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JPM metals trader pleads guilty to futures price manipulation

derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

Conspiracy theory fact

"An ex-J.P. Morgan Chase trader has admitted to manipulating the U.S. markets of an array of precious metals for about seven years -- and he has implicated his supervisors at the bank. As part of his plea, Edmonds said that from 2009 through 2015 he conspired with other J.P. Morgan traders to manipulate the prices of gold, silver, platinum and palladium futures contracts on exchanges run by the CME Group."

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Comments

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 24,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    stock prices are manipulated too

    Fake orders are placed above or below market to influence it in one direction or another

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • OPAOPA Posts: 16,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is always a relatively small group of "bad apples" attempting to manipulate just about anything. My question is: did this manipulation have a major impact on the PM market or not. There must be a ton of manipulation going on in the PM markets for the last year or so, all downward. Can't wait for the manipulators to reverse course. ;)

    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2018 9:01AM

    posted to educate the "there is no PM price manipulation" crowd. The fact that it involves numerous JPM traders and supervisors indicates more than a small crowd of bad apples. What are the odds that JPM is the only outfit involved?

    Of important note is the fact that the indictment is the result of the FBI and Justice Dept. efforts. Appears the Commodity Futures Trading Commission's (CTFC) enforcement division remains asleep at the wheel.

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  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Got anything for the benefit of the, "sure, there's some Manipulation, but So What?" crowd?

    So What? as in... so... what?

    Why does this matter, and if it matters, why doesn't it make us want to Sell our metal and don't be involved at all in a corrupt market?

    Seems anything but bullish for PMs

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2018 9:05AM

    First there was the "no manipulation" crowd. Then they became the "some manipulation" crowd. Give them time, while slower than most they are evolving.

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  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2018 9:15AM

    @Baley said:

    Why does this matter, and if it matters, why doesn't it make us want to Sell our metal and don't be involved at all in a corrupt market?

    It matters because it is offering you suppressed prices. There was a time when the US government dictated the price of gold would be $35.

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  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Toward what, "It's ALL Manipulated?"?

    Grant it, for sake of conversation..

    Same question, so what?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2018 9:44AM

    what

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  • rickoricko Posts: 77,889 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even more concerning ... What if JPM was coordinating with other big players.... Either way, there is always the likelihood of such activity.... Cheers, RickO

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

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  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So where was the CFTC ?

    Timbuk3
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Timbuk3 said:
    So where was the CFTC ?

    At dinner with JPM

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  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 24,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bullish for gold?

    Not in the last couple of months

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OPA said:
    Can't wait for the manipulators to reverse course. ;)

    Like the "no manipulation" crowd here?

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  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it trades electronically you better believe it's being manipulated.

    Problem I have is the pumpers are always claiming manipulators only send the price lower. Manipulation works in both directions.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So the mere fact that if JPM was doing it, there was sufficient money involved to make it attractive to JPM to risk prosecution. Winners and losers. Who do you think were the losers?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 39,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is JPM just the tip of the ice berg?

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @Baley said:

    Why does this matter, and if it matters, why doesn't it make us want to Sell our metal and don't be involved at all in a corrupt market?

    It matters because it is offering you suppressed prices.

    Yes...no more suppression. Whoohoo!!! Wait!!! These guys were caught in 2015. But, but, but....silver is currently trading about 10% lower than it was in 2015. How, how, how can this be???


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    Yes...no more suppression.

    But you said, for a long time now, that there is no silver or gold manipulation. Baby steps, you'll get there.

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  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    Yes...no more suppression.

    But you said, for a long time now, that there is no silver or gold manipulation. Baby steps, you'll get there.

    Thats your manipulation? Lol

    Why, 3 years later, is silver the same price if this "manipulation" supressed prices so?

    Hey derryb....BOO!!!


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

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  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You'd think the "supression" would have stopped by now...yet here we are banging at the same price as 3 years ago. I wish you'd be right just once derryb, just once.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

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  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018 8:42PM

    Ted Butler: The Seriousness Of The Latest Silver Scandal

    "It’s been reported by Bloomberg that the Justice Department asked a judge overseeing a civil antitrust case against JPMorgan to postpone the case for six months “to protect the integrity” of its ongoing criminal probe. This indicates that the Justice Department is serious about pursing the matter of a silver price manipulation and JPMorgan’s involvement."

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  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    CFTC, SEC and FINRA are all toothless regulators and are blindfolded as they perform their "oversight". No surprise here, all markets are manipulated...

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 41,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018 5:32AM

    Even with manipulation, opportunities exist, to make money. Those silly manipulators won't stop us.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 28,548 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    Ted Butler: The Seriousness Of The Latest Silver Scandal

    "It’s been reported by Bloomberg that the Justice Department asked a judge overseeing a civil antitrust case against JPMorgan to postpone the case for six months “to protect the integrity” of its ongoing criminal probe. This indicates that the Justice Department is serious about pursing the matter of a silver price manipulation and JPMorgan’s involvement."

    WOW!

    Winner of the ANA's 2020 Heath Literary Award, Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Award, and Lifetime Achievement Award. Winner NLG 2020 Best Numismatic Feature Article, U.S.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Even with manipulation, opportunities exist, to make money. Those silly manipulators won't stop us.

    but they are slowing us down.

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  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018 8:16PM

    Why does this matter, and if it matters, why doesn't it make us want to Sell our metal and don't be involved at all in a corrupt market?
    Seems anything but bullish for PMs

    It matters if you are holding bullion and the corruption is finally rooted out. That would be bullish.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Why does this matter, and if it matters, why doesn't it make us want to Sell our metal and don't be involved at all in a corrupt market?
    Seems anything but bullish for PMs

    It matters if you are holding bullion and the corruption is finally rooted out. That would be bullish.

