The case for Roger Staubach as the greatest QB ever...
Skin2
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Yes, another one of these threads.
There are probably a lot of things people didn't know about Staubach. For instance, did you know that he was the only Super Bowl QB to fight in a war? He spent one year in Vietnam in command of 41 men. As a result of his military career, Staubach was not able to join the NFL until age 27, and wasn't able to become a starter until of age 29.
While this is not a case of "What if" he had not been obligated to the military, it will be a center piece in what he was able to do in a shortened career compared to other QB's with the luxury of having more time to accomplish achievements. For instance, Tom Brady has gone to eight Super Bowls compared to Staubach's four as a starter. Brady did that in 16 seasons as a starter, while Staubach accomplished his in eight seasons as a starter. This isn't a math laden exercise, but the point is there to see.
There is a lot of talk about how different the era's are to compare QB. Two key differences are: the ease of which it is to put up passing numbers in today's game, and the physical protections quarterbacks receive in today's game compared to the 1970's.
It is the QB protection that I want to focus on because that protection lends itself for QB's now to play in more games in a season, and in more seasons...by virtue of them not getting physically beat up as much. I don't want to dwell on who would do what in which era, etc...but I do want to point out that the physical nature of the game in Staubach's era did prevent him from playing more and longer than he did.
For example, Roger Staubach suffered 20 concusions in his career, six of which knocked him out. He also lost a season due to a separated shoulder. In 1978 and 1979 he was the leagues highest rated passer, and he declined the Cowboys offer to extend his contract for the safety of retirement.
In fact, he was the leagues highest rated passer four times. Only Steve Young has as many or more league leading titles as that. Staubach did that in only eight years as a starter.
Staubach reached the Super Bowl in HALF the years he was a starter, and he was the highest rated passer in HALF the years he was the starter. Is there any other QB in the Super Bowl era that could say the same? No. That is unique to Staubach. Staubach also had the highest QB rating of any of the 1970's QB's.. He also appeared in the most Super Bowls compared to any other QB in his era(Tied).
Staubach appeared in the most Super Bowls in his era
Staubach had the highest QB rating in his era
Staubach led the league in QB rating the most times in his era
Staubach had the highest QB winning percentage in his era, going 85-29(close second to Tom Brady for all-time W% in Super Bowl era).
....and he did all that with only eight years as a starter. No other QB in super bowl era history can boast that level of dominance.
Of course, many will point out that he lost two of those Super Bowls. Fair enough. However, he lost them to one of the best teams in the history of the league(both of them to the Steelers). Maybe the best single team ever. No other losing Super Bowl QB can make that claim either 
. I wonder how much a Jackie Smith dropped TD pass vs the Steelers has changed the perception of many 
Aside from his elite passing records, he also chipped in 2,200 yards rushing in eight seasons, including 20 rushing TD's...making him an elite multi-threat QB....another aspect most the other greats he will be compared to do not possess.
How about intangibles?
We already pointed out that he was a naval commander. That speaks volumes in of itself. However, it is the nicknames that were given to him by his peers that are the most telling:
Roger the Dodger
Captain America
Captain Comeback
......I don't think I can expound on those last two nicknames any further than what they already say about him.
Comments
Good points. As a Vikings fan I vividly remember how good he was against my Purple Gang!
It really is actually all math
All this GOAT talk is silly , football is a team sport.
The only GOAT that matters is the greatest "team" of all time , and there are too many variables to determine that.
He created the term "Hail Mary" with a game winning TD against the Vikes in a playoff game.
What happened there
I would put the 92-93 Cowboys as the best team ever and the 70's Steeler's #2.
There was one interview with Staubach where they were comparing him to Namath and Namath's persona/lifestyle.
Staubach said something along the lines of.....'I like to have sex too. It feels great! I just happen to do it with one woman as opposed to many. Same thing." I thought it captured him well.
Great write up as usual Skin. I think Staubach is in the conversation for “Greatest NFL American”. I don’t consider him in the conversation as the “GOAT” though, unfortunately all the variables surrounding his military service, late career entry and having an unbelievable supporting cast are all part of the conversation right wrong or indifferent. I’m a huge Staubach fan and think he was one of the top 10 best QB’s to play the game.
Len Dawson was the highest rated passer six times.
You incorrectly stated that Steve Young, who also has six, was the only QB with as many or more
than Staubachs' four highest rated passer titles.
Yes, Dawson is another QB that get's looked over.
Those six passer titles for Dawson all occurred in the AFL before the schedules merged. Even though they played a couple Super Bowls by then, the schedules still had not merged until 1970. So those are AFL only passer titles, not the full schedule of the NFL. So he was the best in THAT league playing only the teams in that league, and with only 9 other starting QB's to compete against for the passer title.
