Trade Dollar for a Type Set... chopped vs not chopped
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lkenefic
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Hello Everyone
As many of you are aware, I'm back to putting a Dansco 7070 Type set together. My target coins are in grades from ~XF45 to AU58-ish, problem-free, with good eye appeal for the grade. Here's my question: Since Trade Dollars were struck for international commerce, would the presence of a chop mark be part of that historical intent and not be considered "damage", or since the chop mark was introduced after the coin was minted, like all other distracting marks or counter marks, it's damaged regardless of the intent.
I'm sort of on the fence here. I can see compelling arguments for both sides. My Type set is meant to represent the coins as they would have appeared in commerce just after they were struck and entered circulation, but are still somewhat well preserved. I like the idea that someone may have purchased flour or other dry goods with the pieces I have in my collection, but they still retain most of the details and are a good representation of the designers' work.
Thoughts and comments appreciated... Thanks, Leo
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Comments
Buy one of each and swap them out every few months.
I would select (as I have) a nice chop marked example if the goal is a grade between EF45 and AU58. And the more compelling argument is the a chop marked example is evidence that it served its intended purpose.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I prefer chopmarked trade dollars. Of course, that is all I collect - so I may be biased.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
My type set is not in an album, but I collected one of each. If I had to pick one nice circulated example, I would go with a nice chopmarked, but not so heavily chopped as to obscure the full design.
I would prefer non chopped mark coins. JMO
Jim
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one like this, 1878-S DDR. details are very present, but with a well-placed chop
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
No chop in the regular 7070.
Put the chopped one in the Special 7070 along with the holed coins, the hobo nickel, and the love tokens.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Hi Leo - it is a dilemma. I don't own a TD, but given the parameters you described, I think I would choose the slightly chop marked coin. Think of the history of how they were used and the opportunity to explain what the mark represents to others who look at your collection (who don't know anything about the coin). I think that would be fun and add meaning to your collection.
No wrong answer here.
Fwiw, I have an unchopped in my 7070 and a lightly chopped slabbed one that I really like.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I've put together a set chopped and a set unchopped. My favorite set, by far, is the chopped one. The purpose of the Trade Dollar was for trade with Asia, so it should have a chopmark; it shows the coin acheived its minted purpose.
I'd try to find one chopmarked that is still asthetically pleasing. Perhaps with with one or two chops on the obverse, but nothing that really messes with the design.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
I agree with DDR. The chopmark is like a stamp of authenticity. You should be able to find something in nice original condition, with just a few chops so as not to obscure the coin for Type purposes.
You're bringing unnecessary uncertainty and fear to this conversation. That's pretty unlikely.
I'll recuse myself as when I started, chops were damage.
I've always thought that an ideal type coin of any kind should represent the design as the makers intended it, so no chops, but also no errors, clashes, die breaks, cuds, weak strikes, etc., etc.
Coin Rarities Online
I also collect Trade $'s and like them both ways. I would include both chopped and unchopped as others have said.
If one appreciates the history of Trade Dollars, then a collection should include both chopped and not. That would reflect both the minted beauty and actual usage. Including a journey across the Pacific and back...Cheers, RickO
Why spend good money for a mutilated coin? Unless there is some special interest in a "chop" - maybe you can read the characters - it's no different than any other coin that has been punched with a letter or name.
Your coin should be non-chopped in this type set instance.
I have many chop-marked 8 reales and it is simply a matter of sheer blind faith which ones were chopped historically and which ones were chopped in the USA since 1950 or so. Same thing with chopped US Trade dollars. IMHO, there are about as many fake chopped coins as there are real ones AND there is almost never a definitive way to tell.
Those two silver dollars are some degree of "damaged" but probably not "mutilated".
No doubt that the owner would want more $ than an undamaged coin.
Very many people could easily turn them down.
I wish I had the letter punches to put "SUEY" on one.
I totally disagree, with some practice it’s not hard to tell what is recent work, and from what I’ve seen fake chops are not common at all. Most of them share the same few punches, for example.
