The difference between NT and AT, to my understanding is "Intent".
Accepting the above definition as truth leads one down a path whose destination is "Reasonable minds will differ" as to what facts dictate a finding of Intent being present (thus AT) and what facts dictate a finding of Intent not being present (thus NT).
Case in point. In 1963 when I was seven years old and a new collector the father of a friend of mine gave me two blast white 1943D Unc nickels. I put both of them in Whitman albums. My placing them in Whitman albums was Intentional on my part and I may have even been aware the coins placed in albums change color.
Fast forward 40 years to 2003. I returned to the hobby as an adult, obtained my childhood collection from my parents safe deposit box, looked at the two nickels and found two lovely pastel toned coins.
These two nickels are lovely. I think they are NT. Some in the hobby may think they are AT.
Seeing these two nickels side by side with two other nickels of the same date and mintmark that were in an OGP roll the sat in a shoe box in a closet in a 100 year old falling down house in Galveston, Texas that are a splotchy brown color causes one to think twice about AT v. NT.
NT does not always mean high quality and eye appeal. Many times it means ugly.
The NT v. AT debate will exist as long as people exist and collect.
Imagine the outcry if someone broke into the hallowed halls of our beloved Smithsonian or Metropolitan Museum of Art and willfully destroyed sacred historical relics or pieces of art.
LOL, no imagination necessary. Past "curators" at the Smithsonian already did it to much OUR collection.
As for the "doctors"... IMO, not all alterations are bad. I believe many folks have improved the coins they "work on." I sure would like to sign the before and after images of my conservation work! What I'll add is I'd hate to see a pig slaughtered but I love bacon!
I suppose one cannot write a letter to a very prominent dealer and have specifics before an auction. One must follow etiquette even when discussing possibly doctored coins. This person must do a follow up with a detailed in-hand analysis and documented proof of at least a few of the claims on these coins. Otherwise the sentiment is noteworthy but the substance is lacking.
Excellent topic. Stop the dipsits and doctors, keep coins authentic. I appreciate that those with some clout speak out against all the tampering going on. I really hope the younger generations of collectors embrace the “DO NOT CLEAN COINS!!!” mentality.
The only good dip is dairy based or salsa, cleaning is for living/ working spaces and cars, doctors should work on bodies and minds.
@bidask said:
I think Heritage and Stacks and Goldbergs should not accept consignments that they deem have altered surfaces regardless of what TP slab it may be in .
They have plenty of good numismatists on their staff who could easily do this .
I’m sure a new auction venue would pop up featuring rejects.
Then they can say bye, bye to many consignors and probably more than half of their respective businesses.
look, this was a letter written by a collector with a huge passion. I know his series and I know what he was looking at. so do not knock him nosy busy bodies!
I elected to publish his letter because I think it might put a spark in a few collectors about this problem-not make his views a problem. Only here in this snake pit. So far, I have seen very little constructive comments.
The ONLY hing to be debated about this subject-how to stop coin doctors.
As a physician, I hate the negative connotation of "coin doctor". In broad terms, most people in medicine are there for reasons that go beyond financial gain. Despite the nastiness of the current healthcare business environment, the profession is still a noble one that provides improved quantity and quality of life. This is the opposite of the shenanigans that so-called "coin doctors" are pulling in the name of making a quick buck. The word "doctor" comes from old Latin and French and means teacher or expert. The people ruining coins are only expert at defrauding others and very seldom teach anything.
Can't we find a better name? Coin charlatan comes to mind.
From a collector's perspective, there seems to be very little "legal" definition of of coin restoration and coin doctoring from the ANA. However, when dealers start making this delineation, I find dealers are conflicted in two significant ways. When selling a coin to a dealer many will low ball the offer saying the coin has been "messed with". And then will turn around on a "dime" and profess to a buyer that the coin has original skin.
There is a very fine line between coin restoration services offered by PCGS and NGC and coin "doctors" that also improve the appearance of a coin. And the reality is that all of the coins in the FUN auction are reasonably assumed to be TPG graded coins. And the reality is that the TPG graders do set the standards (based upon market acceptability) and that is the standard in this market, not a significant dealer opinion.
Original Skin sounds to me too much like Original Sin.
@Proofmorgan said:
I would think the TPGs have the capability to completely map a Coins surface like a fingerprint. Identifying all contact and unique features. Gold Shield??? That way dipped or retoned coins will be identified by their surface characteristics and be rejected.
@BillJones said:
If “the blue wall” were to be erected, a lot of potential inventory and auction lots would be eliminated. Perhaps there could be an “original coin only” (If you can spot “original” with great consistency.) auction house, but I doubt that it would last very long. Many consignors would lose patience, and the available items would too restricted.
I think it would be good for the coin community to be more “honest” with itself. Classic cars with restoration are cherished and the restoration is documented in detail. Why should coins about pretending a coin hasn’t been modified?