It is still impressive, but not quite as impressive having to compete against the best of the NFL regularly and trying to beat out 27 other QB's for a passer title like Staubach did, instead of just nine other QB's as Dawson was compared to....hence why I am only looking at NFL Super Bowl era quarterbacks.
For instance, in these four years where you credit Dawson as having the best passer rating, he actually didn't, because these guys in the NFL were higher:
In 1968 Starr had a QB rating of 104.3 compared to Dawson's 'league leading' 98.6.
In 1967 Jurgensen had a QB rating of 87.3 compared to Dawson's 'league leading' 83.7.
In 1966 Starr had a QB rating of 105 compared to Dawson's 'league leading' 101.
In 1965 Unitas had a QB rating of 97 compared to Dawson's 'league leading' 81.
So, just no.
Dawson actually has ZERO NFL passer rating titles.
So I am still correct
Fine, then I wold like to nominate Steve Young as GOAT. He has six passing titles, or as you so eloquently put it, or didn't put it:
****In fact, he was the leagues highest rated passer four times. Only Steve Young has as many or more league leading titles as that. Staubach did that in only eight years as a starter.****
More, skin, six is more than four!
With passer rating titles so hard to win, maybe a lot more weight should be applied to them. Steve Young
dominated that category like no one else, including Staubach.
Steve Young was a great QB and was also mobile. He had some wasted years on crap teams. It's hard telling what his career would have looked like if he had played with S.F. all of those years.
who cares about passer rating? Aaron Rodgers is way up there in passer rating but cant stay healthy , what good does it do him?
Good point
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Not to discredit Roger but the year he spent in Vietnam was working in a warehouse far from harms way.
Doc Blanchard flew 84 combat missions over N Vietnam.
Staubach clearly was better than Dawson. Who else but Joe Montana would you want playing for your team in the super bowl? The leadership of Staubach has no paper figures but factored in the Cowboys success.
I rate him in the top 5. He was such a great athlete that he is one of the QB's that really could have acceled in todays game more so than his contemporaries.
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Staubach was great, but there are too many "what ifs" here to make him the GOAT. You are giving a pass for his years of military service where you assume that he would have been just as good then as he was later. Play on the field is what counts.
Some might have said the Warren Spaun would have been much higher in the all times wins category for pitchers had he been able to do more before he was 25 years old. Evidence has shown that some young pitchers damage their arms before they reach 25 and don't have much a future after that. The same might have been true for Spaun. You can't assume that he might have compiled 70 and 80 wins had he been active as a younger man.
I agree he had six....and stated so, lol. There was no eloquence intended for young. So you trying to add that fact like it is a 'burn', because you were upset that you weren't familiar with the history with Dawson, kind of falls short.
THe two parts missing from Young compared to Staubach are:
1)Leadership qualities. Young doesn't compare to Staubach. THats not a knock on Young, because nobody really compares to Staubach there.
2) Young only got to the Super Bowl once. There are debates as whether Super Bowls or winning should matter or not, but when I see many very intelligent people putting weight into that aspect, and I see that passer stats are not the final word in a debate, I chose to include both aspects........which is why I said:
Staubach appeared in the most Super Bowls in his era
Staubach had the highest QB rating in his era
Staubach led the league in QB rating the most times in his era
Staubach had the highest QB winning percentage in his era, going 85-29(close second to Tom Brady for all-time W% in Super Bowl era).
and his leadership abilities and intangibles...
Captain America
Captain Comeback
......I don't think I can expound on those last two nicknames any further than what they already say about him.
Is the same true for Young? That isn't a knock on Young because nobody else really can encompass every quarterback aspect to that degree that Staubach did. Stauabch knocks every criteria out of the park.
Staubach truly is on the Mount Rushmore of quarterbacks...the other three spots you can fight for if you wish. Brady has a spot on MT Rushmore too, so that leave two spots to fight for. Using similar criteria, Montana gets the third spot. So only one spot to fight for. With all due respect, those three spots aren't necessarily in a particular order. For the final spot it is either one old school guy like Unitas, or someone like Manning....but in the spirit of this thread, it is Super Bowl era QB's.
PS NONE OF THAT EVEN HAS TO DO WITH THE MILITARY SERVICE. He has enough merit without even considering the time lost to military aspect. It is just more impressive that he was able to get to the most super bowls and have most passing titles in his era despite missing five years due to military service and choosing early retirement.
I was familiar with the history of Dawson, just didn't think it mattered what league he played in.
He clearly dominated the AFL.
He was similiar to Staubach in that he didn't become a starting NFL QB until about age 27, in
Dawsons' case lost a lot of good years sitting on the bench.