That's the reason why I started this thread! After reading the history of these pieces and their intended use, I started to question how I would place one into my type set. In reading the responses, I think I'm leaning more towards on the has been chopped a couple of times, but in areas that don't interfere with the major devices of the coin. That said, I fear that I've put myself into a corner in terms of "suitable" pieces...
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The examples posted by Realone are certainly interesting and have meaningful historical and human fascination because of their specific and understandable engravings. A coin punched with meaningless or random marks is simply mutilated - on the same level as Lincoln cents with a state outline added or other such rubbish.
If and only IF chop marks can be understood and identified do they convey anything of interest.
As to the OP, he can certainly include whatever he wishes in his type set. But if the idea is to represent each coin design in its best and most representative form, then a normal, mutilated coin, is preferable. Consider: if a chop mark Trade dollar is included then why not a chop mark Seated dollar from the late 1850s - these coins circulated in Asian markets, too?
Anecdote: I knew a longshoreman who "said" that TDs came in to the country in crates. ??????
Also that very early on, they sold for 85c to get rid of them.
Fact or fiction? It was the story.
I'd choose a non chopped Trade Dollar if I wanted one in my type set, much for the reasons already stated.
I do like counterstamped or engraved pieces from time to time, but certainly not for a stand alone example of type.
Good luck on your decision!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I differentiate between chopmarks and the Lincoln cent countermarks that you mention because chops provided actual commercial value, both breaking the surfaces of the coin to differentiate between a plated counterfeit and a genuine piece, and to confirm the piece as (presumably) genuine, criteria that simple mutilation or "enhanced collectible" counterstamps do not satisfy. The vast majority of chops were never intended to be directly representative of any particular business enterprise (except perhaps to other local merchants who were familiar with the chops used by their neighbors; there has never been a formal record discovered of which merchants used which marks), but that does not detract from the commercial purpose that they served.
Regarding the differentiation between inclusion of Seated Dollars with chops and Trade Dollars with chops in a type set, I personally would enjoy both, but that only pertains to my particular collecting interest. But the important factor to consider is that Seated Dollars as a type were primarily intended for domestic circulation, despite a few mintages being destined from conception for China, while Trade Dollars were designed with the explicit intention to circulate abroad; coins found in the States were the exception to the norm. That, and finding an appealing, unchopped Seated Dollar is certainly easier and cheaper than finding a chopped example, given that only a small handful of the latter are known to exist.
It gets down to what do YOU like.
We all have our biases, and that's what you asked to hear, I believe. However, at the end of the day, if it would bother YOU to have a "mutilated" coin in the set, then go for the unchopped. If it would PLEASE YOU to have one that saw historical usage (ie...chopped), then go for a chopped one.
For me, I'm not that big on many things historical, unless it is a big deal, but I did want a chopped one in our 7070 as, while not how they were intended to be when designed, it is how they were intended to be used as they were actually used, after a bit of time.
I only have 2 trade dollars. Both raw. One was lightly cleaned and the other not. Both chopped. Both from TDN, so I don't doubt the authenticity, even of his castoffs.
I would rather be showing the 7070 to a friend, or a YN, and have them notice the chopped trade dollar and ask about why it has the chop, or damage, than I would to just have them gloss over it like it was just another old, big, silver coin, next to others...just with a different design.
So, that last part is my bias/reasoning, but at the end, you go with what YOU feel more comfortable with.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I think I would go with chopped, because if someone viewing the album is not a collector, the coin could stimulate an interesting conversation.
This is how I would think about it. It's an opportunity for a fun discussion.
By the way, if anyone wanted a good book on the topic, "The Canton Trade" by Paul Van Dyke is pretty interesting and informative. link The book does not discuss Chopmarks extensively, but does provide a good bit of information about the whole system, why it was in place, how it worked, especially the players and vessels involved.
So....now we're getting to reasons to appreciate chop marked coins - took a while to drag that out. How about identification of the marks? Do they associate with a specific port/city? There are extant records of Chinese bankers who "regulated" silver -- anyone check those? What about correlation between Mexican pesos and US dollars/Trade dollars?
