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Cleaned coin, sold as “uncurculated” BU

Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

So I was the latest sucker to buy a cleaned coin as BU. No returns. I am a little frustrated with being mislead. I happens to get another coin from a different dealer, also a rare variety, also cleaned, also listed as BU uncirculated. Bad luck or bad eyes.
It has happened a few times :(
I should have realized from the photo quality it was bunk.
The coin is a Bugs bunny clash 1953 D, but I dislike cleaned and details coins.
Original photos

It still has some luster, but high points shine too brightly. Local shop confirmed as “light wipe or cleaned”


Comments

  • BruceSBruceS Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why no returns? That should be the first red flag, and what did the sellers pics look like? Those cell.phone pictures show obvious signs of a cleanings. If you wanted to push the issue you could file a snad case, or use it as a learning experience.


    eBay ID-bruceshort978
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  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I need to learn to see cleaned Coins better. It has been a disappointing issue since the beginning for me. In hand I have learned to spot many, but pics get me sometimes. I saw the variety and bought that, lol.

    As for the no returns, sort of a flag, but I do not accept returns on eBay either. Although if someone contacted me with an issue I would, but i pretty much only sell Pcgs coins.

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,475 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018 6:53PM

    @jdimmick said:
    snad em

    This. If the cleaning was not described in the listing or apparent in the images, then initiate a "Not as Described" return and attach those pictures. If the seller knew he was selling cleaned crap he likely will accept the return, if not, Ebay will most likely accept the return after 3 days or so.

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To be fair, that is very harsh/bad lighting, and that can sometimes make coins look cleaned even if they are not. I would have to see better pictures to decide for myself.

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,475 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018 6:58PM

    Ah, I see you attached the seller's images. Still you can claim there are scratches that were obscured in the images (the evidence is your images which you can attach to the return request). Also, if the seller did not mention the coins were cleaned in the description, then I think you can still claim not as described.

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Send it back as mentioned. It was not sold as described. Clearly you will get your money back, no problem. Seller will even be providing postage to send back. Then post a negative to the seller and perhaps they will start being honest on their descriptions.
    bob

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is going on near Pluribus Unum? is that a retained strike through?

    To be fair, not all sellers on eBay consider themselves dealers or can tell if a coin is clean I their hand.
    I sometimes have problems and need a loupe when there is plenty od die polish involved.

    On eBay, 'no return' is a thing in the past, no matter what the seller says, although I dislike the process on both ends.

    When I am looking for home runs, I frequently end up with outs, singles or doubles. Sometimes I can not even tell myself until I get coin grades from PCGS. I always try to check the entire forest, besides looking for specific trees.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AUandAG said:
    Send it back as mentioned. It was not sold as described. Clearly you will get your money back, no problem. Seller will even be providing postage to send back. Then post a negative to the seller and perhaps they will start being honest on their descriptions.
    bob

    I did file a claim. I messaged the seller twice, once today, once Saturday. No replies ever.
    I was considering dropping a negative, it was my first thought after being ignored, but it has been a long time since I have done that and was not sure if that was fair. They have 100% positive, but that makes me wonder did they get duped or have they duped dozens of others?

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Your results should not depend on what others do. Maybe it's the first time for this seller and a neg will stop it in it's tracks. Leave the neg, deserved especially with no communication.

    bob

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aspie_Rocco ...appreciate the lesson dude, I guess its easy to see now that you have it magnified, almost looks like they used a brilo pad. But, the obvious trace amounts of dirt left after cleaning is the give away?

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinscratchFever said:
    @Aspie_Rocco ...appreciate the lesson dude, I guess its easy to see now that you have it magnified, almost looks like they used a brilo pad. But, the obvious trace amounts of dirt left after cleaning is the give away?

    Yes the dirt and shining high points. The shine caught my eye, and I compared it with another 53D in actual BU condition then took it to Tim at conejo stamp and coin. He said wiped/cleaned, which confirmed my suspicion.

