NGC Now Slabs Coin Dies - What Do You Think?

KellenCoin

I saw this announcement and I find it fascinating, but I am curious what your opinions are about NGC deciding to slab coin dies.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/7018/cancelled-dies/

CoinCast

Honestly its kinda silly. I have a bunch and wouldn't send them in. They are good paperweights!

JBK

Interesting but I am not sure what to think about it. They may have "jumped the shark" as the expression goes.

If authenticity is a concern, then there is clearly some value to it, but if it is only to provide a neat holder then I am not sure if it justifies the cost. The fee structure was very interesting, by the way.

grip

And the beat goes on.......J/S

cameonut2011

@CoinCast said:
Honestly its kinda silly. I have a bunch and wouldn't send them in. They are good paperweights!

+1

ChrisH821

Interesting

cameonut2011

P.S. Uncancelled dies should be illegal and confiscated. There are too many counterfeiters, including domestic operations, around as it is.

scubafuel

You should consider carefully before you advocate confiscating other people’s things.

COINS MAKE CENTS

I dont see the point to it personally but to each there own i guess

bronzemat

Shouldn't be a surprise since there is slabbed Toys, Shoes, Video Games, and even Cereal Boxes.

FredWeinberg

NGC came up with this idea because of the
numerous Defaced U.S. Mint Dies that I have.

I've submitted over 800 of my Defaced Dies
from 1993/94 for this new NGC program.

I think it's a great idea - the Die is encapsulated
in a ASE Tube - and this packaging shows ALL
sides of the die - top, bottom, all sides.

It also has a nice label with a description, and
the NGC hologram.

I've had these dies for years, and I can tell you
that there are many coin collectors, and novice
collectors who think having a piece of authentic
Mint machinery is cool -

I've also 'slabbed' my Olympic Coin Dies, some of
my 1968-S Torched Dies, and some S. F. Mint collars.

Stop by my table at FUN to see the different type of
dies that NGC is doing.

I fully understand that some collectors won't like it,
which is fine - but try to understand what the product
is, and how it can appeal to all types of collectors.

Thank you to all the folks at NGC who came up with
this unique packaging.

jwitten

I like it

airplanenut

Their British spelling of "cancelled" will bother me, so I'm out.

JBK

@FredWeinberg said:

I've submitted over 800 of my Defaced Dies
from 1993/94 for this new NGC program.

I wish you had warned us in advance - I might have been interested in a non-slabbed (tubed?) die or two, but the added cost to have it in plastic might be an unnecessary expense.

I think it's a great idea - the Die is encapsulated
in a ASE Tube - and this packaging shows ALL
sides of the die - top, bottom, all sides.

Well that is a relief - without the encapsulation all sides might not have been visible unless I turned the die around or something.

Wabbit2313

I think it's cool!

.

FredWeinberg

Yes, without the plastic, all you'd need to
do is turn the 'raw' die around.

I though it was nice that as part of the
encapsulation, you can still see all
sides, with the descriptive label and hologram.

Kinda like seeing 100% of the edge
on a coin in a holder - whoops, you can't.

RogerB

Authentication is the prime driver (plus $$$, of course). There's nothign stopping the Chinese from selling fake dies just as well as fake coins.

cameonut2011

@scubafuel said:
You should consider carefully before you advocate confiscating other people’s things.

There is zero question that most uncancelled dies left the Mint without authorization. Policy requires cancellation. The case for these is weaker than the Langboard 1933 double eagles IMHO. The potential for unofficial restrikes (i.e. counterfeits) is too great. If the dies left unlawfully (i.e. theft by a rogue Mint employee) then it isn't an issue of confiscating other people's property so much as the government reclaiming its property.

AlexinPA

It's okay by me bt I don't have any mint parts.

BillDugan1959

I believe I must have sold Mr. Weinberg one of those Olympic coin dies, and I was very grateful for his strong offer.

