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PCGS no graded my coin "Wheel Mark". Trueview in 1st post. **Edit** I believe found the "Wheel mark"

fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 25, 2018 4:53AM in U.S. Coin Forum

Yes! I found the wheel mark! It's in the rays of the sun up towards the flag. Can't see it on the coin, but can see it in the trueview blown up images.

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Comments

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    I don't see a "wheel mark" but I do see what they probably thought was artificial toning.

    Ouch!

  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Left hand side of the shield on the reverse?

    Ken

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do not see a wheel mark.... I would definitely question the tarnish.....Cheers, RickO

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,225 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What would cause a "wheel mark" on a dollar size coin? I don't see it, but I don't have it in hand either. Color is suspect to me through.

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  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If that color was on a Morgan and it graded, that would be a sad situation. Since it's on a bullion coin I think it's completely acceptable. Further, I don't really see a wheel mark and wonder how that coin could even get one? There's no way these are ever run through a machine for any purpose, right?

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • AlexinPAAlexinPA Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMHO: One ugly coin.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,159 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The wheel marks that I have gotten in the past are peripheral scrapes, so I look near the letters at edge. I got rid of the color looking for odd areas and see something different near IBE on obverse. I also sometimes see it better in hand, rotating under light.

  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭✭✭

    12:00 on the obverse above the E on the rim? Yes, requires a very close inspection to find for sure and no idea how it would have gotten a wheel mark either.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess is the patch of hairlines is on the sun. You will not see a wheel mark unless the coin is held "just right" in the light. Distracting spots too.

  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I said breast I meant sun.

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks very natural toning to me and wheel mark, really? That is definitely a new one to me one this series.
    I feel for you as it is a really nice example

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018 6:17AM

    @coinsarefun said:
    Looks very natural toning to me and wheel mark, really? That is definitely a new one to me one this series.
    I feel for you as it is a really nice example

    These coins are probably not run through counting machines YET they do display patches of parallel hairlines that cannot be attributed to something that happened at the mint.

  • Batman23Batman23 Posts: 4,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abcde12345 said:
    When I said breast I meant sun.

    You got me. Here I was just staring at her chest the whole time trying to see what you were talking about.

    Now as far as the sun, I still don't see any obvious marks. The marks on the shield bother me though.

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Batman23 said:

    @abcde12345 said:
    When I said breast I meant sun.

    You got me. Here I was just staring at her chest the whole time trying to see what you were talking about.

    Now as far as the sun, I still don't see any obvious marks. The marks on the shield bother me though.

    All those white areas on the reverse are toning breaks. This I am 100% positive about.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wheel mark on a Silver Eagle That's a first! :D

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abcde12345 said:
    When I said breast I meant sun.

    Zoomed in and got lost....

  • MrLeeMrLee Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭

    @Batman23 said:

    @abcde12345 said:
    When I said breast I meant sun.

    You got me. Here I was just staring at her chest the whole time trying to see what you were talking about.

    Now as far as the sun, I still don't see any obvious marks. The marks on the shield bother me though.

    That's what I noticed too.

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @coinsarefun said:
    Looks very natural toning to me and wheel mark, really? That is definitely a new one to me one this series.
    I feel for you as it is a really nice example

    These coins are probably not run through counting machines YET the do display patches of parallel hairlines that cannot be attributed to something that happened at the mint.

    This I do agree with but I have seen maybe 50 or more like that and never had them say it was from a wheel.
    But something.....dont know

  • Batman23Batman23 Posts: 4,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fivecents said:

    @Batman23 said:

    @abcde12345 said:
    When I said breast I meant sun.

    You got me. Here I was just staring at her chest the whole time trying to see what you were talking about.

    Now as far as the sun, I still don't see any obvious marks. The marks on the shield bother me though.

    All those white areas on the reverse are toning breaks. This I am 100% positive about.

    I was looking at these shadowy marks on the shield. Not the toning breaks.

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Batman23 said:

    @fivecents said:

    @Batman23 said:

    @abcde12345 said:
    When I said breast I meant sun.

    You got me. Here I was just staring at her chest the whole time trying to see what you were talking about.

    Now as far as the sun, I still don't see any obvious marks. The marks on the shield bother me though.

    All those white areas on the reverse are toning breaks. This I am 100% positive about.

    I was looking at these shadowy marks on the shield. Not the toning breaks.

    All those are hits or tics and not toning breaks.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,186 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @asheland said:
    Wheel mark on a Silver Eagle That's a first! :D

    Yeah, I don’t think these were ever machine counted!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • coinhackcoinhack Posts: 1,157 ✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @asheland said:
    Wheel mark on a Silver Eagle That's a first! :D

    Yeah, I don’t think these were ever machine counted!