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,475 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aspie_Rocco said:

    @AUandAG said:
    Send it back as mentioned. It was not sold as described. Clearly you will get your money back, no problem. Seller will even be providing postage to send back. Then post a negative to the seller and perhaps they will start being honest on their descriptions.
    bob

    I did file a claim. I messaged the seller twice, once today, once Saturday. No replies ever.
    I was considering dropping a negative, it was my first thought after being ignored, but it has been a long time since I have done that and was not sure if that was fair. They have 100% positive, but that makes me wonder did they get duped or have they duped dozens of others?

    However, if the seller accepts the return and refunds you promptly, I would not leave a neg. If it were me I would just leave no feedback. Now if the seller is uncooperative and a PITA the entire way, then maybe I would leave a neutral or neg. But even then if I thought the seller was just not knowledgeable about coins (i.e. someone selling grandpa's old coins a dealer screwed him on in the 1970s) then I would probably just not leave any feedback.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aspie_Rocco Your counter top looks cleaned too but, thats okay :p

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018 7:42PM

    @CoinscratchFever said:
    @Aspie_Rocco Your counter top looks cleaned too but, thats okay :p

    This is part of my counter top.
    The first two pics in original post are the sellers photos.

    We call this the island but it is really a peninsula. This is cleaned and polished. ;)

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1). I would never dream of showing my local b&m coin dealer a coin that I had purchased elsewhere.

    2). There is NO Santa Claus in Numismatics.

    3). Hopium is a very powerful drug. Expensive too.

  • It’s a somewhat uncommon BB - think it’s die 2 and a URS-5 on the Franklin Lovers site. Coin is definitely cleaned but depending on the price you paid it may be worth keeping until you can find a MS upgrade. Then just flip it off but attributed for a small premium.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aspie_Rocco ...Well, that explains it, that guy cleans everything. And that is a very sweet looking slate..I could see losing my jigger o salt pretty easily. Or whatever else I sat down there lol :#

  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As a dealer, when I had a storefront shop I had a number of people show me coins they purchased on ebay.
    I never understood that. One wanted me to write to ebay that it was cleaned.
    Why should I help someone that NEVER bough anything from me to help him with his problem from ebay.
    I did and never saw him again.

    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have been going to the same store for over a decade now. They do not always have things I want, and the dealer I know has never had a problem giving me evaluations before. I frequently take him Variety coins I find, to show off I guess. We have a good relationship I think. I bought him a Dan Carr peace dollar as a gift when they came out for teaching me so much, and I always leave a tip on the counter or try to after an evaluation.
    I will ask him next time if this behavior of showing other coins from eBay or asking opinions is unwanted. I imagine he would have said something long ago...

  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭

    Depending on what you collect and the local BM you visit.. you could go there every week and never find a coin to buy. I always thought of the ones I have visited as their office plus a place locals could walk in and sell items. People
    rarely buy, unless bullion. And the items you do sell to them... dang they make a healthy profit off of it. Selling on
    ebay would reap so much more. But anyway... I am sure not all coin shops are the same. I just have poor luck with
    the ones I have visited. On the positive side they always seemed to enjoy talking. Probably breaks up their day a bit.

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018 9:16PM

    1). Don’t buy raw coins on EBay. If you do buy them on the cheap.

    2). File SNAD.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,293 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many a seller's MO is to sell cleaned coins as problem free BU. What's worse is when they accuse you of cleaning them upon return. :angry:

    Collector, occasional seller

  • AlexinPAAlexinPA Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The company I deal explicitly with has been in the business for over 50 years. I would buy a 'raw' coin from them but all others, sorry.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely return the coin.... just no sense in holding a product that is defective....Cheers, RickO

  • clarkbar04clarkbar04 Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Those photos were taken with the intent of hiding that, IMO.

    MS66 taste on an MS63 budget.
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AUandAG said:
    Your results should not depend on what others do. Maybe it's the first time for this seller and a neg will stop it in it's tracks. Leave the neg, deserved especially with no communication.

    bob

    The seller was emailed on a Saturday and then on the Tuesday of a major holiday week. Maybe the seller is up to no good, maybe the seller is just busy for a moment, which is more than understandable right now. The seller doesn't have any items listed at the moment, so maybe he's away. With a SNAD in your back pocket to use when necessary, I don't understand the reason to jump to the conclusion that every seller is evil if a response doesn't come immediately.