The cars are usually advertised as being restored; the coins not so much.
@Proofmorgan said:
I would think the TPGs have the capability to completely map a Coins surface like a fingerprint. Identifying all contact and unique features. Gold Shield??? That way dipped or retoned coins will be identified by their surface characteristics and be rejected.
Wasn't that part of the now defunct secure plus tier along with the sniffer?
The sniffer identified chemical substances added to a coin's surface; the secure service was about a coin's topological features; sort of like a relief map.
@BryceM said:
As a physician, I hate the negative connotation of "coin doctor". In broad terms, most people in medicine are there for reasons that go beyond financial gain. Despite the nastiness of the current healthcare business environment, the profession is still a noble one that provides improved quantity and quality of life. This is the opposite of the shenanigans that so-called "coin doctors" are pulling in the name of making a quick buck. The word "doctor" comes from old Latin and French and means teacher or expert. The people ruining coins are only expert at defrauding others and very seldom teach anything.
Can't we find a better name? Coin charlatan comes to mind.
@BillJones said:
If “the blue wall” were to be erected, a lot of potential inventory and auction lots would be eliminated. Perhaps there could be an “original coin only” (If you can spot “original” with great consistency.) auction house, but I doubt that it would last very long. Many consignors would lose patience, and the available items would too restricted.
I think it would be good for the coin community to be more “honest” with itself. Classic cars with restoration are cherished and the restoration is documented in detail. Why should coins about pretending a coin hasn’t been modified?
The cars are usually advertised as being restored; the coins not so much.
Most every old car has been restored to some point. I remember in the Harrras Los Vegas car museum that they made a big deal out of a 1948 Cadillac that still had the original paint and seat covers. It had been owned by a couple of old maid sisters who had stored it in a garage. That is a most unusual car, it was not flashy at all, which is what most owners want.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The ONLY hing to be debated about this subject-how to stop coin doctors.
A great topic. Probably will never really stop them. Education, experience, take advantage of more experienced eyes, use some common sense as a buyer. This forum has helped me (e.g. the use of putty was news to me as a returning collector).
The ONLY hing to be debated about this subject-how to stop coin doctors.
A great topic. Probably will never really stop them.
Agree there doesn't seem to be a way to stop them so far. There seems to be about half a dozen top doctors. They are well known in the industry. Year after year goes by and it seems like nothing can be done to stop them.
Absent stopping them, which doesn't seem to be possible, my thought has been to make them famous so they can be, and would like to be, identified by provenance.
The simple truth is that $$$ talks and BS walks.
If the "doctors" did not gain financially from their operations (pun intended), then those operations would cease.
If the real question is "How to Stop Coin Doctors", I'll give you the best answer right here.
QUIT doing business with them. Don't allow their coins in the auctions and do not allow them to bid. Simple as that.
It's not the PNG's job to take care of coin doctoring, it's PCGS and NGC. If they allow it, that is the problem.
@specialist said:
look, this was a letter written by a collector with a huge passion. I know his series and I know what he was looking at. so do not knock him nosy busy bodies!
I elected to publish his letter because I think it might put a spark in a few collectors about this problem-not make his views a problem. Only here in this snake pit. So far, I have seen very little constructive comments.
The ONLY hing to be debated about this subject-how to stop coin doctors.
We could cut their hand off for the first offense but this is a slippery slope. It all depends on the definition, intention, and results of doctoring. Otherwise there would be a lot of one-handed dealers/collectors.
I'm assuming that both your hands would stay attached!
If you like it, you buy it. If you don’t, you don’t.
For very old coins “originality” is both rare and controversial.
If you have a gem Capped Bust Half that's truly original, I'd like to see it. I've looked at these coins for the better part of fifteen years, and have yet to see one that fits the bill.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
If you like it, you buy it. If you don’t, you don’t.
For very old coins “originality” is both rare and controversial.
If you have a gem Capped Bust Half that's truly original, I'd like to see it. I've looked at these coins for the better part of fifteen years, and have yet to see one that fits the bill.
They are out there and I don't even look for them. Maybe, all the ones I've seen in the past are no longer original and that would confirm your fifteen year search.
@BryceM said:
As a physician, I hate the negative connotation of "coin doctor". In broad terms, most people in medicine are there for reasons that go beyond financial gain. Despite the nastiness of the current healthcare business environment, the profession is still a noble one that provides improved quantity and quality of life. This is the opposite of the shenanigans that so-called "coin doctors" are pulling in the name of making a quick buck. The word "doctor" comes from old Latin and French and means teacher or expert. The people ruining coins are only expert at defrauding others and very seldom teach anything.
Can't we find a better name? Coin charlatan comes to mind.
If you like it, you buy it. If you don’t, you don’t.
For very old coins “originality” is both rare and controversial.
