I believe it would be easy to determine
those 'Replica' gold coins were not struck
from original Mint Dies - and that the 'new'
dies would have features that the original
Mint dies didn't have at time of origin.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
Actually, a good idea for authentication.... I do not have any dies, cancelled or otherwise, but if I did, I think I would use the service... Protection from rust and handling... and, if selling, gives the buyer confidence. Cheers, RickO
A friend of mine told me about this thread - I haven't checked in here in quite a while.
My two cents:
I have a complete set of all ten of the S$1 cancelled Olympic dies. If I decided to encapsulate the set, that's $500 that I'm certain I'll never see back. I'm not sure I can appreciate how a third party encapsulation will add that kind of value that, for me, will make this effort worthwhile. The Mint has already provided documentation regarding the authenticity of the dies and probably can still validate them since each die has its own unique serial number. This part of collecting is already thin because cancelled dies are so seldom seen.
Speaking of thin, I don't even want to think about how long it'll take me to complete my gold $5 dies - I have three of the six gold-type dies.
Part of the fun of collecting the cancelled dies is the heft of raw tool steel in my hand. No, I don't touch the surface where the coin blank would be struck. I am also involved in fine art photography and often have the opportunity to hold rare photograph prints in my hands. It's quite thrilling to be hold a George Lawrence aerial of post 1906 San Francisco or an Ansel Adams Moonrise print in your hands. If I think about a raw print versus the the framed print, this is a similar comparison to the encapsulation of the coin dies.
Of course, the print is much better preserved in a frame and museum glass. So I just contradicted myself! Oh well....
This was a part of numismatics untouched by certified plastic, alas no longer.
I'll duck now!
Successful BST: dmwjr, ike126, bajjerfan, morganman94, sonoradesertrat, 12voltman, duiguy, gsaguy, gsa1fan, martin, coinfame, zas107, bothuwui, gerard, kccoin, jtwitten, robcool, coinscoins, mountain_goat, and a few more.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
This was a part of numismatics untouched by certified plastic, alas no longer.
I'll duck now!
No need to duck, at least not on my account.
I had recalled that someone was working on a set of these Oly dies - it was obviously you. I am glad to hear your perspective.
I see the tubing of dies as a marketing "gimmick" more than anything. I don't mean that in a negative way - I am happy for NGC that they found another stream of revenue (or at least a temporary splash), and I am happy for FW for having a way to move more inventory.
BTW - are the dies loose in the tube, or are they secured with a gasket of some kind? If they are loose I expect that they will scratch the inside of the tube pretty quickly. I also expect that if they are loose (and maybe even if they aren't) that the tubes will get cracked or shattered in transit when shipped to buyers.
The dies are not coated or have anything done to them before encapsulation.
Depending on the size of the die, there are clear plastic washers that
go on the bottom of the tube, and the die place on them, so that it's
raised somewhat, making the die face closer to the top of the tube,
and easier to see than if it were lower. (hope that makes sense)
I'll have a selection of a few different types of these new NGC certified
dies at my Table # 828 at fun in three and a half weeks. Stop by to say
hi, and take a look at this new product (and some neat error coins too)
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
@scubafuel said:
You should consider carefully before you advocate confiscating other people’s things.
There is zero question that most uncancelled dies left the Mint without authorization. Policy requires cancellation. The case for these is weaker than the Langboard 1933 double eagles IMHO. The potential for unofficial restrikes (i.e. counterfeits) is too great. If the dies left unlawfully (i.e. theft by a rogue Mint employee) then it isn't an issue of confiscating other people's property so much as the government reclaiming its property.
False assumption. Over the years various mints have decided to sell old equipment (therefore authorized sale) and through screw ups have included in the sale items that they really shouldn't of sold (including uncancelled dies). So are you stating there is zero chance that the mint has ever screwed up? (because all the error coins, struck on feeder finger "coins" etc shows they do make mistakes). Policy might require cancellation but a legal bill of sale trumps policy as the property is no longer government property. Also if a mint official (with the authority to ignore policy) permits the sale of uncancelled dies then again the purchaser has lawful title.
@scubafuel said:
You should consider carefully before you advocate confiscating other people’s things.
There is zero question that most uncancelled dies left the Mint without authorization. Policy requires cancellation. The case for these is weaker than the Langboard 1933 double eagles IMHO. The potential for unofficial restrikes (i.e. counterfeits) is too great. If the dies left unlawfully (i.e. theft by a rogue Mint employee) then it isn't an issue of confiscating other people's property so much as the government reclaiming its property.
False assumption. Over the years various mints have decided to sell old equipment (therefore authorized sale) and through screw ups have included in the sale items that they really shouldn't of sold (including uncancelled dies). So are you stating there is zero chance that the mint has ever screwed up? (because all the error coins, struck on feeder finger "coins" etc shows they do make mistakes). Policy might require cancellation but a legal bill of sale trumps policy as the property is no longer government property. Also if a mint official (with the authority to ignore policy) permits the sale of uncancelled dies then again the purchaser has lawful title.
