"steroid" accused players gaining hobby respect?

craig44

I have noticed lately that some of the "steroid" accused players having some really strong sales. Here are a few examples of top two sales in the last few months:
PSA 10 1985 tiffany Mcgwire 11-12-18 $5100.00, 12-12-18 $3900.00
PSA 10 1985 tiffany Clemens 9-30-18 $3900.00 12-18-18 $ 7877.00
PSA 10 1987 OPC Bonds 11-13-18 $2146.21 9-30-18 $2325.00

are people starting to disregard the negativity of the steroid era? Are they looking ahead to Bonds, Clemens getting into the HOF?

I think I remember these cards being stone cold 5-10 years ago. what is going on here?

Dpeck100

WOW a Clemens went for almost 8k. Ugh. You could have bought that card less than five years ago for like $1,200.

craig44

I know. Do you think it is HOF speculation? I know for Clemens there have been two $5000+ sales this year and 2 or 3 $4000+ sales this year. Mcgwires have also been strong sellers.

I know Mcgwire is off the ballot but Bonds and Clemens are hovering around the low 70's% on the HOF tracker right now.

PROMETHIUS88

Here's my hot take..... I personally don't understand hype/speculation for guys who may potentially enter the Hall. Do we see a spike in prices when it happens, of course. But seems eventually it dies down and prices go back to where they were. In the case of the cards mentioned above, I think there are a couple reasons. First off, these are classic cards that are extremely difficult to find in these grades. Second, the generation that grew up with these cards have gotten older and have the financial means to afford them at this point in their lives.
So, in my mind, I don't think them getting into the Hall plays THAT much into the skyrocketing prices at this point. If/when they do though, they will go higher.

ReggieCleveland

Hey now, I've been spouting that hot take for about a year.

I think it's becoming clear that Bonds and Clemens are going to get in. I think that's causing people to go back and look at their cards more seriously. The '85 Topps Clemens and McGwire PSA 10s are two of the toughest PSA 10s of the decade (outside of just the '80 Henderson). We're also starting to see an influx of adult collectors who were from the hobby boom of the late-'80s. So while there's a an unprecedented amount of product from that period, I believe we're also going to see an unprecedented amount of new collectors entering the market as adults whose nostalgia period is that very hobby boom of the mid- to late-'80s.

I have absolutely no idea what that's going to mean. There's no telling where those collectors will eventually go after they re-enter the hobby. But it's not just Clemens and Bonds. Look at the price of the Canseco Rated Rookie. Look at the price of the Griffey Rated Rookie. There are all sorts of smaller boats that are going unnoticed that the tide is lifting as well.

I'm genuinely curious to see what happens in the next 10 years as those hobby boom kids enter their peak earning years and their kids begin to leave the house. I have absolutely no idea what will happen but I'm fairly sure it will be a unique hobby event and that makes me excited for the health of the hobby.

Four years ago, CU was predominantly 1970s. The rips were '70s, the pickups were '70s, the sets being talked about were '70s, that was the period the average collector here was focused on. I feel like that's shifted now to the 1980s.

Arthur

PROMETHIUS88

@ReggieCleveland said:

Four years ago, CU was predominantly 1970s. The rips were '70s, the pickups were '70s, the sets being talked about were '70s, that was the period the average collector here was focused on. I feel like that's shifted now to the 1980s.

Arthur

Haha, that's because everyone ripped all the 70's stuff in the last couple years and the prices have gotten crazy!!

stwainfan

I think Bonds, Clemens, and Alex Rodriguez should get in. The numbers they put up were among the best ever.

softparade

@ReggieCleveland said:
Hey now, I've been spouting that hot take for about a year.

I think it's becoming clear that Bonds and Clemens are going to get in. I think that's causing people to go back and look at their cards more seriously. The '85 Topps Clemens and McGwire PSA 10s are two of the toughest PSA 10s of the decade (outside of just the '80 Henderson). We're also starting to see an influx of adult collectors who were from the hobby boom of the late-'80s. So while there's a an unprecedented amount of product from that period, I believe we're also going to see an unprecedented amount of new collectors entering the market as adults whose nostalgia period is that very hobby boom of the mid- to late-'80s.

