see what happens in the next 10 years as those hobby boom kids enter their peak earning years and their kids begin to leave the house. I have absolutely no idea what will happen but I'm fairly sure it will be a unique hobby event and that makes me excited for the health of the hobby.
Four years ago, CU was predominantly 1970s. The rips were '70s, the pickups were '70s, the sets being talked about were '70s, that was the period the average collector here was focused on. I feel like that's shifted now to the 1980s.
Arthur
Haha, that's because everyone ripped all the 70's stuff in the last couple years and the prices have gotten crazy!!
I think Bonds, Clemens, and Alex Rodriguez should get in. The numbers they put up were among the best ever.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
I touched on this recently in another thread. I don't think things will "shift" out of the 70's but EXPAND into the 80's. I am one that thinks there will be a junk years renaissance in super high grade .... and especially for Gem Mint Raw collecting. Why? For many of the reasons you just laid out which I agree with.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
that is an interesting take on how popular 70's threads were 4 or 5 years ago. while some still come up, not as prevalent as before.
I will have to check out some other 80's cards like the canseco. can you imagine if there had been a tiffany set in 82 or 83? I wonder what a ripken or gwynn would go for?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Forget those scrubs! Based on the last couple weeks of sales, try to imagine what an 81 Topps Tiffany Baines would sell for! Haha! I'm kidding, but so glad I picked up my Baines 9 for my 81 registry set some time ago for a tenth or less of current prices. I whiffed on all of my previous attempts at a Lee Smith PSA 9, but I'm not as actively working on the 82s, so didn't sweat it at the time.
I just checked out some completed sales for the 81 topps Baines. Here are some results for dec. 9 and before
PSA 8 averaged about $12, PSA 9 averaged about $33
after the HOF announcement here are some completed sales figures
PSA 8: $63, $61, $70
PSA9: $217.50, $140, $189
those are some pretty staggering increases. now I realize those prices will settle after some time, but the new normal price for this card will certainly be higher than it was pre election.
It makes me wonder what an 87 OPC or 86 Tiffany Bonds would do, or the 85 Tiffany Clemens.
could be HOF set collectors or just increased interest in general leading this charge. Or it could be as was mentioned above, an increase of interest in high grade 80's cards.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Same info for 82 Smith psa 8 and 9
before HOF psa 9's were averaging about $15, 8's were in the single digits
After HOF 9's averaging about $75, 8's about $34
again, a significant difference
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
these were our child hood heroes !!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Didn't Canseco "become honest" after he got caught? I mean, that's not really becoming honest, that's more like wanting to bring down everyone else with him.
Arthur
I dont think Canseco was caught. I think it was more of a he needed some money after the playing career was over and wrote a couple of books. I do think he ended up being correct on about everything he said though. which is interesting because he said he had first hand knowledge of a current HOFer, Ivan Rodriguez using PED. Interesting as well, He has repeatedly stated over the years that he did not believe Clemens did use. who knows for sure.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
NEVER! They didn't put up the numbers.
Obviously neither of you guys have read both of Canseco's books. I picked them up used for next to nothing on ebay.
In the second book he explains about Clemens. He WAS mentioned in the first book and the publishers took it out.
in 2008, Canseco issued a sworn affidavit to congress stating he had no evidence against clemens and did not believe he ever used.
Google it yourself. There are pages and pages and pages.
My stance on clemens has softened over the years. I have read a few books about it and am not 100% sure in his case. The evidence against him really comes from one person, and is pretty weak at that. For Clemens, it really comes down to his word against Macnamees.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I don't think we are going to see a full graded set explosion from the 80's. But I do think we will see those mi
Said Pete Rose never.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Yup. Baseball's history is full of cheaters, racists, dbags and aholes. After a while, all anyone sees are the stats and the plays. There's a great quote -- and I'm paraphrasing here, but -- given enough time, all buildings and hookers become dignified. Perhaps baseball players should be added to that.
Forty years from now the steroid stuff will be nothing but a footnote.