    That doesn't really seem to be a prudent investment strategy. Is hoping for this a "fundamental"?


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @jmski52 said:
    Why does this matter, and if it matters, why doesn't it make us want to Sell our metal and don't be involved at all in a corrupt market?
    Seems anything but bullish for PMs

    It matters if you are holding bullion and the corruption is finally rooted out. That would be bullish.

    That doesn't really seem to be a prudent investment strategy. Is hoping for this a "fundamental"?

    probably the only strategy for the poor suckers who got in before knowing they were playing against a stacked deck.

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  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018 1:48PM

    It matters if you are holding bullion and the corruption is finally rooted out. That would be bullish.

    That doesn't really seem to be a prudent investment strategy. Is hoping for this a "fundamental"?

    There's the financial industry, and there's math. I choose math over the financial industry. Math is more trustworthy. The financial industry has no integrity and they change the rules whenever they are losing.

    probably the only strategy for the poor suckers who got in before knowing they were playing against a stacked deck.

    There's no time limit on the decision to hold bullion instead of paper or electrons. Whether the deck is stacked or not, bullion is real, and accountable. Not much else is, especially paper and electrons. Simple as that.

    The fundamental value of precious metals is that as long as you have physical possession, they remain yours.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One problem for physical silver is the yuge overhead supply...

    I'd wager there are a lot of ounces that are for sale in the $20-35 range. Right here on the forum😉

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    30 years is max what will be the sentence?

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Math...don't know what numbers you use but I do think 15 is less than 50.

    Derryb....those poor sucker's were warned. Have no sympathy for them.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What math were this guy's bosses using? "Screw the clients - it's okay as long as you don't get caught." That math?

    Former JP Morgan trader pleads guilty to manipulating US metals markets for years
    John Edmonds, 36, pleaded guilty to one count of commodities fraud and one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud, price manipulation and spoofing.
    Edmonds, a 13-year J.P. Morgan veteran, said that he learned how to manipulate prices from more senior traders and that his supervisors at the firm knew of his actions.

    This problem goes away when average in over time and take delivery. And math, yes - 15 is less than 50. Know anyone that bought at 50? Me neither, although I did sell some at 36. 15 isn't a bad speculation.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bought all the way up to 38, but they were cool bullion coins and bars for my collection of sizes and designs

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There's nothing dumb about buying when prices are somewhat depressed. Collections have their own justifications and criteria for purchase.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

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  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018 9:12AM

    Let's wait for cohodk to chime in that Bill Black is a conspiracy nut.

    Martin Armstrong has some interesting things to say about the Euro, and capital flows in his October interview, so stocks may not be an entirely horrible choice. Except that you still depend on the system for execution, stability and integrity.

    Tough choices, all around.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Let's wait for cohodk to chime in that Bill Black is a conspiracy nut.

    He can try, but he's less than gum on the bottom of the shoe of the federal regulator who was a central figure in exposing Congressional corruption during the Savings and Loan Crisis. Black has written much about the failure to prosecute the 2008 crisis crooks. Would love to see him head up the CTFC.

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  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 24,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I speculate this is all speculation about speculation.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    What math were this guy's bosses using? "Screw the clients - it's okay as long as you don't get caught." That math?

    Former JP Morgan trader pleads guilty to manipulating US metals markets for years
    John Edmonds, 36, pleaded guilty to one count of commodities fraud and one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud, price manipulation and spoofing.
    Edmonds, a 13-year J.P. Morgan veteran, said that he learned how to manipulate prices from more senior traders and that his supervisors at the firm knew of his actions.

    This problem goes away when average in over time and take delivery. And math, yes - 15 is less than 50. Know anyone that bought at 50? Me neither, although I did sell some at 36. 15 isn't a bad speculation.

    So silver is speculative? You've been telling me it's a promise all these years. And an insurance policy. Why would anyone want a speculative insurance policy? Sounds sketchy to me.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You've been telling me it's a promise all these years.

    Not true. There are no guarantees and you are putting words in my mouth, which doesn't help your credibility. Insurance policy - yeah, an insurance policy against government and banking malfeasance. Speculative? Yes, always.

    Get your story straight before you put words in my mouth.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    You've been telling me it's a promise all these years.

    Not true. There are no guarantees and you are putting words in my mouth, which doesn't help your credibility. Insurance policy - yeah, an insurance policy against government and banking malfeasance. Speculative? Yes, always.

    Get your story straight before you put words in my mouth.

    It's easy to search these forums and see that you use the words promise and insurance quite frequently. CRS is a common disease. ;)

    I'm really not one on this forum who needs to prove credibility. Sorry.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018 9:55AM

    It's easy to search these forums and see that you use the words promise and insurance quite frequently

    I call BS. Find such a quote where I use the word promise in relation to future precious metals prices. Try not to take my quotes out of context.

    And note that my use of the word insurance refers to a specific type of insurance, which is the nature of most types of insurance. Surely you understand what insurance is.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    It's easy to search these forums and see that you use the words promise and insurance quite frequently

    I call BS. Surely you understand what insurance is.

    Verily. I wish you did.

    Just as derryb talks of "naked short selling", he and those he propagates, try to portray a simple concept into something it isnt. It's all fake news.

    PMs will rally when demand exceeds supply and relative value is extreme. Like you say, this isnt rocket science.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PMs will not rally without a paper rally. Paper is currently controlled by those naked shorts. The supply of shorts is extreme.

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  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    PMs will not rally without a paper rally. Paper is currently controlled by those naked shorts. The supply of shorts is extreme.

    Another squeaky clean brain.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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