I have absolutely no idea what that's going to mean. There's no telling where those collectors will eventually go after they re-enter the hobby. But it's not just Clemens and Bonds. Look at the price of the Canseco Rated Rookie. Look at the price of the Griffey Rated Rookie. There are all sorts of smaller boats that are going unnoticed that the tide is lifting as well.

I'm genuinely curious to see what happens in the next 10 years as those hobby boom kids enter their peak earning years and their kids begin to leave the house. I have absolutely no idea what will happen but I'm fairly sure it will be a unique hobby event and that makes me excited for the health of the hobby.

Four years ago, CU was predominantly 1970s. The rips were '70s, the pickups were '70s, the sets being talked about were '70s, that was the period the average collector here was focused on. I feel like that's shifted now to the 1980s.

Arthur

I touched on this recently in another thread. I don't think things will "shift" out of the 70's but EXPAND into the 80's. I am one that thinks there will be a junk years renaissance in super high grade .... and especially for Gem Mint Raw collecting. Why? For many of the reasons you just laid out which I agree with.

craig44

that is an interesting take on how popular 70's threads were 4 or 5 years ago. while some still come up, not as prevalent as before.

I will have to check out some other 80's cards like the canseco. can you imagine if there had been a tiffany set in 82 or 83? I wonder what a ripken or gwynn would go for?

countdouglas

@craig44 said:

I will have to check out some other 80's cards like the canseco. can you imagine if there had been a tiffany set in 82 or 83? I wonder what a ripken or gwynn would go for?

Forget those scrubs! Based on the last couple weeks of sales, try to imagine what an 81 Topps Tiffany Baines would sell for! Haha! I'm kidding, but so glad I picked up my Baines 9 for my 81 registry set some time ago for a tenth or less of current prices. I whiffed on all of my previous attempts at a Lee Smith PSA 9, but I'm not as actively working on the 82s, so didn't sweat it at the time.

craig44

I just checked out some completed sales for the 81 topps Baines. Here are some results for dec. 9 and before

PSA 8 averaged about $12, PSA 9 averaged about $33
after the HOF announcement here are some completed sales figures

PSA 8: $63, $61, $70
PSA9: $217.50, $140, $189

those are some pretty staggering increases. now I realize those prices will settle after some time, but the new normal price for this card will certainly be higher than it was pre election.

It makes me wonder what an 87 OPC or 86 Tiffany Bonds would do, or the 85 Tiffany Clemens.

could be HOF set collectors or just increased interest in general leading this charge. Or it could be as was mentioned above, an increase of interest in high grade 80's cards.

craig44

Same info for 82 Smith psa 8 and 9
before HOF psa 9's were averaging about $15, 8's were in the single digits

After HOF 9's averaging about $75, 8's about $34

again, a significant difference

lawyer05

these were our child hood heroes !!!

ReggieCleveland

Didn't Canseco "become honest" after he got caught? I mean, that's not really becoming honest, that's more like wanting to bring down everyone else with him.

Arthur

craig44

I dont think Canseco was caught. I think it was more of a he needed some money after the playing career was over and wrote a couple of books. I do think he ended up being correct on about everything he said though. which is interesting because he said he had first hand knowledge of a current HOFer, Ivan Rodriguez using PED. Interesting as well, He has repeatedly stated over the years that he did not believe Clemens did use. who knows for sure.

JoeBanzai

@stwainfan said:
I think Bonds, Clemens, and Alex Rodriguez should get in. The numbers they put up were among the best ever.

NEVER! They didn't put up the numbers.

@craig44 said:
I dont think Canseco was caught. I think it was more of a he needed some money after the playing career was over and wrote a couple of books. I do think he ended up being correct on about everything he said though. which is interesting because he said he had first hand knowledge of a current HOFer, Ivan Rodriguez using PED. Interesting as well, He has repeatedly stated over the years that he did not believe Clemens did use. who knows for sure.

