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Counterfeit $10 Liberty for your viewing pleasure.
Jinx86
Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭✭✭
Came in with a large assortment of 10's. This one stuck out due to the color, missing strike details, and once magnified the die imperfections.
8
Jinx86
Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Is it 90% gold?
bob
Gold content is correct and so is weight.
Interesting! Thanks for posting.
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Yup, "flat" and "soft" are the first two words that come to mind, followed by "off color" and "wrong luster".
Tons of die gouges near the rim. Thanks for posting this.
So, probably contemporary?
bob
It looks like a Lebanon counterfeit,
from the early-mid '1970's.
Lebanon was the China of those days,
at least for gold coins.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Most likely made overseas in the 1940's 1950's would be my guess. As it was legal in many countries to make counterfeit coins, so long as it had the correct gold content.
@FredWeinberg
Thanks, had my dates off a bit. A lot to learn from these.
I have read that counterfeit British Gold sovereigns were okay if they had the right weight and gold fineness because the real thing was in short supply,. I have one that says it was from the South African Mint that I bought back in the 1970s.
Very interesting. Thanks for posting it and helping us how to spot the fakes.
I've had plenty of counterfeit sovereigns pass by my way over the years.
Exact gold content and weight.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I would probably be fooled. Off color. Yikes.
Hard to know without seeing coin in person. From the pics color doesn't look off to me either.
Once you start looking though, the die imperfections become apparent.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Pretty sure these were die struck as it does have good luster and die engraving marks. I've some of these with killer luster, but minor details were off.
That's what I was going to say.
The date is very bad and the reverse rims are strange indeed.
At least they were gold, and had correct value for a bullion coin. They weren't trying to pass them off as real coins. I actually saw a Lebanese Sovereign of George V with a 22kt stamp on the obverse.
Does the law ever get involved as these are from other countries or are they immune from our legal system?
Good catch...and an informative thread....Cheers, RickO
@Onastone
This was created so long ago that the counterfeiter most likely has passed many years ago. Also I don't believe there was ever any action taken against the forgers due to at the time they were made they were just valued for bullion and were not collected as "rare coins".
I did an article for COINage years ago about counterfeits that were stamped with their finenesses to show that the counterfeiters were not trying to cheat anybody. One of the examples was a Mexican 50 Pesos stamped 21KT in a bezel stamped 21KT on a heavy necklace stamped 21KT. They matched beautifully, which I am sure was the counterfeiter’s goal. When I worked in the coin shop some customers complained that our 14KT gold bezels and chains did not match the colors of the coins we had for sale.
Hard to tell it is a counterfeit. I really grapple to understand why anyone would make a counterfeit that has the same amount of weight of gold as the original and that is not a numismatic piece? People are bored maybe?
These were manufactured in the 60's to early 70's and it was still illegal to own gold coin in the US at that time. Supposedly merchants in the Middle East preferred gold coin as payment and there weren't enough to go around so someone decided to fake ours. Same gold content, supposedly many ended up here because people traveling abroad would bring them back due to our ban on gold at the time. What I've read in multiple places anyway.
Edit: There is a 2017 Coinweek article about a 1892 half eagle from this era that shows some signs to look for. Didn't want to link for fear of the banhammer.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
We can get banned for linking an outside article that is informative and pertaining to the coin in question? Harsh world, I might have to reread the rules again.
Article was written by that other TPG that is in direct competition with the host. I know many rules have recently changed and thought I saw one talking about doing the above. Even though no ill intention, don't want to challenge it.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Thank you for sharing!
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All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Because some coins - especially the Sovereign - were known for their good gold content and fineness. It was a way to show that the owner of such coins had pieces of a known and accepted fineness and weight. They had to be stamped because they weren't as issued by the mint - a way to mark them as "copies", but not in the Chinese sense. Much harder to get someone to take your gold if they don't have a way to check the fineness and weight. The penalty for abusing this policy was a bit stricter than what we have now.
I admit, I would have been fooled, looks good to me. At least it's gold though.
Geezo, thanks for sharing this information. Peace Roy
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This is interesting that the gold had to be coined. The making of a blank or near blank gold piece (with weight/fineness) probably was not aesthetically pleasing?
This is a VERY informative thread.
From what I've read, the counterfeiters from the 1960's era used real gold but some cheated on the fineness to get a little more profit. In any event I wouldn't want any fake gold no matter how much gold it contained. There are plenty of real US gold coins that can be bought at prices near melt value to mess with fakes of dubious gold content.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Pretty decent counterfeit that would fool a lot of people, without a close look under some mag. Thanks for posting this especially the large photos.