PerryHall

I have several cancelled US Mint dies and they are very cool. The dies are hardened carbon steel and will rust. These capsule will protect these dies from handling.

davewesen

I like it better than slabbing BU rolls of presidential dollars.

johnny9434

it looks pretty neat in that tube, I like it

CaptHenway

@RogerB said:
Authentication is the prime driver (plus $$$, of course). There's nothign stopping the Chinese from selling fake dies just as well as fake coins.

Now that they have been given the idea..........

CaptHenway

Will they certify Mr. Carr's dies after the dies have been punched with the word "COPY???"

Hemispherical

Encapsulated dies is interesting. What would happen if they received a non-canceled die that was purported to be from the US Mint?

CaptHenway

Years ago I handled a pair of Philippines coinage dies from the 1930's that were uncancelled. One side said "United States of America" right on it. Is that eligible?

FredWeinberg

Tom, Yes, that's eligible - they've already
certified a Philippine Uncancelled Die.

Anyone who is interested in seeing what they
look like is welcome to stop by my FUN Table #828
to see a small selection of Certified Dies of different
types.....also, an NGC Certified Collar (they're heavy,
so I'll ship only one of those!)

cameonut2011

@CaptHenway said:
Will they certify Mr. Carr's dies after the dies have been punched with the word "COPY???"

From the press release: "Counterfeit or altered dies will not be encapsulated and the full grading fee will apply" (emphasis mine).

JBK

@CaptHenway said:
Will they certify Mr. Carr's dies after the dies have been punched with the word "COPY???"

Put down that can of beans and leave the can opener in the drawer.

That is too deep a question to ponder right now - my head might explode trying to figure out the most logical answer. If the legality of the finished product is accepted - as it is by most people (not all) - what about the dies, especially the reverse dies that do not have the "fantasy" date which makes the finished product acceptable (to most people)?

I don't want to have to think about it. And in any case, I think DC destroys his old dies.

FredWeinberg

I believe it is very, or fairly easy, in the vast majority of cases,
to determine authentic Mint Dies vrs. Chop-Stick Dies.

I've handled uncanceled dies before - a 1925-SA
Sovereign Die was one of the coolest ones (20 yrs. ago)

There are uncanceled Coinage Dies in existence, including
the U.S.

CaptHenway

I once held an uncancelled Seated Liberty Dollar reverse die with an S Mint Mark. Made a five-figure offer in it so yeah, it was real.

Zoins

@FredWeinberg did you ask PCGS if they would do such a service?

It seems like the dies won’t be graded.

FredWeinberg

No, I haven't asked anyone at PCGS if they'd do the same.

I'll stick with NGC on this deal, as they came up with it for
me specifically, as a request to help empty a garage.

And yes, there's no reason to grade any Dies, imo.

1630Boston

.

cameonut2011

@JBK said:
what about the dies, especially the reverse dies that do not have the "fantasy" date which makes the finished product acceptable (to most people)?

They are false dies and illegal to make or possess.

DNADave

@cameonut2011 said:

@scubafuel said:
You should consider carefully before you advocate confiscating other people’s things.

There is zero question that most uncancelled dies left the Mint without authorization. Policy requires cancellation. The case for these is weaker than the Langboard 1933 double eagles IMHO. The potential for unofficial restrikes (i.e. counterfeits) is too great. If the dies left unlawfully (i.e. theft by a rogue Mint employee) then it isn't an issue of confiscating other people's property so much as the government reclaiming its property.

I'm guessing more dime and cent dies were smuggled out than dollar sized dies

I'll just leave it at that.

amwldcoin

Can't use it if it's entombed in a plastic tube!

dcarr

@JBK said:

@CaptHenway said:
Will they certify Mr. Carr's dies after the dies have been punched with the word "COPY???"

Put down that can of beans and leave the can opener in the drawer.

That is too deep a question to ponder right now - my head might explode trying to figure out the most logical answer. If the legality of the finished product is accepted - as it is by most people (not all) - what about the dies, especially the reverse dies that do not have the "fantasy" date which makes the finished product acceptable (to most people)?

I don't want to have to think about it. And in any case, I think DC destroys his old dies.