Obviously neither of you guys have read both of Canseco's books. I picked them up used for next to nothing on ebay.

In the second book he explains about Clemens. He WAS mentioned in the first book and the publishers took it out.

craig44

@JoeBanzai said:

@stwainfan said:
I think Bonds, Clemens, and Alex Rodriguez should get in. The numbers they put up were among the best ever.

NEVER! They didn't put up the numbers.

@craig44 said:
I dont think Canseco was caught. I think it was more of a he needed some money after the playing career was over and wrote a couple of books. I do think he ended up being correct on about everything he said though. which is interesting because he said he had first hand knowledge of a current HOFer, Ivan Rodriguez using PED. Interesting as well, He has repeatedly stated over the years that he did not believe Clemens did use. who knows for sure.

Obviously neither of you guys have read both of Canseco's books. I picked them up used for next to nothing on ebay.

In the second book he explains about Clemens. He WAS mentioned in the first book and the publishers took it out.

in 2008, Canseco issued a sworn affidavit to congress stating he had no evidence against clemens and did not believe he ever used.

Google it yourself. There are pages and pages and pages.
My stance on clemens has softened over the years. I have read a few books about it and am not 100% sure in his case. The evidence against him really comes from one person, and is pretty weak at that. For Clemens, it really comes down to his word against Macnamees.

softparade

@craig44 said:
that is an interesting take on how popular 70's threads were 4 or 5 years ago. while some still come up, not as prevalent as before.

I will have to check out some other 80's cards like the canseco. can you imagine if there had been a tiffany set in 82 or 83? I wonder what a ripken or gwynn would go for?

I don't think we are going to see a full graded set explosion from the 80's. But I do think we will see those mi

@han_soto said:
Time heals all wounds.

Said Pete Rose never.

ReggieCleveland

@han_soto said:
Time heals all wounds.

Yup. Baseball's history is full of cheaters, racists, dbags and aholes. After a while, all anyone sees are the stats and the plays. There's a great quote -- and I'm paraphrasing here, but -- given enough time, all buildings and hookers become dignified. Perhaps baseball players should be added to that.

Forty years from now the steroid stuff will be nothing but a footnote.

Arthur

craig44

@ReggieCleveland said:

@han_soto said:
Time heals all wounds.

Yup. Baseball's history is full of cheaters, racists, dbags and aholes. After a while, all anyone sees are the stats and the plays. There's a great quote -- and I'm paraphrasing here, but -- given enough time, all buildings and hookers become dignified. Perhaps baseball players should be added to that.

Forty years from now the steroid stuff will be nothing but a footnote.

Arthur

You could be right

lawyer05

Canseco is the GOAT !!

softparade

@han_soto said:

@softparade said:

@craig44 said:
that is an interesting take on how popular 70's threads were 4 or 5 years ago. while some still come up, not as prevalent as before.

I will have to check out some other 80's cards like the canseco. can you imagine if there had been a tiffany set in 82 or 83? I wonder what a ripken or gwynn would go for?

I don't think we are going to see a full graded set explosion from the 80's. But I do think we will see those mi

@han_soto said:
Time heals all wounds.

Said Pete Rose never.

Didnt say “The Haul”. Pete Rose cards certainly dipped around all of his various scandals and after a little “time”...”healed” accordingly.

Gotcha, BUT the HOF is always attached to a disco like this because once inducted it obviously changes the price structure of most if not all cards and especially rookie or 1st cards.

softparade

@ReggieCleveland said:

@han_soto said:
Time heals all wounds.

Yup. Baseball's history is full of cheaters, racists, dbags and aholes. After a while, all anyone sees are the stats and the plays. There's a great quote -- and I'm paraphrasing here, but -- given enough time, all buildings and hookers become dignified. Perhaps baseball players should be added to that.

Forty years from now the steroid stuff will be nothing but a footnote.

Arthur

We'll see. There has never been a concerted effort before to collude against a certain segment of players like this aside from the 1919 Black Sox cheaters perhaps.

lawyer05

i have 2866 hits and 11 gloves , who am i

softparade

@han_soto said:

@softparade said:

@han_soto said:

Didnt say “The Haul”. Pete Rose cards certainly dipped around all of his various scandals and after a little “time”...”healed” accordingly.

