Calling coinditional experts, teach me how to recognize cleaned coins in photos
Aspie_Rocco
Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have difficulty at times recognizing photos of coins that were improperly cleaned. I would really like to learn how to spot these altered coins in photos, to avoid wasting money and avoid hearing trolls say things like “got what ya derserve.”
I am aware of the difference between die polish marks and most harsh cleaning marks.
Bright shining chrome looks are also a give away. Uneven surface tones not associated with tarnish can be an indicator also.
What else?
Can anyone post photos of cleaned Coins or features to watch out for, please?
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
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Here are a few examples of Coins found on eBay. I know for certain that one has been cleaned. The rest are a mystery.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
In summary AR...it is real hard.
You can eliminate cleaning lines on a coin pic by just moving the light to a different direction as
an example. If someone wants to fool you in a pic they probably can. But an honest seller/trader will
show a pic showing the cleaning.
It's even to tell on Details slabs sometimes.
Just do not buy raw coins. Problem solved. TPGS are a service for just this situation.
Mostly, but not always. I've seen a few cleaned coins in slabs.
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Sadly, I see cleaned TPGS coins every single day. Buy the coin, not the holder.
Dave
I’ve seen more than a few cleaned coins in slabs, especially, ones that have retoned. I have a couple that have CAC stickers too so it’s very difficult. I try to work with dealers I trust and can give me an honest opinion. I’ll also bid in the occasional Heritage auction but am very picky what I bid on.
Sorry, but this is a place where we need the "disagree button." I've seen cleaned coins in certification holders. I have seen many slightly cleaned coins in holders when the grader must of decided that the cleaning was not too bad. I've seen slightly cleaned coins that were net graded for the problem. I've agreed with some of those net grades. There are some older coins that have been cleaned in so many cases, that there won't be much left to grade if you got maniacal about the issue.
Holders do not protect you from cleaned coins, just as @dave99B wrote.
One of the big features to watch for are hairlines that run in the same direction or hairlines that have a pattern to them. For example if the hairlines are in a swirl, that is usually not good.
I consider myself a conditional expert. Sometimes I feel I am and other times I feel I'm not.
There are plenty of cleaned coins is TPGS slabs. What you need to remember is there is something called "Market Acceptability." Furthermore, just because a coin has hairlines does not prove it has been improperly cleaned. It took me a long time to realize this.
Additionally, I conserve coins on a regular basis. Translation: I clean collector's coins every day either when asked or when I call them and suggest it. If anyone can prove I cleaned their coin, I screwed the job up! When you send a coin to a TPGS for conservation (cleaning) it is usually put into a straight graded holder.
The best way to detect an "improperly cleaned" coin is to know what the surface of an original, untouched (toned or not) coin looks like. The ONLY way to learn this is by examining original coins using magnification. The ONLY way to learn what a "market acceptable" coin looks like is to examine TPGS slabs. Over time, many of you will develop the ability to look at a coin with your naked eye and be able to determine with 85% plus accuracy if it is original. The other 15% minus will take magnification.
Sadly, many people don't like the dirty ones.
You need to look at a lot of coins in hand, over a lot of time, and learn what the right appearance is for whatever it is you are interested in. After that, you should be able to tell from internet photos, If in doubt, pass on it.
When you have developed and eye, you'll see that the services have passed lots of coins which have obviously been cleaned. The standard apparently is if they can't detect hairlines under whatever magnification they use, its good.
TPGS does not mean not cleaned, just acceptable and if necessary sellable usually. I pass on lots of slabbed coins that look over dipped or even cleaned. I just will not pay much $ at all for a raw coin as I am a collector and not a pro.
I appreciate the huge service that TPG's have been to the coin business, but have to pile on regarding the "market acceptable" issue of cleaned coins in holders.