I never said I thought he was better than Staubach, just has more passer rating titles, which he does, with six.
I don't really think Steve Young is GOAT, but was better than Staubach, as is Brady, Montana, Peyton Manning,
and Drew Brees.
Skin, you said......
__Captain America
Captain Comeback
......I don't think I can expound on those last two nicknames any further than what they already say about him.__
Could you expound a little more, because profootball reference has Roger with 13 comebacks so I quickly checked
another QB known for comebacks, Joe Montana, and he is listed with 26 comebacks.
Unfortunately, some of those guys are lacking in the complete measure of QB.
Montana was amazing. Belongs on Mt Rushmore.
Actually, I would have you expound on that. Do you have the comeback opportunities to get a better reading of that?
Not Montanta, but for example, If player X had 50 opportunities to make a game winning drive and he delivered on 20 of them, and player B had 30 opportunities to make a game winning drive and he delivered on 18 of them...you get the picture.
Also, can you quantify each opportunity? For instance, if player A has 65 seconds to go 90 yards for his comeback opportunity and Player B has two minutes to go 75 yards...would you or anyone sanely rate those the same??
Also, are the passing rules the same? It is quite easy to go 80 yards in a minute now than it was to go 80 yards in a minute before 1978
But it is moot, as I didn't give Staubach that name. His peers did(before Joe Montana existed in the pro football world, lol). That is what they thought of Staubach and it is actually something statistics cannot measure, and for a quarterback, statistics only tell part of the story....hence why a complete measure of a QB includes more than pure statistics. Football stats are certainly a big part of the story, but it isn't like baseball hitting stats where they are as linear and as valid. They play a part, but aren't the entire play
Like I said, Captain America and Captain Comeback, given by his peers, tells more about the man as QB than anyone can expound upon.
Staubach will be receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/sports/2018/11/10/roger-staubach-among-president-trumps-first-medal-freedom-honorees
Wow, very nice honor. It is nice to see an athlete represent athletes in a good way, because way too many athletes are not worth recognizing regardless what they did on the field.
Staubach always choked against the Steelers. Regular season and Super Bowls. I would put him in the top 15 or 20.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Steelers were a great team....they did get a lot of help with steroids, but great nonetheless. With a better quarteback they would have six or seven super bowl wins.
The Cowboys would have won that 2nd SB with the Steelers....if not for Jackie Smith and the BOGUS PI against Dallas on Swann.
The Steelers QB was always good enough to beat the crackboys
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
He was a good enough compliment to the team no doubt. Its too bad they couldn't take advantage of the steroids and that team and get the seven super bowls a better QB would have delivered. They literally carried Bradshaw to the first two Super Bowls.
Whats Roger's excuse then? He played on the best 70's NFC team of the decade. Stupid comment considering no QB has won 6 let alone 7 SB's.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
They literally carried Bradshaw to the first two Super Bowls
Steelers were a better team(despite Bradshaw)...don't have an excuse. The better team won.
Staubach's team's great too. Just lost two games to another great team. Happens.
That's right. Bradshaw 2 time super bowl MVP.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Yes he was. Congrats.
He also road the coattails for two Super Bowls. COngrats to his teammates for those.
Yes, I realize nobody has won six or seven, but Brady has five. With that Steeler team, that was best chance for six or seven, but their QB wasn't good enough.
I don't know how old you are, but if you saw the 1979 SB, you would realize Dallas should have won that one.....easy.
Yes, same as Eli Manning. Sometimes happens with inferior QB's in the league. Manning's are actually more impressive because he did it with less supporting cast, and wasn't on the best team in the league.
Like Bradhshaw, Eli Manning is lacking in too many other key areas to be mentioned with the greats like Staubach or Brady.
Nah, the cowboys QB was never good enough to beat the Steelers. He just wasnt good enough. He was no Montana or Brady.
Bradshaw was better. How many MVP's did Roger win?
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Sorry Garnette,
I already put all the stuff up at the top that Staubach did that nobody else could. There is no need to expound any further on that, especially to someone who is biased. Football isn't our national past time. Baseball isn't our national past time.
Bias is our national past time. I like exposing bias.
Staubach was both elite in individual performance and team performance. Only a handful can say the same.....and Bradshaw was not one of them.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Even those steroids that Bradshaw took could not get him to that level. So you are now free to bash Bradshaw for taking steroids as you have for any baseball player that took them.
Decided to look at a year by year comparison between Roger and Fran Tarkenton during the years they were both playing.
I looked at Completion%, Yards, TDs, INTs, AY/A (adjusted yards gained per pass attempt) QB Rate and to a slightly lesser degree, team records/accomplishments.