Com'on, there's more to it than a handful of mutilated coins !
RogerB...
If we look at the purpose of the US Trade Dollar, it was for overseas trade especially in the Orient. Part of the trade in China involved chop marks as a means of acceptance of the coins... coins from other countries as well. US Trade Dollars were not the only coins to be chop marked. It was a way of doing business/trade at the that point in time. And there were Mexican 8 Reales... those were chop marked too. Mexico 8 Reales traded at a premium to the US Dollar at that time.
Its not always about mutilated coins... its about capturing the moment in time when it was thought there was something to be gained form the chop mark.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
As I said in my original post, I personally like the idea that my type coins were used in regular commerce yet retain most of their details. I tend to think about the history and the goods and services these coins were part of... How much was a pound of bacon or flour in 1800? How many shots of whisky did this particular Seated Quarter buy?
These grades also fit in a bit better with my collecting budget as well.
I also have an 1856 $2.5 gold piece that was given to my grandfather at his first communion. It has more sentimental value than anything else since the reverse of the coin was polished and turned into a commemorative for the event. I'll image it later, but the gist is that at least part of my type set is also very personal. The Morgan Dollar was given to me by my grandfather when I was about 12 yo or so. I'll likely cull that out, but you get the idea here... That said, I like the idea of being able to start a conversation about the pieces in my collection...
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Good discussion!
A couple of points: First, it's been my experience --and I have been collecting chopmarked Trade Dollars for almost 20 years-- that the vast majority of chopmarks are legit. I have seen fake chops, usually but not always, on fake coins. But the vast majority are real.
Second, I disagree with Roger's assertion that chop marked Trade Dollars are "on the same level as Lincoln Cents with a state outline added or other such rubbish." Chop marks are not "meaningless or random marks." They mean something. They were a merchant or banker's statement of assurance that this particular coin, used in international trade between the United States and Asian countries 150 years ago, was a legit coin.
What we don't know, in almost all cases, is which bank or merchant or "chop house" stamped the coin. I suspect that is because many of those records, if there were any records at all, were destroyed during the Communist take over of China.
I have chops on one Trade Dollar that I am told can be traced back to a specific bank in Hong Kong, but I don't know that that can be proven.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Some care about minutia, but many of us don't.
Some people focus their whole life around researching every little thing they can, while some of us like to have some details and the big picture of history around things, but we have enough going on in our lives that we don't care about researching every little thing.
The ones I have that are chopmarked.....I am fine with that level of knowledge and info. I don't care to compare them to other chopmarks on other trade dollars. I don't care to find out which merchant or city most likely was their place of chopping, etc. I do know there are some out there that would love to have all that info. Unless it was the leader of China doing it at the time, or Confucius himself, which, since he wasn't around at that time, then I don't care that much.
I think there are a good number of folks who feel that same way, else, there may be more interest in hard times tokens and other numismatic items that one could try to identify deeply (engravings, etc). Cool to know but not cool enough to spend much, if any, time on.
Harsh reality for some to hear, I am sure, but for some of us, that's how it is.
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RE: " I don't care to compare them to other chopmarks on other trade dollars. I don't care to find out which merchant or city most likely was their place of chopping, etc."
That's fine. The purpose of my "contrarian" comments was to get others thinking about more than the superficial. That Bochiman responded is affirmation of the value of the approach. Thanks!
OP wants high circulated grades, good eye appeal, and no problems. Sounds like an unchopped coin is in order here, but I can see the draw of a discreetly chopped coin. For me, a type coin is more of an ideal specimen -- well struck, no problems on either the coin or the dies, so my preference would be for a wholesome XF-AU coin without chop marks. That said, if you can find a chopped coin that is also an attractive type coin despite the chop mark, and you like the coin, go for it. It's your set.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
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I "cherried" my brilliant AU S/CC when chopped Trade dollars were considered junk and were dumped as a heap into the case for $85 each - your pick. It's still in a defunct TPGS "Red Label" slab as AU Damaged.
While chopped coins are more interesting and historic, I'd put an undamaged coin in your set. Then get a chopped one for show-and-tell.