The numismatic value still exceeded the melt value, which made it worth while. This was especially true for the counterfeit gold dollars and Thee Dollar Gold Pieces. Even a counterfeit $10 gold, that contained $17 worth of gold (at $35 an ounce), was worth $40 if it was called Unc.
They were dealing with people that for the most part were uneducated and illiterate, so it had to be something they were familiar with and could easily establish a value. Similar to the reason the Maria Teresa crown continued with the 1780 date. These would be classified as Replicas, rather than Counterfeits.
That does makes sense, thank you @thefinn
In addition to what the OP mentioned the date isn't right on that coin either.
Excellent point. At the time many of these fake US gold coins were being produced there was a significant numismatic premium for these coins so a good profit could be made even when using real gold. The smaller US gold coins had the highest numismatic premiums and were hit particularly hard by the counterfeiters.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The situation got so bad with the gold dollars and the Three Dollar Gold Pieces that many collectors were afraid to buy them. Those pieces got a really bad reputation with collectors which made the real ones harder to sell. Although grading had a lot to do with the advent of third party grading, in this area authentication became a huge concern too.
Years ago a dealer told me a story about his experience in a poker game with another group of dealers. During the game one of the dealers put a $3 gold coin in the pot. The dealer said that the game was in a dark room. After the game, the dealer who had thrown the piece in the pot pulled it back. Sure enough the piece turned out to be a counterfeit.
I remember going to coin shows before third party grading came along and frequently seeing counterfeit US gold coins in dealer cases. I was collecting US gold coins at the time and was seriously reconsidering my choice in what to collect. Then third party grading (ANACS) came along which made it much safer to buy US gold coins and those other US coins which were frequently counterfeited such as 1909-S VDB cents, 1916-D dimes, 1893-S Morgan dollars, etc.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Yes, collectors were really concerned about buying any 1853 gold dollars because so many counterfeits bore that date. There is a page in the Walter Breen gold dollar variety booklet, that was published in the mid 1960s, which compares a counterfeit with a genuine piece.
I would be remiss in my duties as Bill Fivaz's publisher if I didn't mention his excellent book, the United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide. If you're interested in the subject, you might find it to be an interesting and educational reference.
I have this book among many other counterfeit detection books and it's quite excellent. PCGS published a coin grading book several years ago and it had a section on counterfeit coins that's also highly recommended.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Yep, that was ANACS's first mission, and we did it pretty damn well!
Small gold is still a tough item to collect raw. Another dealer at the last show had me look over some potential purchases of his for a 2nd opinion. Three out of the five raw small golds were bad. Sadly these things are very hard to detect without practice and having studied a handful of known counterfeits. The Liberty golds that were made tend to be not quite as well done and much easier to spot.
I may end up posting more counterfeits as I have them come in. Sometimes I get batches in from dealers to be melted for scrap.
Actually, this coin is screaming I'm BADDDDddddddddddddd! Read the posts above for some characteristics.
Unfortunately, don't believe everything you read on this thread unless it comes from a respected coin authenticator or knowledgeable coin dealer who was around at the time. Too much misinformation has been passed down over the years by well-meaning wannabe's who heard things from other well-meaning wannabe's. This includes several seminar instructors I have listened to. Ever hear the one about fake $5 Indians spinning?
Much of today's misinformation about older fakes began because one of this country's foremost "authenticators" had NO CLUE at all what he was teaching/writing about concerning counterfeits. I was there to refute his opinions as he was too pig-headed and proud to let himself be educated by both the ANACS Director, Charles Hoskins, and a twenty-something kid.
The percentage of cast counterfeit gold coins could be counted on two fingers back in the 1970's. The fakes were mostly die struck and the dies that struck them were NOT CASTS! The alloy used to make these fakes was NOT the correct standard either. That's just ONE reason (others have been mentioned above) why they could be easily detected from a foot away! There were profits to be made between the gold needed to make a small denomination coin and its numismatic value if genuine.
Additionally, there is no up-to-date published information about detecting counterfeit coins. The books above are all you have. Characteristics used to detect counterfeits usually become obsolete within a very short time after they are revealed by authenticators. The situation has become so critical that in most cases, clues to detection are not revealed.
I tell my associates and students that I'm glad I will not be around in twenty years to face the newest threats from counterfeiting.
You'll be around in one form or another to help us out. I think you enjoy coins too much to take your toys and leave completely.
LOL, only if I can haunt you all from my grave!
Anything I write before then will become mostly obsolete. 
Great thread!
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