1964 SMS Kennedy Half Dollar identification
collectorofcoins91
Posts: 6 ✭
I am curious to know if PCGS recognizes the 4 "teardrop" die marker for the 1964 SMS/SP Kennedy Half Dollar. There is a description of this die marker on PCGS description for the coin http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/coin/detail/6844 , but not on NGC's description for the same coin https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/kennedy-half-dollars-pscid-44/1964-50c-sp-coinid-76045 .
Basically, I sent in the coin with the 4 die marker to NGC and it came back designated/graded MS65 regular business strike. I'm curious if I can have it redesignated/graded if PCGS recognizes the 4 die marker?
Best Answer
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Hemispherical
Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
Call before sending in.
You can reach the PCGS customer service department Monday - Friday 7:00am - 5:00pm Pacific Time.
In the United States call toll free at 800-447-8848. Outside the United States call 949-833-0600.
2
Answers
Have you got a picture of your coin? If not, how would you characterize the finish?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Well, you have to show us some photos so we can assist you in grading it.
Always buying nice toned coins! Searching for a low grade 1873 Arrows DDO Dime and 1842-O Small Date Quarter.
I was told through online forums that it wasn't an SMS/SP. I wanted to see by NGC because of the finish and die marker, and they returned it graded MS65 business strike, but now I'm considering sending it to PCGS. Here's the coin I had graded. https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4711781-006/65/
These usually have a hard swept appearance. The description that stuck in my mind when I first heard it was that these coins looked like they had been struck like a proof, but with businesss die that had been intentionally roughed up. I did some digging years ago and bought the Merkin estate auction catalog. The catalog description of the sets mentions one Kennedy has an obverse fingerprint. Otherwise, the description is not unusual. I believe this may be the coin that is often photographed. Heritage has a nice pic. My memory of these is that Jess Lipka bought them and brought them to market?? I have always thought these interesting.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Here are two closeups of the 4 die marker.
I don't see anything but an Unc. Kennedy.
Unc with reed marks, etc. Not a very early strike from new dies, and not the phony "SMS" nonsense.
PS: It's not "MS-65" - not with those wacks on the bust.
Nice pics!! I'm no expert on these, but your pics are unusually nice. What's your setup?
AND...totally... WELCOME to your best quest for info!!
@collectorofcoins91.... Welcome aboard... I do see a very tiny mark hanging off the crosslet of the 4... Is that the identifying mark?? Cheers, RickO
More close up zoomed in pictures of the 4 and the entire obverse of the coin please.
The die polishing looks Very heavy on your example for such a short run. They are described as having heavy polish, but the only example photo I can find shows a different pattern of polish marks. Or maybe it’s the photo. How many dies could have been used on a small mintage coin like this? Those Reeded edge contact marks could only have come from terrible handling of such a rare coin, if it is an sms.
Here are screenshots of the real deal from coins facts.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Correct, @ricko
@collectorofcoins91 @Aspie_Rocco @RogerB
I found one tonight that has the dangly four but it also looks like a business strike. What say yall?
I see a small similarity, but not an exact match. With only 12 recognized examples of this coin, I would expect the chances of finding a real 1964 SMS to be extremely small, in addition, such an extreme rarity would most likely not find its way into circulation. I imagine anyone lucky or wealthy enough to have owned an original actual SMS would keep it protected/separated/ identified. With a mintage of over 273.3 million 64 and approximately? 12 SMS
The chances of finding one would go beyond the 1 in 22,775,000 because these coins were not mixed into circulation.
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I highly doubt ANYONE will ever find an 64 SMS while roll searching. It just does not seem rationally practical or possible in my opinion.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
If you scroll to the explanation at the bottom of the 1964 SMS Half PCGS CoinFacts page, you'll see that it is extremely unlikely that a 64 SMS will be found in circulation.
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/coin/detail/6844
From CoinFacts
_These 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half’s were first noticed in 1993 when they appeared in a Stacks auction. Apparently, the coins originated from Lester Merkin **who was a well known coin dealer. His collection was later consigned to Stacks. It **is also believed that Lester Merkin initially acquired the coins from a Mint employee or Eva Adams who was former Director of the U.S. Mint.__
Ron Guth: One of the interesting diagnostic features of the Specimen Strike 1964 Half Dollars is a small, raised defect that appears to hang from the crosslet of the 4. This defect has been seen on all examples except one. In an admittedly rare hypothetical situation where one of these remarkable coins was spent, the defect can be used to confirm the original status of the coin.
So, if you managed to have a RARE HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION and found one in circulation, the defect on the 4 can be used as a die marker. Unfortunately, the mark on your coin doesn't match it. I would stick to buying Lotto tickets. I think the odds are significantly better of winning the jackpot than it is to find a 64 SMS in circulation
There are no "Specimen" coins for 1964. Trial pieces were made along with a test run of halves, but these were all destroyed just like test pieces for other new designs and die changes. (See Jefferson nickel files for a very clear example)
Early strikes from new dies will look a little different than later pieces, just at late strikes will differ from average; but that is part of normal die life and happens for every die.
Enjoy the fantasy.