Arthur
You could be right
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Canseco is the GOAT !!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Gotcha, BUT the HOF is always attached to a disco like this because once inducted it obviously changes the price structure of most if not all cards and especially rookie or 1st cards.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
We'll see. There has never been a concerted effort before to collude against a certain segment of players like this aside from the 1919 Black Sox cheaters perhaps.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
i have 2866 hits and 11 gloves , who am i
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I can see this but I still believe the price re-structures. Maybe not on margins like a unexpected surprise in Baines. There are so many HOF only or HOF heavy collectors ...
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Another 85 tiffany Clemens PSA 10 is on the block. $4350.00 with 5 1/2 days left. How high will this one go?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Read Canseco's second book "Vindicated". I used to give Clemens more of the benefit of the doubt, now I am leaning the other way.
Just about everything in the first book was proven true, the second book explains more. I am not a fan of any cheater, buy Canseco seems (to me) to have told the truth in his books.
I have read both the books. I would value a sworn affidavit over a tell all book any day. Everything he has said for the last 10 years has been in support of Clemens. Like I said earlier, I have softened on Clemens case in the last few years. Basically his word against macnamees. No hard evidence
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It is rather comical, when I look back at my childhood heroes and my brother's, that every one of them ended up with either PED or drug issues. Mine were Canseco and McGwire. My brother's were Clemens and Strawberry.
Funny, I never gravitated toward Canseco or McGwire. I followed their careers, for sure. Mine were Clemens, Boggs, Mattingly, Greenwell. I liked -- and still like -- the hitter who hits for average, not the HR hitter.
Andy
If only Greenwell's knees didn't crap out on him.
1987 .328 40k .956OPS
1988 .325 38k .946OPS
1989 .308 44k
1990 .297 43k
1991 .300 35k
He always had more extra-base hits than strikeouts. 1992 was a lost year to injuries. He came back healthy in 1993.
1993 .315 46k 57 extra-base hits
Then it was 3 injury-plagued seasons and he was out of baseball at the age of 32. Career .303 121 OPS+ 433 extra-base hits 460 BBs 364 strikeouts all while playing Gold Glove-caliber defense with a cannon of an arm. If only...
Arthur
He will always be in my personal HOF. And no one on this planet will ever be able to convince me otherwise. I loved getting the sports section of the newspaper every day and seeing Greenwell go 2 for 4 or 3 for 4. I think his first 3 hits in the big leagues were HRs. I also love that he is the #1 card in the 1989 Donruss set. The day I get that card in a PSA 10 will be a very satisfying day for me.
Andy
Robbed of the '88 AL MVP by that cheating bastard Canseco.
Arthur
Gets my blood pressure up every time I think of it.
Andy
I remember wanting the 87 donruss greenwell with the red print variation. Was hot at the time
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
A good friend of mine got me a binder full of about 300 Greenwell rookies for my birthday. He meant it as a joke but there were actually a few red line cards and some Topps blue/white scratch variations. They are the only red lines I've come across, so his joke gift turned out to be a legitimately awesome gift.
Arthur
^ I keep my eyes peeled for the red line in PSA 10. Haven't seen one. There's a raw on eBay right now.
Andy
That's the one. Always wanted one as a kid, and now it seems most have forgotten both the player and the variation
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That's okay by me. I like his card prices where they are.
Andy
This might need to be purchased and "BALROGed."
https://ebay.com/itm/Mike-Greenwell-Jose-Canseco-71-Style-Reprint-1-1/283317729594?hash=item41f70d793a:g:AQ0AAOSwTxhcJC4u:rk:2:pf:0
Andy
It brings me joy to see you guys talking about Mike Greenwell. For me, Greenwell's 1987 Donruss The Rookies and 1988 Topps cards are my all time favorites of his and I just subbed an 87 Donruss The Rookies to PSA. Fingers crossed. I'd be happy with a 9, but I'm certainly aiming for a 10. I feel lucky just to have a PSA 9 of his 1988 Topps Tiffany.
With regards to the original post, I think that 80's cards are already starting to see some upward movement and I don't see it stopping. Nostalgia, plus the challenge of actually subbing a PSA 10 from that era, will keep the trajectory moving up. I think people vastly underestimate just how tough it is to pull a GEM MINT card from that era.
Another 1985 tiffany psa 10 Clemens has sold for $5100.00. Very high prices realized
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
1985 tiffany mcgwire psa10 just sold for $3952.00
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Buy all the early to mid 80’s unopened you can now.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240