    Now I'm also going to give an unpopular opinion, which, yes, comes with the bias that I sell thousands of coins a year on eBay. The photo from the listing is terrible, and you really can't tell much from it. To be fair, the OP's photos make the coin look better, and if it's cleaned (I'll take a dealer's in-hand account that it's been wiped), the OP's photos still don't make it look that bad. That's not excusing the seller if there's a problem, but this isn't a harshly cleaned coin, and for what it's worth, it's also a series known for die polish, which some see as cleaning due to the hairlining effect. Long story short, I've seen a lot of badly cleaned coins, and this isn't one of them. The seller doesn't appear to be a major coin seller (mostly lower end material, poor photos of everything), and if the OP needed to confirm with a dealer that the coin was cleaned, perhaps it isn't that bad, and maybe the seller should get the benefit of the doubt, rather than be burned at the stake.

    No, I don't think sellers should be off the hook if they're wrong, but I don't like the mentality that any time a seller makes a mistake, it's evil. Sure, eBay allows you to return just about anything on a whim, but when there's a bad photo (especially one that's bad because it will hide any flaws), take some responsibility and don't bid, or ask the seller for clarification or a better photo. Some in this thread have just said to open a SNAD. Others have said to point out some chatter seen in the OP's photos as reason that the coin wasn't described perfectly. That's a dangerous road to go down because even a good photo may inadvertently hide something due to the fact that a photo is one view with one lighting angle. Yes, I try to describe flaws (especially those that I know won't photograph) in my listings, but guaranteed most coins have some mark that isn't in the picture (and probably show some mark that another photo would hide). If you have to resort to finding little differences to prove your point, you may not have a great point. Why do I say this? eBay's been a great place to get coins for a long time, but eBay is also making it tougher and tougher to sell them. Yes, it's all in the name of buyer satisfaction, but the more power buyers take, the more sellers may decide it's not worth it. And if the sellers leave, there's nothing left for the buyers. That doesn't mean sellers should get away with misrepresenting items, but just remember not all sellers are experts. Be an informed buyer and consider a SNAD a last resort, not a first line of defense that takes away all risk in a purchase.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018 10:41AM

    "So I was the latest sucker to buy a cleaned coin as BU. No returns. I am a little frustrated with being mislead. I”
    So what else do you expect when they say no returns. You got exactly what you deserved, no more and no less.
    This is just crying after the milk jar has been tipped over.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would file a SNAD and return it!

  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭

    pretty much everyone here has nailed it. Seller has stated no returns, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on if the description does not match the coin in hand

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,475 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After seeing Jeremy's post I looked up the auction - the coin sold for $13 plus $2.66 shipping. If it were me I would have thrown it in the junk silver pile, and chalked it up as a $10 lesson in reading crappy photos. Depends on how much time you would want to spend to net $10 on the return. But I would just leave NO feedback, I would not neg or neutral a seller for a $13 coin - he just may not know a lot about coins. Plus, at the end of the day, coin collecting is supposed to be fun - leaving questionable negative feedback is not fun.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,293 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agree, for $15 there's no point in returning. Save yourself the time and stress, that's worth more than $15 IMO.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018 8:49PM

    @BUFFNIXX said:
    "So I was the latest sucker to buy a cleaned coin as BU. No returns. I am a little frustrated with being mislead. I”
    So what else do you expect when they say no returns. You got exactly what you deserved, no more and no less.
    This is just crying after the milk jar has been tipped over.

    How did I “deserve” to be mislead? That sort of attitude is cancer for the hobby in my opinion. It is not helpful at all, and things like that and misidentified coins are a big reason so many are deterred and avoid the hobby.

    In addition I take offense to you calling this discussion “crying”. Jog on.

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