1894-S Morgan Dollar - Contemporary Counterfeit?

Connecticoin · October 30, 2018 8:33PM

I have an 1894-S Morgan Dollar which was bagged by PCGS as counterfeit. The coin has the correct weight (26.7g) so I wonder if this was contemporary counterfeit. Also, any guesses on how it was produced? Die transfer? The details look somewhat "fatter" and "mushier" than a genuine coin.

TomB · October 30, 2018 8:49PM

I would be surprised if it were a contemporary counterfeit if the weight is correct and it is also 90% silver.

RogerB · October 30, 2018 8:51PM

Modern counterfeit.

AUandAG · October 30, 2018 9:13PM

Modern chinese junk.

bob

rte592 · October 30, 2018 9:24PM

I assume it doesn't stick to a magnet.
How's the dia and thickness?
They are usually a bit smaller in dia and thicker.
Probably made from brass.

BlindedByEgo · October 30, 2018 9:37PM

Seems to me that a "contemporary counterfeit" would be sub-weight (and perhaps corrupted material), as the whole purpose of period counterfeits was to a) pass easily in commerce and b) cost less to produce than face value.

Of course, I could be wrong... But I don't think so.

mannie gray · October 30, 2018 11:01PM

@AUandAG said:
Modern chinese junk.

bob

My feelings too.

dcarr · October 30, 2018 11:26PM

@BlindedByEgo said:
Seems to me that a "contemporary counterfeit" would be sub-weight (and perhaps corrupted material), as the whole purpose of period counterfeits was to a) pass easily in commerce and b) cost less to produce than face value.

Of course, I could be wrong... But I don't think so.

At the time, the free market price of the silver content in a Morgan Dollar was about 35 to 50 cents. Many of the micro-o and "family" vintage counterfeits contain MORE silver than standard because the weight is close to correct and they are sterling (.925) fine.

PS:
My opinion, based on the pictures, is that the OP coin is a modern manufacture and does not contain any silver.

Connecticoin · October 31, 2018 6:30AM

@dcarr said:

@BlindedByEgo said:
Seems to me that a "contemporary counterfeit" would be sub-weight (and perhaps corrupted material), as the whole purpose of period counterfeits was to a) pass easily in commerce and b) cost less to produce than face value.

Of course, I could be wrong... But I don't think so.

At the time, the free market price of the silver content in a Morgan Dollar was about 35 to 50 cents. Many of the micro-o and "family" vintage counterfeits contain MORE silver than standard because the weight is close to correct and they are sterling (.925) fine.

PS:
My opinion, based on the pictures, is that the OP coin is a modern manufacture and does not contain any silver.

I wonder why the weight (26.7g) is correct then? Would they bother to get the alloy of non-silver metal to weigh the same as a genuine coin?

ricko · October 31, 2018 6:38AM

Those who produced the coin would want it to be as close to authentic as possible...Do the diameter and thickness check out as well?? Have the metal analyzed...Cheers, RickO

CaptHenway · October 31, 2018 7:00AM

The wear patterns on it look intentional rather than from actual circulation. I would say modern counterfeit.

messydesk · October 31, 2018 7:15AM

I'll bet that if you give it an acetone bath, all the "aging" will come right off.

BillJones · October 31, 2018 7:22AM

I'd say that it is a modern Chinese product with a nice layer of their fake shoe polish type stuff to make it look "old." Another piece of Chinese excrement that is better made than some.

ElKevvo · October 31, 2018 7:24AM

I wonder why the weight (26.7g) is correct then? Would they bother to get the alloy of non-silver metal to weigh the same as a genuine coin?

If your going to spend the time engraving the die to fool people you might as well toy with the alloy to get the right weight too I would think. The goal is to pass the item off as genuine in looks and feel which includes the weight.

K

Connecticoin · October 31, 2018 7:28AM

@messydesk said:
I'll bet that if you give it an acetone bath, all the "aging" will come right off.

I did that about 10 years ago, and it pretty much had no effect (except to remove a tiny amount of PVC from storage in a crappy flip). Well, at the end of the day it was a relatively cheap ($40) learning experience.

Rittenhouse · October 31, 2018 7:34AM

IrishMikey · October 31, 2018 7:53AM

This is a better quality Chinese counterfeit. They have used an 'S' mint reverse for other dates, as well. There is some extra metal around and between OF on the reverse, which your coin appears to have. Another diagnostic is the "fishtail" effect on the bases of the letters in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I would keep it for reference, unless you can return it to the seller and get your money back.

Connecticoin · October 31, 2018 8:15AM

@IrishMikey said:
This is a better quality Chinese counterfeit. They have used an 'S' mint reverse for other dates, as well. There is some extra metal around and between OF on the reverse, which your coin appears to have. Another diagnostic is the "fishtail" effect on the bases of the letters in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I would keep it for reference, unless you can return it to the seller and get your money back.

Unfortunately, the seller does not have a 12 year return privilege. Although if I ever sold someone a coin that turned out to be fake and they tracked me down after 12 years, I would take it back for their perseverance!

BlindedByEgo · October 31, 2018 10:54AM

@dcarr said:

@BlindedByEgo said:
Seems to me that a "contemporary counterfeit" would be sub-weight (and perhaps corrupted material), as the whole purpose of period counterfeits was to a) pass easily in commerce and b) cost less to produce than face value.

Of course, I could be wrong... But I don't think so.

At the time, the free market price of the silver content in a Morgan Dollar was about 35 to 50 cents. Many of the micro-o and "family" vintage counterfeits contain MORE silver than standard because the weight is close to correct and they are sterling (.925) fine.

PS:
My opinion, based on the pictures, is that the OP coin is a modern manufacture and does not contain any silver.

So, even at full weight the contemporary counterfeit, if produced cheaply enough, passes both my a) and b) rationale above.

messydesk · October 31, 2018 11:16AM

@BlindedByEgo said:

@dcarr said:

@BlindedByEgo said:
Seems to me that a "contemporary counterfeit" would be sub-weight (and perhaps corrupted material), as the whole purpose of period counterfeits was to a) pass easily in commerce and b) cost less to produce than face value.

Of course, I could be wrong... But I don't think so.

At the time, the free market price of the silver content in a Morgan Dollar was about 35 to 50 cents. Many of the micro-o and "family" vintage counterfeits contain MORE silver than standard because the weight is close to correct and they are sterling (.925) fine.

PS:
My opinion, based on the pictures, is that the OP coin is a modern manufacture and does not contain any silver.

So, even at full weight the contemporary counterfeit, if produced cheaply enough, passes both my a) and b) rationale above.