Gotcha, BUT the HOF is always attached to a disco like this because once inducted it obviously changes the price structure of most if not all cards and especially rookie or 1st cards.

I will have to disagree.

Pete’s prices are already structured as if he were in the hall.

Sure prices would rise around announcement and induction time but I dont think it would launch them into another stratosphere or make them otherwise “noticeable” like a 10x Baines card. He’s already there. His rc outsells most HOF’s already.

In fact, I think the Rose vs Hall debate works for him, not against him and most certainly keeps him relevant every year “The Hall” talk starts back up.

I can see this but I still believe the price re-structures. Maybe not on margins like a unexpected surprise in Baines. There are so many HOF only or HOF heavy collectors ...

craig44

Another 85 tiffany Clemens PSA 10 is on the block. $4350.00 with 5 1/2 days left. How high will this one go?

JoeBanzai

@craig44 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@stwainfan said:
I think Bonds, Clemens, and Alex Rodriguez should get in. The numbers they put up were among the best ever.

NEVER! They didn't put up the numbers.

@craig44 said:
I dont think Canseco was caught. I think it was more of a he needed some money after the playing career was over and wrote a couple of books. I do think he ended up being correct on about everything he said though. which is interesting because he said he had first hand knowledge of a current HOFer, Ivan Rodriguez using PED. Interesting as well, He has repeatedly stated over the years that he did not believe Clemens did use. who knows for sure.

Obviously neither of you guys have read both of Canseco's books. I picked them up used for next to nothing on ebay.

In the second book he explains about Clemens. He WAS mentioned in the first book and the publishers took it out.

in 2008, Canseco issued a sworn affidavit to congress stating he had no evidence against clemens and did not believe he ever used.

Google it yourself. There are pages and pages and pages.
My stance on clemens has softened over the years. I have read a few books about it and am not 100% sure in his case. The evidence against him really comes from one person, and is pretty weak at that. For Clemens, it really comes down to his word against Macnamees.

Read Canseco's second book "Vindicated". I used to give Clemens more of the benefit of the doubt, now I am leaning the other way.

Just about everything in the first book was proven true, the second book explains more. I am not a fan of any cheater, buy Canseco seems (to me) to have told the truth in his books.

craig44

I have read both the books. I would value a sworn affidavit over a tell all book any day. Everything he has said for the last 10 years has been in support of Clemens. Like I said earlier, I have softened on Clemens case in the last few years. Basically his word against macnamees. No hard evidence

lahmejoon

It is rather comical, when I look back at my childhood heroes and my brother's, that every one of them ended up with either PED or drug issues. Mine were Canseco and McGwire. My brother's were Clemens and Strawberry.

ahopkins

@lahmejoon said:
It is rather comical, when I look back at my childhood heroes and my brother's, that every one of them ended up with either PED or drug issues. Mine were Canseco and McGwire. My brother's were Clemens and Strawberry.

Funny, I never gravitated toward Canseco or McGwire. I followed their careers, for sure. Mine were Clemens, Boggs, Mattingly, Greenwell. I liked -- and still like -- the hitter who hits for average, not the HR hitter.

ReggieCleveland

@ahopkins said:

@lahmejoon said:
It is rather comical, when I look back at my childhood heroes and my brother's, that every one of them ended up with either PED or drug issues. Mine were Canseco and McGwire. My brother's were Clemens and Strawberry.

Funny, I never gravitated toward Canseco or McGwire. I followed their careers, for sure. Mine were Clemens, Boggs, Mattingly, Greenwell. I liked -- and still like -- the hitter who hits for average, not the HR hitter.

If only Greenwell's knees didn't crap out on him.

1987 .328 40k .956OPS
1988 .325 38k .946OPS
1989 .308 44k
1990 .297 43k
1991 .300 35k

He always had more extra-base hits than strikeouts. 1992 was a lost year to injuries. He came back healthy in 1993.