If all the coins that had been available to me throughout my life had been in holders, I don't know if I would have been so interested in the hobby. While I might have saved some ill-spent money here and there, the hobby would not have been nearly as enjoyable - but I've never been more than a casual reseller and enthusiast.
Your mileage may vary.
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Oh a few would be putting it mildly.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Thanks Skip. Hope you had a nice holiday. Peace Roy
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The only example I have, the coin was heavily cleaned with a buffing wheel.
I would consider most of those coins cleaned
1917 buffalo obv - looks like polished or buffed .. dark around LIBERTY and light on top of a little away from
1908 Barber dime obv - between ear, over nose, on field towards M .. nearly parallel lines
1930 Buffalo obverse - OK
O reverse dime - left to right parallel lines in fields, easiest seen above E in ONE
S reverse Buffalo - looks wiped over ribs and rump, but could be just VF circulated
one YEN obverse - question authenticity - toning around letters/devices but not around dots above 900 - edge rim look to nice for XF/AU type coin - toning around figures on right have reflection, either heavy toning or paint
sun reverse - unnaturally light with roughly parallel lines in center field in the 5-11 direction
I might buy any of those if a rarity, but adjust my bids much lower accordingly .. there are just too many coins that are available and I might be wrong a few times being overly critical, but don't care.
I also go back to pictures when I get item if I see something on coin, I did not remember seeing to see what clues were in picture that I miss (sometimes I see something I like so much, I forget to critically look at both sides - if only 1 side shown, I pass - I also verify it is what they say it is - many times sellers call a coin something it is not)
If you are buying thousands of dollars in coins, I recommend a grading class. The ANA has 2 week courses in summer in CO, but if time/budget don't work for that ,, they also have 2 day weekend courses occasionally at big shows around country - I went to one of those a few years ago and really recommend it.
I recommend (as some above have said) a grading class... Live training by an expert, with 'in hand' examples is the best way to learn. Second best are the online resources or books. Those are good, but without the guidance that an expert can provide. As far as pictures, they can be deceptive... as noted above, lighting and position can obscure hairlines and other indicators. Then there is the degree or type of cleaning... the 'market acceptable' degree or dipping. Most dipping is acceptable, not preferred by purists... and over dipping ruins the surface of coins. Good luck in your pursuit of knowledge.... Cheers, RickO
My opinion on cleaning is more in line with those who collect ancients.
If it straight grades, it's good enough for me.
I stressed over a NGC > PCGS crossover with BIG die polish lines for a couple of weeks.
It ended up being fine but was clearly entering the category of "distracting".
My Saint Set
I would call all of those coins cleaned. Anything lower than AU without some grime IMO has at least been dipped and I personally don’t care for that look. I personally don’t have an issue with correctly
dipped MS or high AU but removing the grime below that makes the coin look unnatural. How the heck did those get worn without the associated dirt? Doesn’t look right.
The dimes you have have obvious hairlines from wiping. Some of the others have dirt buildup around lettering which is a clear sign.
It would be helpful if you posted your definition of cleaned.
Do you mean wiped with a cloth or dipped out or both?
I work 99% in raws and consider myself pretty good at assessing them. Not foolproof - no one is - but I’d say pretty good.
Stress? LOL, it is lucky you were not looking at an attractive coin with long, deep, adjustment marks!
Excellent responses and explanations folks. Thank you much. I will re-examine photos and the notes provided. The lessons are greatly appreciated.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Experience. Your eyes will adjust. Watch for whizzed raw coins as well.
Better be careful buying coins from images alone. Coin photography can make good coins look bad and bad coins look good. I would suggest to you to go to any coin show and look at as many coins as you can in the series that you specialize in. After a while you will be able to separate the good from the bad. If not, then make friends with a trusted dealer that knows his/her stuff. Someone mentioned hairlines on a coin. In addition, pay attention to the rims on a coin. I have seen copper coins that have orange rims and a brown surface color. Ugh! Pass on any coin that you are unsure about. It’s part of the learning experience.