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Interesting Alpha Code on Slab Edge

CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

I was cleaning a number of newer slab purchases and happened to notice a seven letter dot matrix alpha code lasered into the edge of the slab. I do not recall any other threads on this topic so I thought I would ask here.

Sorry for this carpy cell photo as it is hard to get a good focus with the phone on a clear edge with little contrast. You will get the idea though.

Anyway, I got to looking at other slabs I have in the house at the moment. All of the older holders do not have a code. Nor do any NGC holders.

Here is a table of coins, some of which have codes, some not. I thought that maybe the code meant that the coin had been to CAC, but thre are examples in the table that have been to CAC but do not have a code. Others have been to CAC and have a code (passed and not passed). Based on this small sample size, I do not see codes on OGH labeled holders, blue labeled holders, or NGC holders. All seem to be on the Blue fading to white labels.

Anyone know what this code is and whether more recently holdered coins have this code? Is it another means of deterring counterfeit holder? Not sure.

“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

Comments

  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have never noticed that before. No slabs nearby to check though :/

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I asked Don Willis once if it was one of the anti-counterfeiting measures. He said that if he told me, he'd have to kill me, so that wasn't any help. Or maybe it was, since, well, here I am.

    I think it's an encrypted timestamp that shows when the coin was holdered. If I and O are omitted, 36 bits can be encrypted, which is enough for the date down to the second, with a few bits to spare. If, all of the sudden, I disappear, I guess I was right.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just checked 13 and 12 are so marked.....

    Hmmmmmm............

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All of the new slabs have it. That I have seen to date

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of mine is an OGH.....PO01, 1892cc

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does it fluoresce?

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll take a look at mine at daylight tomorrow B)

  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see letters along the bottom edge on recently slabbed Pan-Pacific items. In lieu of photos I'll try to get in the AM here is what I see
    ENWAKQR and VPLRBTR


  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 12:56AM

    Cool find.
    I have one:

    (Black letters were added by me to help show the dot matrix letters)
    Blue/White HWZMF JL

    It may be an anti counterfeiting feature.
    Maybe best not to discuss it, so the fakers don't start copying it.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have not noticed that on any of my slabs... It may well be there, I will have to check... Cheers, RickO

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, this is not an anti-counterfeiting measure; however, just the fact that it is there would produce the same effect on a crook.

    Now, we know it is applied after the coin is slabbed. It is either generated in a random fashion or every type coin will have at least one part of the code similar. That would be easy to check. Adding this to a slab adds time and record keeping so it must only be used on certain coins, probably those that are "imaged." That would be easy to confirm also.

    I hope this is done by a machine as it would be very tedious work otherwise. The easiest would be to change the die in the slab machine so that each week's coins would be marked the same. Let's see if we can find duplicate codes. If they are applied by man or machine it will be easy to detect.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 9:28AM

    PS IMO, nothing we post here will help the counterfeiters or I would not be posting! I like a good mystery.
    I'll bet this discussion is going viral or it will be closed. :wink:

    For those of you generating lists, the grade, date, and denomination of the coin in the slab and whether it was imaged would be helpful.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    Cool find.
    I have one:

    (Black letters were added by me to help show the dot matrix letters)
    Blue/White HWZMF JL

    It may be an anti counterfeiting feature.
    Maybe best not to discuss it, so the fakers don't start copying it.

    Good pic, possibly looking like a serial number/code emplaced by the sonic sealer.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 9:34AM

    Someone post a slab containing the letters "H, J, and W" in any order and we'll be able to tell if they were done by a human or machine. :)

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    IMO, this is not an anti-counterfeiting measure; however, just the fact that it is there would produce the same effect on a crook.

    Now, we know it is applied after the coin is slabbed. It is either generated in a random fashion or every type coin will have at least one part of the code similar. That would be easy to check. Adding this to a slab adds time and record keeping so it must only be used on certain coins, probably those that are "imaged." That would be easy to confirm also.

    I hope this is done by a machine as it would be very tedious work otherwise. The easiest would be to change the die in the slab machine so that each week's coins would be marked the same. Let's see if we can find duplicate codes. If they are applied by man or machine it will be easy to detect.

    I can say that the list in my OP are all bust halves with the exception of the first item. I do not see any pattern to these at all.

    I checked another box of coins and I can add this observation. It is only on the labels that are blue fading to white AND the white reverse label with the QR code.

    I also suspect these are done by laser but could be done by machine. I lean toward the laser because the lettering is barely felt (simple, clean, fast, no impact). Impacts of pins would likely leave raised craters that are easily felt. The markings tend to be centered on the bottom edge but not all - some drift toward the left edge. This might suggest that the coins are not fixtured when marked - by whatever method is used.

    I would think that if done by laser, it would be fixtured somehow.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bar code to sealing code confirmation. Laser imprint. (?)

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is this code in all 3 major tpg slabs? Peace

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Namvet69 said:
    Is this code in all 3 major tpg slabs? Peace

    Nope, have only seen this on PCGS slabs with labels as described earlier.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We still need to see a magnified image of a slab with the three letters I asked to see if they match on both slabs.

  • robecrobec Posts: 6,578 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have two slabs with the identical YMZFMGN marking. The Z could be a 2, hard to tell with dot matrix. So the code isn't unique to each slab.