Tis the mystery and this one would have a been a big mystery coming from a P mint set. But when I saw that, you agree I had to ask
So generally speaking, not sms, but all coins minted when the dies were new will have a better look and grade? Because, I have purchased quite a few sets and it seems some are really great looking and most are average or worse.
@Oldhoopster I'm still buying those too
Thanks for the moral support, lol
RE: "So generally speaking, not sms, but all coins minted when the dies were new will have a better look and grade? Because, I have purchased quite a few sets and it seems some are really great looking and most are average or worse."
It's not about a "grade."
A new die is at it's best for detail. The first few hundred impressions will normally be better looking than later ones. Smooth fields, little die abrasion, few defects, sharp details, etc. As the die is used, metal slowly moves and created the so-called "luster" collectors like. But ad the die ages, the metal movement creates blurring of design - first details and then larger features. A very late stage result is called "starburst" where metal radiated from the center to edge.
In general, yes, new dies will produce better looking coins than ones that have been in use for a while. The coins being touted as "1964 SMS" are nothing more than early strikes from new dies. Examples of these are in the Smithsonian collection, correctly labeled as early strike coins donated by various Mint directors each year.
We find very few of these true "first struck" coins because they are a very tiny percent of all the coins made for any specific year and mint.
(FYI. Legitimate Special Mint Set (SMS) coins sold to collectors in 1965-1967 were made with normal dies used on a toggle press. The dies were retired after a few thousand coins, so the quality and detail are generally better than coins from a bank roll. Through all three years, mint employees tried to improve the appearance of SMS coins by polishing the dies. A few 1967 coins were made with nicely polished dies and are almost of accepted "proof" quality, but struck on a normal press.)
A "Specimen" coin implies that something unusual and special was done to create the piece and that there was a special occasion for this product. There is no documentation to support those requirements for 1964.
Hope this helps with the confusion.
I wish I could figure this out
I’ve never seen a set of design in between the reeded area and the rim on a coin. No I’m not going to show the year or the coin. So no assumption are placed. But I’m curious about these
Has anyone ever seen these on a coin
Also for the record it’s all the way around and all the way around on the reverse side also
Sorry, but it was damaged after it left the mint. Maybe it was in a keychain or souvenir holder
There is nothing that I know of in the minting process would leave those marks. It isn't from the die or collar.
For the other record that coin is freshly out of a mint pack still have the pictures
Along with the other coins
Exactly what are you looking for on the 4?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Take that coin times two we’ll kind it is a hit and miss on the other one It’s not as sharp nor all the way around on either side of it. It’s as if it’s not fully struck or filled in with metal from being struck
One of these days I'll send mine in for grading just to put the mystery to bed. I haven't yet because I know the grade would struggle to get past 65.
Callthemout you need to start a new thread for this to get the right attention
a good subject line will help, too. perhaps putting "Error?" in the subject
I guess so. I was asking if anyone ever seen this detail. Nothing to do with the 4 I’m just guessing that the only way a coin would have that sharp of detail on the edge is if was number one or two off a set of dies. I do own two coins with this on it one is all the way around on obverse and reverse other one is in places one obverse and reverse. I know it can’t be an error cause two coins have them. Looked for hours at die pictures and can’t find any die pictures that close
I moved it to question and answer posting
i would keep it in this forum, the us coin forum. very few people go to the Q&A forum
Hello, I have same exact coin with those marks that look like issue with collar... Heres the hit..
Look at all those PCGS graded slab SMS1964, Blow up images on your laptop or computer, take a magnifying glass or loop, go along edge of those graded coins.... What do you see??? Ahhhhhhh..... they are on them. I posted mine on other forums and got laughed out... I just exposed the big secret. Find those marks and other marks on that date... Dangle can or cannot be there... the graded 69 does Not have a dangle.... Coin should be relatively flat, have a surface like a peace dollar vam 1H, Satin look. I believe they sandblasted those dies and these are business dies also sanded somehow...
I have looked at the one I have that has those strange marks on reeded area... About 98 % match overall... every little mark under stars, gouge looking swirl polish marks... all that... But no... It don't have proper surfaces... The one that was sold Stacks matches.... other images heritage and pcgs dont. I have another that I just posted, it has a Denver Look... sandpaper, tiny bumps and all... Never seen one like it.... other than SMS test coin surfaces... Maybe one is the deal, other was same dies with different blanks....???
That story that only 13 or now 50 sets... Baloney.
I have 3 sms cents with lines, trilobites match with swirl polish on reverse same... 2 quarters, 1 dime, and maybe 1 half yet to be 100% verified. Nickel is tough too... Looks like maybe but quality not there... Others are definite. Got them out of sets like they originally were discovered in... One cent was out of a D mint set for a bank put together by the mint. 1 quarter from mint gift store.... So, yes... you can find in circulation.... Cheaper to mix with rest and dispose than melt.... My guess, and a good one.
And the search continues!!
I'm very confused.
Here is a SP67+ SMS for sale currently on GC.
Opening bid: 90K.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
lots of stuff that doesn't make sense
no dangle? no SMS
These are 3 pics of the same 1964 Kennedy coin …doubt it’s a dangled 4 since chances are so rare