Once I am done with a die I grind the face off. There are a couple older dies that I have kept for display purposes - but those are not over-strike dies (they are dies with my own original design).

Regulated

I wish that we still had the original 1855 Kellogg $50 dies.

MrEureka

The best die I've had was for the obverse of an 1820 Half Eagle. It's in the ANA Museum now, so it probably won't get slabbed.

I have some early Guatemalan (C.A.R.) dies in my collection. I don't really know how to display them and protect them. If I thought the NGC slabs would do the trick, I'd probably slab them. But it would take some convincing.

Zoins

@FredWeinberg said:
No, I haven't asked anyone at PCGS if they'd do the same.

I'll stick with NGC on this deal, as they came up with it for
me specifically, as a request to help empty a garage.

And yes, there's no reason to grade any Dies, imo.

I can actually see wanting to get dies graded, especially the Olympic ones where they exist in some quantity.

dcarr

@cameonut2011 said:

@JBK said:
what about the dies, especially the reverse dies that do not have the "fantasy" date which makes the finished product acceptable (to most people)?

They are false dies and illegal to make or possess.

I see ads for these things (or at least the Indian Head one) on TV and elsewhere:

What about the dies used to make them ?

Byers

https://mikebyers.com/mercury-dime-die-pair.html

NGC slabbed

Zoins

@Regulated said:
I wish that we still had the original 1855 Kellogg $50 dies.

Those are amazing. I’m glad to have the Ron Landis transfer dies.

Byers

https://mikebyers.com/martha-washington-obverse-die.html

NGC slabbed

Zoins

@Byers said:
https://mikebyers.com/martha-washington-obverse-die.html

NGC slabbed

Good to know. I’ve been following that but didn’t know it was slabbed.

JBK

@Byers said:
NGC slabbed

Don't you mean "tubed"?

JBK

@dcarr said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@JBK said:
what about the dies, especially the reverse dies that do not have the "fantasy" date which makes the finished product acceptable (to most people)?

They are false dies and illegal to make or possess.

I see ads for these things (or at least the Indian Head one) on TV and elsewhere:

What about the dies used to make them ?

Excellent point. I knew this would turn into a nightmare trying to make sense of it all.

The HPA requires that a copy of a coin be stamped COPY. As far as I know the law says it must be stamped and not included as part of the die (and it must be incuse on the coin), which means the die will be a close or exact facsimile of the original die. And, in any case, the COPY only needs to be on one side, so in any scenario there would be one side that is left in original form.

I am not sure the powers that be who wrote the law figured out that in order to make a replica coin that will be stamped COPY there must be replica dies that are not so marked.

cameonut2011

@dcarr said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@JBK said:
what about the dies, especially the reverse dies that do not have the "fantasy" date which makes the finished product acceptable (to most people)?

They are false dies and illegal to make or possess.

I see ads for these things (or at least the Indian Head one) on TV and elsewhere:

What about the dies used to make them ?

Your point? The fact that everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right. There are plenty of people that cheat on their taxes and never are caught or audited. Play Russian Roulette if you wish.

cameonut2011

@JBK said:

@dcarr said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@JBK said:
what about the dies, especially the reverse dies that do not have the "fantasy" date which makes the finished product acceptable (to most people)?

They are false dies and illegal to make or possess.

I see ads for these things (or at least the Indian Head one) on TV and elsewhere:

What about the dies used to make them ?

Excellent point. I knew this would turn into a nightmare trying to make sense of it all.

The HPA requires that a copy of a coin be stamped COPY. As far as I know the law says it must be stamped and not included as part of the die (and it must be incuse on the coin), which means the die will be a close or exact facsimile of the original die. And, in any case, the COPY only needs to be on one side, so in any scenario there would be one side that is left in original form.

I am not sure the powers that be who wrote the law figured out that in order to make a replica coin that will be stamped COPY there must be replica dies that are not so marked.

Yes, it is a nightmare and is an example of poorly crafted legislation. Nevertheless, the HPA specifically states that it is not intended to substitute or limit existing law. The other statute clearly applies.