The keywords in your post are "legal" and "with authority." Since I do not believe either adjective has any application nor can rogue Mint employees trump law, I disagree with your entire premise. As for the Mint making errors, of course mistakes happen. However, for the same reasons you suggest that uncancelled dies should be legal (i.e. the dies could have been sold or released by the Mint) so should 1964-D Peace Dollars, 1974 aluminum cents, and the Langboards' 1933 double eagles. The treasury department contends that all of these are illegal and the latter was tested in court. Has anyone ever seen a bill of sale for an uncancelled die? Unlike coins which could have innocently and legally been released (if you believe the narratives in coin books), I don't see the same arguments holding up for the dies.
Comments
Neat!
I want one!
Sounds like a great idea until one of those hefty little puppies drops 5 1/2 ft onto your big toe.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Grading cancelled "Dies" yeah, something's dying around here.
I think slabbed coin dies perhaps interesting collectible but not something would want pay money for let alone store.
I believe it would be easy to determine
those 'Replica' gold coins were not struck
from original Mint Dies - and that the 'new'
dies would have features that the original
Mint dies didn't have at time of origin.
Actually, a good idea for authentication.... I do not have any dies, cancelled or otherwise, but if I did, I think I would use the service... Protection from rust and handling... and, if selling, gives the buyer confidence. Cheers, RickO
A friend of mine told me about this thread - I haven't checked in here in quite a while.
My two cents:
I have a complete set of all ten of the S$1 cancelled Olympic dies. If I decided to encapsulate the set, that's $500 that I'm certain I'll never see back. I'm not sure I can appreciate how a third party encapsulation will add that kind of value that, for me, will make this effort worthwhile. The Mint has already provided documentation regarding the authenticity of the dies and probably can still validate them since each die has its own unique serial number. This part of collecting is already thin because cancelled dies are so seldom seen.
Speaking of thin, I don't even want to think about how long it'll take me to complete my gold $5 dies - I have three of the six gold-type dies.
Part of the fun of collecting the cancelled dies is the heft of raw tool steel in my hand. No, I don't touch the surface where the coin blank would be struck. I am also involved in fine art photography and often have the opportunity to hold rare photograph prints in my hands. It's quite thrilling to be hold a George Lawrence aerial of post 1906 San Francisco or an Ansel Adams Moonrise print in your hands. If I think about a raw print versus the the framed print, this is a similar comparison to the encapsulation of the coin dies.
Of course, the print is much better preserved in a frame and museum glass. So I just contradicted myself! Oh well....
This was a part of numismatics untouched by certified plastic, alas no longer.
I'll duck now!
Are the dies prepped or coated in any way before being slabbed?
Well, just Love coins, period.
https://mikebyers.com/chile-5-pesos-die.html
NGC slabbed
No need to duck, at least not on my account.
I had recalled that someone was working on a set of these Oly dies - it was obviously you. I am glad to hear your perspective.
I see the tubing of dies as a marketing "gimmick" more than anything. I don't mean that in a negative way - I am happy for NGC that they found another stream of revenue (or at least a temporary splash), and I am happy for FW for having a way to move more inventory.
BTW - are the dies loose in the tube, or are they secured with a gasket of some kind? If they are loose I expect that they will scratch the inside of the tube pretty quickly. I also expect that if they are loose (and maybe even if they aren't) that the tubes will get cracked or shattered in transit when shipped to buyers.
To me, it looks like a rusty die was entirely sandblasted before it got NGC tubed.
Slabbed mint machinery is interesting> @Byers said:
The dies are not coated or have anything done to them before encapsulation.
Depending on the size of the die, there are clear plastic washers that
go on the bottom of the tube, and the die place on them, so that it's
raised somewhat, making the die face closer to the top of the tube,
and easier to see than if it were lower. (hope that makes sense)
I'll have a selection of a few different types of these new NGC certified
dies at my Table # 828 at fun in three and a half weeks. Stop by to say
hi, and take a look at this new product (and some neat error coins too)
The first thing that crossed my mind when I saw the picture was their choice of the spelling.
I can't take any credit or blame for that !
False assumption. Over the years various mints have decided to sell old equipment (therefore authorized sale) and through screw ups have included in the sale items that they really shouldn't of sold (including uncancelled dies). So are you stating there is zero chance that the mint has ever screwed up? (because all the error coins, struck on feeder finger "coins" etc shows they do make mistakes). Policy might require cancellation but a legal bill of sale trumps policy as the property is no longer government property. Also if a mint official (with the authority to ignore policy) permits the sale of uncancelled dies then again the purchaser has lawful title.
The keywords in your post are "legal" and "with authority." Since I do not believe either adjective has any application nor can rogue Mint employees trump law, I disagree with your entire premise. As for the Mint making errors, of course mistakes happen. However, for the same reasons you suggest that uncancelled dies should be legal (i.e. the dies could have been sold or released by the Mint) so should 1964-D Peace Dollars, 1974 aluminum cents, and the Langboards' 1933 double eagles. The treasury department contends that all of these are illegal and the latter was tested in court. Has anyone ever seen a bill of sale for an uncancelled die? Unlike coins which could have innocently and legally been released (if you believe the narratives in coin books), I don't see the same arguments holding up for the dies.
My comments were intended for U.S. issues only.