    Nor was the 1857 gold French 20 Franc that I submitted and came back Genuine - Wheel Mark.
    I wasn't even aware they had machine counters in 1857.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is like the numismatic version of "Where's Waldo?" I agree with the others - the toning looks more problematic although probably MA.

  • CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,524 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018 11:06PM

    A wheel mark can vanish looking at the coin straight on but if you tilt it at an angle to a single light source it should jump.out at you. Toning can make this a bit more difficult but the PC desk it crossed seemed to see what he thought was a wheel mark. I would check these areas out first...

    The more you VAM..
  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I SEE NOTHING as said by Sgt Schultz! (Hogans Heros)

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  • batumibatumi Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @coinhack said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    @asheland said:
    Wheel mark on a Silver Eagle That's a first! :D

    Yeah, I don’t think these were ever machine counted!

    Nor was the 1857 gold French 20 Franc that I submitted and came back Genuine - Wheel Mark.
    I wasn't even aware they had machine counters in 1857.

    They didn’t, but in the 1.6 centuries since they did. In the Y2K bullion madness we were selling sovereigns and 20 Francs in 1,000 coin lots, sometimes several lots in a day, and when Brinks would deliver them to us we would run them through our coin counter before delivering them to the customers.

    Wow! That is a lot of gold, Captain!

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes! I found the wheel mark!
    It's in the rays of the sun up towards the flag. Can't see it on the coin, but can see it in the trueview blown up images.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fivecents said:
    Yes! I found the wheel mark!
    It's in the rays of the sun up towards the flag. Can't see it on the coin, but can see it in the trueview blown up images.

    @fivecents Are you talking about this (circled)?

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:

    @fivecents said:
    Yes! I found the wheel mark!
    It's in the rays of the sun up towards the flag. Can't see it on the coin, but can see it in the trueview blown up images.

    @fivecents Are you talking about this (circled)?

    YES! Yes that is the wheel mark @Hemispherical...got to be it.

  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wait, you can zoom in on those?

    Who knew?

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018 6:10AM

    @DollarAfterDollar said:
    Wait, you can zoom in on those?

    Who knew?

    I don't know how to post it zoomed. It really pops out at you zoomed.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Without the markups.

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:

    Without the markups.

    YES....YES...YES.
    Thar she blows!!

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's very hard to see on the coin itself. Two non mustard stained dealers couldn't even find the wheel mark.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018 8:16AM

    @ms70 said:
    I'm not buying those are wheel marks.

    Just in case, it's been nice knowing you all.

    If PCGS said the coin has a wheel mark, IT DOES! Grading services are not in the business to piss all over our coins. I can find a problem (BY MY STUPID AND UNREALISTIC STANDARDS) deserving a "details" label on at least 20% of the coins I see straight graded at shows. My personal wacky grading would ruin a coin business!

    We are not going to learn anything from that image. The only provable thing is the coin has some contact marks and toning. The ONLY important thing in this discussion is that the owner of the coin learn what a wheel mark is and can find it on that toned coin! Obviously, it is difficult. Professionals miss them all the time on untoned coins. That's why more than one person grades a coin.

  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭✭

    @fivecents said:

    @Hemispherical said:

    Without the markups.

    YES....YES...YES.
    Thar she blows!!

    As others have stated, those are not wheelmarks

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  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,159 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The middle of the up and down part of the L has a mark similar to wheel marks. Is the middle of one letter enough to get the a coin genuine?

  • StratStrat Posts: 612 ✭✭✭

    A wheel mark occurs in a coin counting machine when the rubber wheels of the machine scrape a coin's surface. They appear as shiny hairlines that are concentrated in a path on the coin's surface where the rubber wheel scraped the coin. These hairlines are sometimes easy to miss but are detectable under magnification and when the coin is rotated under a light. I can' t imagine someone running ASE's through a coin counter, I mean how hard is it to count and stack 20 coins in a tube??? I suppose anything is possible though.

  • StratStrat Posts: 612 ✭✭✭

    I thought you were gonna show us a Walker, which sometimes are found with wheel marks, which you don't want to submit to a grading service (been there, done that)!

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018 11:34AM

    @davewesen said:
    The middle of the up and down part of the L has a mark similar to wheel marks. Is the middle of one letter enough to get the a coin genuine?

    Good Point.
    PCGS gets picky (as they should) when it comes to the devices.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wheel marks can be hard to image, especially the minor ones. I'll post some images this coming week.

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