If you have a gem Capped Bust Half that's truly original, I'd like to see it. I've looked at these coins for the better part of fifteen years, and have yet to see one that fits the bill.
@Elcontador said: "If you have a gem Capped Bust Half that's truly original, I'd like to see it. I've looked at these coins for the better part of fifteen years, and have yet to see one that fits the bill."
If you like it, you buy it. If you don’t, you don’t.
For very old coins “originality” is both rare and controversial.
If you have a gem Capped Bust Half that's truly original, I'd like to see it. I've looked at these coins for the better part of fifteen years, and have yet to see one that fits the bill.
Close enough?
Nice coin, but too dark on the cheek and other high points. The standard is “Gem,” and that one just falls short. The darkness is a reflection of old time envelope storage.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Agree with Bill Jones's comments. Am I the only one to notice a large fingerprint on the viewer's left side of the reverse?
It's nicer than most of the series I've seen, in all candor.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
200 year old silver that hasn't been messed with is going to vary from medium grey - Black with luster beaming through! I'm sure there is the odd coin out but there is no way IMHO an untouched 200 year old coin remains white!
The only late 19th-20th century coins other than the odd roll here and there that remain white IMHO are the bags and bags of Morgan Dollars that were released in the 60's.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
I wonder which coins the letter writer was looking at in the up coming Heritage auction ?
There were very few copper coins with CAC stickers
That was my guess too. If the photos are anywhere close to accurate, there is a lot of altered copper up for sale in the coming Heritage sale IMHO.
Comments
The difference between NT and AT, to my understanding is "Intent".
Accepting the above definition as truth leads one down a path whose destination is "Reasonable minds will differ" as to what facts dictate a finding of Intent being present (thus AT) and what facts dictate a finding of Intent not being present (thus NT).
Case in point. In 1963 when I was seven years old and a new collector the father of a friend of mine gave me two blast white 1943D Unc nickels. I put both of them in Whitman albums. My placing them in Whitman albums was Intentional on my part and I may have even been aware the coins placed in albums change color.
Fast forward 40 years to 2003. I returned to the hobby as an adult, obtained my childhood collection from my parents safe deposit box, looked at the two nickels and found two lovely pastel toned coins.
These two nickels are lovely. I think they are NT. Some in the hobby may think they are AT.
Seeing these two nickels side by side with two other nickels of the same date and mintmark that were in an OGP roll the sat in a shoe box in a closet in a 100 year old falling down house in Galveston, Texas that are a splotchy brown color causes one to think twice about AT v. NT.
NT does not always mean high quality and eye appeal. Many times it means ugly.
The NT v. AT debate will exist as long as people exist and collect.
Imagine the outcry if someone broke into the hallowed halls of our beloved Smithsonian or Metropolitan Museum of Art and willfully destroyed sacred historical relics or pieces of art.
LOL, no imagination necessary. Past "curators" at the Smithsonian already did it to much OUR collection.
As for the "doctors"... IMO, not all alterations are bad. I believe many folks have improved the coins they "work on." I sure would like to sign the before and after images of my conservation work! What I'll add is I'd hate to see a pig slaughtered but I love bacon!
Very insightful letter. All the bases were covered in the letter. Couldn't add anything meaningful. Brilliant.
I suppose one cannot write a letter to a very prominent dealer and have specifics before an auction. One must follow etiquette even when discussing possibly doctored coins. This person must do a follow up with a detailed in-hand analysis and documented proof of at least a few of the claims on these coins. Otherwise the sentiment is noteworthy but the substance is lacking.
Excellent topic. Stop the dipsits and doctors, keep coins authentic. I appreciate that those with some clout speak out against all the tampering going on. I really hope the younger generations of collectors embrace the “DO NOT CLEAN COINS!!!” mentality.
The only good dip is dairy based or salsa, cleaning is for living/ working spaces and cars, doctors should work on bodies and minds.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Then they can say bye, bye to many consignors and probably more than half of their respective businesses.
look, this was a letter written by a collector with a huge passion. I know his series and I know what he was looking at. so do not knock him nosy busy bodies!
I elected to publish his letter because I think it might put a spark in a few collectors about this problem-not make his views a problem. Only here in this snake pit. So far, I have seen very little constructive comments.
The ONLY hing to be debated about this subject-how to stop coin doctors.
As a physician, I hate the negative connotation of "coin doctor". In broad terms, most people in medicine are there for reasons that go beyond financial gain. Despite the nastiness of the current healthcare business environment, the profession is still a noble one that provides improved quantity and quality of life. This is the opposite of the shenanigans that so-called "coin doctors" are pulling in the name of making a quick buck. The word "doctor" comes from old Latin and French and means teacher or expert. The people ruining coins are only expert at defrauding others and very seldom teach anything.
Can't we find a better name? Coin charlatan comes to mind.