1993 .315 46k 57 extra-base hits

Then it was 3 injury-plagued seasons and he was out of baseball at the age of 32. Career .303 121 OPS+ 433 extra-base hits 460 BBs 364 strikeouts all while playing Gold Glove-caliber defense with a cannon of an arm. If only...

Arthur

ahopkins

@ReggieCleveland said:

@ahopkins said:

@lahmejoon said:
It is rather comical, when I look back at my childhood heroes and my brother's, that every one of them ended up with either PED or drug issues. Mine were Canseco and McGwire. My brother's were Clemens and Strawberry.

Funny, I never gravitated toward Canseco or McGwire. I followed their careers, for sure. Mine were Clemens, Boggs, Mattingly, Greenwell. I liked -- and still like -- the hitter who hits for average, not the HR hitter.

If only Greenwell's knees didn't crap out on him.

1987 .328 40k .956OPS
1988 .325 38k .946OPS
1989 .308 44k
1990 .297 43k
1991 .300 35k

He always had more extra-base hits than strikeouts. 1992 was a lost year to injuries. He came back healthy in 1993.

1993 .315 46k 57 extra-base hits

Then it was 3 injury-plagued seasons and he was out of baseball at the age of 32. Career .303 121 OPS+ 433 extra-base hits 460 BBs 364 strikeouts all while playing Gold Glove-caliber defense with a cannon of an arm. If only...

Arthur

He will always be in my personal HOF. And no one on this planet will ever be able to convince me otherwise. I loved getting the sports section of the newspaper every day and seeing Greenwell go 2 for 4 or 3 for 4. I think his first 3 hits in the big leagues were HRs. I also love that he is the #1 card in the 1989 Donruss set. The day I get that card in a PSA 10 will be a very satisfying day for me.

ReggieCleveland

Robbed of the '88 AL MVP by that cheating bastard Canseco.

Arthur

ahopkins

@ReggieCleveland said:
Robbed of the '88 AL MVP by that cheating bastard Canseco.

Arthur

Gets my blood pressure up every time I think of it.

craig44

I remember wanting the 87 donruss greenwell with the red print variation. Was hot at the time

ReggieCleveland

A good friend of mine got me a binder full of about 300 Greenwell rookies for my birthday. He meant it as a joke but there were actually a few red line cards and some Topps blue/white scratch variations. They are the only red lines I've come across, so his joke gift turned out to be a legitimately awesome gift.

Arthur

ahopkins

^ I keep my eyes peeled for the red line in PSA 10. Haven't seen one. There's a raw on eBay right now.

craig44

That's the one. Always wanted one as a kid, and now it seems most have forgotten both the player and the variation

ahopkins

@craig44 said
now it seems most have forgotten both the player and the variation

That's okay by me. I like his card prices where they are.

ahopkins

@ReggieCleveland said:
Robbed of the '88 AL MVP by that cheating bastard Canseco.

Arthur

This might need to be purchased and "BALROGed."
https://ebay.com/itm/Mike-Greenwell-Jose-Canseco-71-Style-Reprint-1-1/283317729594?hash=item41f70d793a:g:AQ0AAOSwTxhcJC4u:rk:2:pf:0

88horsepower

It brings me joy to see you guys talking about Mike Greenwell. For me, Greenwell's 1987 Donruss The Rookies and 1988 Topps cards are my all time favorites of his and I just subbed an 87 Donruss The Rookies to PSA. Fingers crossed. I'd be happy with a 9, but I'm certainly aiming for a 10. I feel lucky just to have a PSA 9 of his 1988 Topps Tiffany.

With regards to the original post, I think that 80's cards are already starting to see some upward movement and I don't see it stopping. Nostalgia, plus the challenge of actually subbing a PSA 10 from that era, will keep the trajectory moving up. I think people vastly underestimate just how tough it is to pull a GEM MINT card from that era.

craig44

Another 1985 tiffany psa 10 Clemens has sold for $5100.00. Very high prices realized

craig44

1985 tiffany mcgwire psa10 just sold for $3952.00

softparade

Buy all the early to mid 80’s unopened you can now.