  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭✭

    @robec said:
    I have two slabs with the identical YMZFMGN marking. The Z could be a 2, hard to tell with dot matrix. So the code isn't unique to each slab.

    I can confirm the codes are not unique to each slab. I was intrigued by these a few years ago when PCGS first started doing it. As best I can tell, each batch has the same code.
    My hypothesis is PCGS records the day(s) that batch is used and records what cert numbers are inside of which “plastic code”.

    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

    CN eBay

    All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @robec said:
    I have two slabs with the identical YMZFMGN marking. The Z could be a 2, hard to tell with dot matrix. So the code isn't unique to each slab.

    I WONDER WY THESE CODES DID NOT COME UP YEARS AGO? All bets are off if this code is so old. Need to start guessing again. :(

    @robec, what are the coins in the slabs, did they come from the same submitter or batch?

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,250 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 11:27AM

    Here you go, the last one on my list. In hand the WHJ look the same as yosclimber's piece, especially the J.
    WHKBJTD

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • robecrobec Posts: 6,578 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @robec, what are the coins in the slabs, did they come from the same submitter or batch?

    Both are Lincoln crossovers from the same submission complete earlier this month.

  • 10000lakes10000lakes Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭

    From what I can tell by spot checking a few of my slabs that were part of a larger submission.

    1) Multiple coins sequentially in a submission will have the same code.
    2) Not all coins in the same submission will have the same codes.
    3) More than 10 coins in a sequential run can have the same code.
    4) When the code changes it is completely different from the previous code.

    Maybe someone that gets back a larger submission can check their slabs to see if there is a repeatable pattern.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I imagine they are in-house QC codes in the event of an issue with the individual employee, sonic sealer, plastic frame or gasket batch.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd now hypothesize that the alpha code is a date stamp. Could change by the hour, shift, day, or whatever PCGS set up.

    This is helpful for quality control purposes and since PCGS is secretive on the dates when coins are slabbed, it makes sense to convert to an untraceable alpha code so it can't be used for dating. Also explains why the alpha code is totally no sequential.

    Unless you have the secret squirrel decoder ring, the alpha code means nothing to the outsiders.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 12:10PM

    The codes on my last graded Pan-Pacific batch are all different. All my coins are different types, medals and legal tender, so I can't say if I sent two of the same denomination and type they would be different.

    @robec, are the ones with the same code the same denomination and type?

    Definitely LASER engraved. They could have been done in seconds mounted in a rail system that fed them one at a time to the LASER position. Basically automated.

    If this is an anti counterfeiting method it would surely be encoded with a strong key that would resist decoding.


    These are the two numbers I reported last night - ENWAKQR and RBTRVPL. Sorry, I posted incorrectly the second number last night.


  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:
    Does it fluoresce?

    Sure does, and a lot easier to read....maybe I can get a pic.

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cameonut said:
    I'd now hypothesize that the alpha code is a date stamp. Could change by the hour, shift, day, or whatever PCGS set up.

    This is helpful for quality control purposes and since PCGS is secretive on the dates when coins are slabbed, it makes sense to convert to an untraceable alpha code so it can't be used for dating. Also explains why the alpha code is totally no sequential.

    Unless you have the secret squirrel decoder ring, the alpha code means nothing to the outsiders.

    Agreed. I don't expect we will be told the true purpose nor get any official comment at all. Always keep the bad guys guessing


  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 12:17PM

    Only on the end (PM to find out which).
    A bit of hand shake, but you get the idea.

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah....so not LASER but Inkjet with florescent ultra violet ink. Just as fast to do as LASER but with added security.


  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,353 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, PCGS has been etching the slabs for a couple of years now. I have etching on both lower priced coins and higher priced coins and on coins that were not imaged as well as those that were imaged.

    There was a thread on this topic shortly after the etching was started,,,,, that is how I knew to look for it. I don't recall the topic of the thread to do a search for it?

    GrandAm :)
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018 9:18AM

    Strange, hard to read, but looks familiar?

    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I were to guess....(and I must)….

    The code is probably recorded with the coin information. So in the future, if some counterfeiter uses the legit Serial Number with a bogus coin (counterfeit, lower grade, etc.), there will be a record at PCGS of what code SHOULD be on the slab.

    If you get dragged into court, having a factual basis for saying "it's a counterfeit slab" is better than just asking a court to believe you with such things as "the type face is wrong", or "the surface texture is different".

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 6:07PM

    @GRANDAM said:
    ...
    There was a thread on this topic shortly after the etching was started,,,,, that is how I knew to look for it. I don't recall the topic of the thread to do a search for it?

    September 2015 (I did a google search for PCGS slab etching code):
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/951522/im-digging-the-new-pcgs-slabs

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good going. Now the Chinese know.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the post referenced by @yosclimber above


  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve always wondered if PCGS added SmartWater style protection. See link: https://www.smartwater.com

    If this is the case, or similar, there is some additive in the ink as well. I have some hypotheses (it’s NOT biological) as to what it could be. If I get ahold of one of these slabs after being cracked, I might just put it in the scanning electron microscope (SEM) and find out.

    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

    CN eBay

    All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!

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