1971 Roger was better. (Best QB in league) and wins SB. Fran plays for a terrible Giants team.
1972 Fran returns to Minnesota. Roger hurt, Fran wins by default.
1973 Fran very slightly better, beats Dallas in playoffs, loses SB to Miami.
1974 Fran was better, Roger has his worst year (injured?). Vikings lose SB to Pittsburgh.
1975 Fran was better (MVP), Roger's "Hail Mary" beats best Vikings team of the era. Dallas loses SB to Pittsburgh.
1976 Fran was better. Vikings lose SB to Oakland.
1977 Roger was better, Beats Vikings in Playoffs and wins SB.
1978 Roger was better. Lose to Pittsburgh in SB
You could argue that Roger had a better 1973 but the other years are pretty obvious.
From 1973-1978 Vikings won their division every year, Cowboys won it every year but 1974, Vikings could not get it done in SB competition. Miami crushed them, lost to a great Steelers team and to a not that great Raiders team.
Dallas was able to win 2 of 4 Super Bowls.
Roger had Bob Hayes, Drew Pearson, Golden Richards, to throw to, Calvin Hill, Robert Newhouse then Tony Dorsett in his backfield. Other than Chuck Foreman for 5 (good) years, try to name any great skill position players for Minnesota.
Tarkenton NEVER gets any consideration as a GOAT candidate, but he finished his career as the leader in every major QB category.
If you want to be entertained, look at some of the old footage of him running for his life, he is certainly the GOAT of avoiding defensive lineman!
Steelers TEAM was good enough to go 4-0 in SB during this era. Bradshaw was a good QB, not great.
you left out Fran's stellar performance as a tv host
Nice write up!
Not convinced (at all) but a really well written argument.
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Those 3 SB losses really hurt. I realize how much weight you put there.
You can look back to the first half of Fran's career and see that he played for two of the worst teams of that era. Expansion Vikings, and when the Vikes started getting better(Fran 2X pro bowl), he was traded to the Giants who were worse (1-12-1 in 1966). During ALL those years Fran had exactly nobody in the backfield and the same to throw to. Still, he made the pro bowl 4 out of 5 seasons in NY.
Was meant for both you and Skin2.
I like reading both of you, though I may not agree.
PS - While Captain Comeback is nice nickname, I believe ‘Captain America’ had as much to do with Staubach being the captain of ‘America’s Team’ as it did any allusion to the superhero.
That takes nothing away from the fabulous player that he was and he was as respected and admired as any pro football player I can ever remember for who he was on and off the field.
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Not a chance Bradshaw was better than Staubach.
I won't argue against Staubach because he's as good a candidate for the impossible-to-determine GOAT title as anyone, and also one of my favorite players. But I will offer another candidate, who I know I've mentioned before. Just a couple high level points in comparison to Staubach:
And that ultimately is why identifying GOAT candidates in the NFL is so much harder than in MLB. The Cowboys were just a flat-out better TEAM than the Bengals. What would Staubach's stats have looked like with (I looked it up) Howard Fest and Dave Lapham as his guards instead of Pro-Bowlers Blaine Nye and John Niland? There's just no way to know, but I remember watching the Cowboys in those years and being impressed with how good they all were; when I watched the Bengals I was impressed with how good Anderson was because there was nobody else to watch. Where the Cowboys had Calvin Hill and later Tony Dorsett, the Bengals had Boobie Clark and Pete Johnson. It has to be harder to be the QB with Boobie behind you than with Calvin HIll behind you. How much harder? I have no idea, but whatever the answer is, it's part of the GOAT QB equation.
No, he never won a Super Bowl, but he took a team to the Super Bowl once that had gone 6-10 the year before. QBs on great teams never do that, because they never have to do that. If offered the choice I might still take Staubach over Anderson, but I'd have to think about it. Great QBs sometimes get stuck on bad teams, and when you're thinking of GOAT candidates, think about them, too.
I remember Mr. Anderson well. Kind of like Dan Marino before Dan Marino. Also like Kurt Warner was when he was great.
But Warner won a SB.
I t does mean something.
Head to head - Bradshaw
MVP's - Bradshaw
Regular season stats - Staubach
Post season performances - Bradshaw
Yes, Bradshaw was better
And yes skin, head to head matters in every sport. The QB gets the most credit when his team wins. If Ken Anderson won a super bowl, he would be in the HOF.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Oh my god here we go, Dallas shows up with his nonsense and is talking about Ken Anderson in the GOAT discussion and Garnett Guy is following him like a moth to a fire. . 🙄
You ask any knowledgeable Football guy and not one of them would ever agree with you. Like NONE