1927-S counterfeit Standing Liberty Quarters
burfle23
Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have posted some of the initial research on these in a couple of different venues looking for feedback. In one I asked “what’s wrong with this picture”, in another which of the imaged examples is “Live or Memorex”?
In both I suggested the participant look at these quickly as if you were a grader in a TPG pressed for time…
The initial “suspect” example came to light back in the fall of 2015 with a number of other potentially bad varieties in a submission package to a TPG, but specializing in early copper we didn’t get back to this one until much later.
This 1st image (courtesy NGC) is of the 1st suspect example- folks familiar with the series will probably see “what’s wrong with the picture” pretty quickly, but I won’t give it up just yet…
After considerable research and internet searching additional examples were found, and I developed the following time line for each:
The proposed damaged/ holed source example was found- comparison images of the 1st suspect example from the submission package and the holed source showing the repaired area and common circulation/ attribution marks:
And a known genuine example (image courtesy PCGS) comparison:
The other documented examples images (2 in TPG holders)- in order from the timeline:
From the images we nicknamed this one the “visor head” variety!
And we can speculate from these images which is “Live or Memorex” but can be confident at least one is a fake!
Comments
Ugh too early here ..... I am having a case of bf so I'll wait for experts to chime in
Thank you for sharing though
The first thing that I picked up is the profile of ms liberty s face looks wrong.
This is for the first photo posted in this thread.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Interesting!
My YouTube Channel
I nominate you for "KING" of the authenticators for all the discoveries you are making to help the TPGS's protect us from fakes. The quarter is an easy one for anyone to miss!
Yep looked like she was wearing a baseball cap or had her hair styled by one of the Thompson Twins....but then I saw you guys named it visor head, which also works.
I can honestly say that the head area gave me some pause. I waited to confirm my suspicions by reading what followed.
"Visor Head" is very appropriate.
Pete
Thanks @burfle23, I like seeing the diagnostics. It really helps in knowing what to lookout for.
Thanks Hemispherical; after reviewing several suspect varieties I started to see a pattern in many cases of the counterfeiters buying damaged genuine source coins to repair and make the dies from. That actually aided in the search, as I added holed examples to the investigation, looking for abnormalities on other examples in what would have to be the repaired area. The initial Coin Week article focused on these and can be found at https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/from-the-brink-to-the-dark-side-early-american-copper-struck-counterfeits-damaged-source-coins/ which included this particular variety- I was just recently able to take the time to broaden the research.
Very helpful information, thank you for sharing !!!
I think we could call this one, the "baseball cap variety." The trouble is the darn thing is sharply struck which means they are getting closer to the perfect counterfeit.
This Chinese menace is the biggest threat the hobby.
IMO, any counterfeit that gets into a slab is "perfect." At least until it is detected.
I wonder how many counterfeiters lurk on these boards to see how they can better ply their "craft".
Thanks OP! As were others, I was initially "put off" by Ms. Liberty's profile... baseball cap, visor cap... both work!!
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Good work!
This reminds me of a story. Decades ago a dealer known for selling Standing Liberty quarters had two errors in his case that I asked to look at. Both pieces appeared to have begun life as normal coins only to be then struck a second time off center. One of the normal strikes was a common late-date P-mint coin. The other was a common late-date mint marked coin. The two dates were not the same, but I cannot remember what they were, nor do I remember the mint mark.
The off-center strike on the P-mint coin showed the same date and lack of mint mark as the host coin. The off-center strike on the other coin, which had a different date and with a mint mark, was arranged in such a way that neither the date nor the mint mark of the off center strike showed.
The same die pair made both off center second strikes. This proved that the off center strikes were counterfeit strikes. I spent ten minutes trying to convince the dealer that the errors were counterfeit, but he refused to admit that he might possibly have made a mistake.
So if they would have started with an undamaged coin, spent the extra money and bought a great example with no known pictures, , then how much longer would the fakes remained undetected?
It seems like planning a $10 million bank heist in broad daylight involving 12 people and then buying a rusty 1991 Yugo for your only getaway vehicle.
Good point, this certainly helped in looking. But the best clues we had came from working with the TPGs after the 1st bad large cent was "discovered"- we were able to list a number of bad "varieties" and denominations that the sellers had submitted by following the cert numbers and images. We also were able to track connected internet sellers to similar bad coins and focus the search as well.
We certainly haven't detected all that is out there either...
In the left obverse field of the host coin (the one with the hole), there looks to be a small blob at about 8 o'clock, just below the space between the N and G of "IN GOD". Did this get removed in making new dies or ???
Note to self: Submit bogus coins using different names randomly interspersed with good coins at random times with random return addresses. Do not submit multiple bulk groups of fake coins using the same name repeatedly.
The quality of the current counterfeits is good enough to fool a large percentage of collectors and many dealers. In addition, many items that collectors would not expect to be counterfeited are now being counterfeited. This should set the alarm bells ringing in the ears of everyone involved in the hobby. There is trouble in River City, terrible trouble!
@burfle23... Thanks for a very interesting thread. The detailed images are extremely helpful.
Cheers, RickO
Already been done.
Thanks to Coin Week for publishing my article!
Agree! Getting the word out is necessary so everyone can be on the lookout and not spend good money on bad coins.
This is great detective work @burfle23. Keep sharing this work with all of us so we can spread the word! It seems like there is a known group of people who are doing this...
"But the best clues we had came from working with the TPGs after the 1st bad large cent was "discovered"- we were able to list a number of bad "varieties" and denominations that the sellers had submitted by following the cert numbers and images. We also were able to track connected internet sellers to similar bad coins and focus the search as well."
Do you know if the TPG's or the FTC is trying to pressure state or federal prosecutors to go after these counterfeiters? This seems organized from what I'm reading.
Thanks for posting this, I missed it when you originally posted it.
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Thank you 1630Boston.