From a collector's perspective, there seems to be very little "legal" definition of of coin restoration and coin doctoring from the ANA. However, when dealers start making this delineation, I find dealers are conflicted in two significant ways. When selling a coin to a dealer many will low ball the offer saying the coin has been "messed with". And then will turn around on a "dime" and profess to a buyer that the coin has original skin.
There is a very fine line between coin restoration services offered by PCGS and NGC and coin "doctors" that also improve the appearance of a coin. And the reality is that all of the coins in the FUN auction are reasonably assumed to be TPG graded coins. And the reality is that the TPG graders do set the standards (based upon market acceptability) and that is the standard in this market, not a significant dealer opinion.
Original Skin sounds to me too much like Original Sin.
OINK
That is exactly what the secure service entails.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
The cars are usually advertised as being restored; the coins not so much.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
The sniffer identified chemical substances added to a coin's surface; the secure service was about a coin's topological features; sort of like a relief map.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
coin molester
Most every old car has been restored to some point. I remember in the Harrras Los Vegas car museum that they made a big deal out of a 1948 Cadillac that still had the original paint and seat covers. It had been owned by a couple of old maid sisters who had stored it in a garage. That is a most unusual car, it was not flashy at all, which is what most owners want.
A great topic. Probably will never really stop them. Education, experience, take advantage of more experienced eyes, use some common sense as a buyer. This forum has helped me (e.g. the use of putty was news to me as a returning collector).
Agree there doesn't seem to be a way to stop them so far. There seems to be about half a dozen top doctors. They are well known in the industry. Year after year goes by and it seems like nothing can be done to stop them.
Absent stopping them, which doesn't seem to be possible, my thought has been to make them famous so they can be, and would like to be, identified by provenance.
The simple truth is that $$$ talks and BS walks.
If the "doctors" did not gain financially from their operations (pun intended), then those operations would cease.
If the real question is "How to Stop Coin Doctors", I'll give you the best answer right here.
QUIT doing business with them. Don't allow their coins in the auctions and do not allow them to bid. Simple as that.
It's not the PNG's job to take care of coin doctoring, it's PCGS and NGC. If they allow it, that is the problem.
We could cut their hand off for the first offense but this is a slippery slope. It all depends on the definition, intention, and results of doctoring. Otherwise there would be a lot of one-handed dealers/collectors.
I'm assuming that both your hands would stay attached!
I for one, don't buy them. But who ever listens to me?
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
If you like it, you buy it. If you don’t, you don’t.
If you have a gem Capped Bust Half that's truly original, I'd like to see it. I've looked at these coins for the better part of fifteen years, and have yet to see one that fits the bill.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
They are out there and I don't even look for them. Maybe, all the ones I've seen in the past are no longer original and that would confirm your fifteen year search.
Hmm. I was thinking of "coin quack."
Coin specialists.
Coin hacks!
Close enough?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Not mine.
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
@Elcontador said: "If you have a gem Capped Bust Half that's truly original, I'd like to see it. I've looked at these coins for the better part of fifteen years, and have yet to see one that fits the bill."
@Nic replied: "Close enough?"
Nope. There is no "close" when writing about an original gem Uncirculated coin.
Great coin though, and it looks original in the image.
I don't think so. Try again.
"Coin Doctor" has been knocked off by the "PC Police?" Wonder how the cops feel about that.
Laura is going to kill you for poisoning her moniker.
Dip em all I say. Blast white just like they were suppose to be. Nothing ruins the day quicker than fugly toned silvers.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Nice coin, but too dark on the cheek and other high points. The standard is “Gem,” and that one just falls short. The darkness is a reflection of old time envelope storage.
UHFs coin maybe. Nic’s, not a chance.
How about “coin Mechanic”?
I imagine some guy covered in greasy overalls wrenching on some beater.
My forebears knew a pristine coin
That mortal man would ne’re purloin
‘til doctors did their art enjoin
And knee said forebears in the groin.
Burma Shave
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Agree with Bill Jones's comments. Am I the only one to notice a large fingerprint on the viewer's left side of the reverse?
It's nicer than most of the series I've seen, in all candor.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
200 year old silver that hasn't been messed with is going to vary from medium grey - Black with luster beaming through! I'm sure there is the odd coin out but there is no way IMHO an untouched 200 year old coin remains white!
The only late 19th-20th century coins other than the odd roll here and there that remain white IMHO are the bags and bags of Morgan Dollars that were released in the 60's.
coin diddlers!!!
I wonder which coins the letter writer was looking at in the up coming Heritage auction ?
There were very few copper coins with CAC stickers
No Stewart, He is not a copper collector. He turns more colors then all the retoned PR Indians when he sees any copper.......
That was my guess too. If the photos are anywhere close to accurate, there is a lot of altered copper up for sale in the coming Heritage sale IMHO.