Frequently seen die markers on authentic 1937-D 3-leggers
davewesen
Posts: 6,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
I remember a post by someone that said they know at least 6 die markers seen on most authentic 1937-d 3-leggers and they could tell if it was authentic without even looking at the reverse. I thought it was Insider2, but they disavow that claim. I bought this raw at auction, feeling confident it was authentic. Please add to or argue any on my list of markers.
OBVERSE
- small feather - almost a 2 3/4 feather as it is not attached at the base by the head
- back of upper neck - is mottled or moth eaten
- a reverse, upside down V sticking out in front of the first hair braid below the twine
- lower neck die crack, with couple breaks .. almost looks like a couple of pearls necklace
REVERSE
- arch spreading down below sheath in field
- Right Rear leg above hock is thinner than the left
- E Pluribus Unum is clearly separated from back of buffalo
- mintmark D size, shape and location
FINALLY, RIGHT FRONT LOWER LEG MISSING between knee and hoof
8
Comments
from PCGS CoinFacts
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/3982
I am glad you posted this. I saw the earlier thread mention the markers. Was it the 1917 cent? I was curious about the markers too. What is the sheath and arc?
Could you do a screenshot with highlights on markers?
Thanks again for making this thread.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
the sheath comes out of the middle of the belly
yosclimber shows photo pointing the arc (many call it pissing stream)
An easy way to remember the genuine article-"If the buffalo's not pissin' the leg ain't missin'. But the other die markers have to be there, too. It's actually an easy coin to authenticate with so many distinctive features. I have seen ONE genuine coin where that small feather was NOT detached from the neck but as a general rule that detached feather is a reliable marker.
Great diagnostics and the pictures will really help collectors (new and old).... Cheers, RickO
They call it "the potty" around here!
It is said that many of these were released here in Bozeman Montana. I do know that there was some type of "estate" auction here not that long ago and someone bought a roll of buffalo nickels out of it and half of them were 1937-D 3-legs. He made out quite well, so they are still to be found "in the wild"
Black Diamond is smaller on the 3-Leg. The area around him was heavily reworked.
Compare his "beard" with a normal Buff. Notice the difference.
The difference is quite obvious.
Pete
the difference between the distance from bottom of beard and tuft of grass?
I notice the nose is not complete on 3 leggers, like there was a ring that got pulled out.
You're right. That's part of the tip off.
Pete
Nice diagnostics. Great images. I love CU. Peace Roy
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Bump for info
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Thinks for the bump, I forgot all about this one discussion and will look for :
"a reverse, upside down V sticking out in front of the first hair braid below the twine."
"lower neck die crack, with couple breaks .. almost looks like a couple of pearls necklace..."
Can anyone add just one more "GREAT" diagnostic that is so obvious it is hardly ever mentioned? I'll send a counterfeit of my choice (in a yellow label slab) to the first correct answer. Unfortunately, I will not say what it is unless someone posts the correct answer. Don't worry, plenty of folks know about it so I expect a very quick winner!
What looks like a “urine” stream/cloud below the belly toward the rear legs.
Hemi got it. I'll add that Black Diamond is smaller, and his "Beard" is slightly different due to the reworking(s) done on the reverse.
Of course that means that "E PLURIBUS UNUM" appears farther away from the body.
..............And I believe that I was the one that said that a 3 Legger could be identified by Obverse only.
Pete
This: "Arch spreading down below sheath in field." I first heard Brian Silliman tell students in our Authentication Class: "If the bison ain't pissing, the leg ain't missing." LOL.
The 1937-D Buffalo has a more pointed Beard, most likely from where they ran the tool in to remove the clashed front leg. If this is the correct answer please give the Prize to a Young Person in your area.
I remember you saying that awhile back; my memory is somewhat working today.
@davewesen has it in the OP but stated a bit more PC.
I've pointed out altered 3L without looking at the rev, using the detached feather marker. This was mentioned in my book in 2006. The "pissin" thing will apply to all genuine coins but other dates, without missing design elements, may show something similar so it's best to match 3 or 4 different die markers. The beard tip on the left (as you're looking at the bison) is shorter than the one on the right is yet another marker. This variety has so many excellent die markers that anyone who has done their homework should never be fooled.
Can anyone add just one more "GREAT" diagnostic that is so obvious it is hardly ever mentioned?
How bout the round knob/dot on the rear leg knee???
How about the right front leg is missing between the knee and hoof?
There appears to be some small differences between some 3-legs I’m guessing it’s weather it’s an early die state or latter.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
I have looked at a few Buffalo nickels in my life, but it was not until I looked at the excellent pictures in this thread that I realized that the Mint Mark is left of center down there at the bottom. Close, but no cigar.
There are a lot of great diagnostics here several I never noticed. THANKS from all of us.
Now any of the following members who send me a SASE will receive one or more RAW C/F or altered coins for study.
@davewesen
@yosclimber
@koynekwest
@Aspie_Rocco
@BuffaloIronTail
@CaptHenway
@jabba
@ifthevamzarockin
@Hemispherical
@1Bufffan
@Namvet69
@dbldie55
@BillDugan1959
@ricko
F. Fazzari
Institute for Applied Numismatics
PO Box 1007
Tallevast, FL 34270
PS: "lower neck die crack, with couple breaks" I never saw this one but there is a "die state" with a break through the top horizontal braid knot.
@Insider2
Thanks! This was a very subtle giveaway prize.
What’s the estimated weight? So I can slap a bunch of stamps on the envelope.
@Insider2
Thanks will get one in the mail tomorrow.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Put just one, I'll make up the extra for the large, heavy box I'm sending...LOL. NOT!
I may have mentioned it, but no doubt your comments about being able to identify a 3-Legger by obverse only precede anything I ever made comment on, Ron.
Pete
Is there any reliable estimate as to how many of these 3 legged Buffs made it into circulation?
500, 5000, 50000?
Just trying to get some sense of how likely it would be to actually find one.
Yeah Pete-I pointed this out to a few flea market dealers who had altered 3 leggers back around 1989 or '90. I didn't get a courteous response.
Many of these were pulled from circulation shortly after they were minted. I'd imagine 2000-4000 might have been released but that a rough estimate. Their notoriety was widely recognized almost from the beginning.
I did some more digging, and this is the best I could find: https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/1937-d-three-legged-buffalo-stays-popular
According to that 2017 article, at least 15,000 have been found and graded.
So maybe that puts the total # releases into circulation around 20,000?
I've owned two 3-Leggers. The XF-40 I had was turned in and I purchased a real nice AU-50 from a family in Montana.
The coin was found and saved by the seller when they were first advertised. Those original coins were released in the areas around Montana and the Great Plains States. Quite fitting, actually, that the coins became popular and again "Roamed the Plains".
Sometimes flawed and worn out clashed dies are knowingly used far beyond their useful life at the Branch Mints. I don't personally believe that to be the case with the 3-Leg, though. It has been said that the alteration made was due to a hurried "Quick Fix" to repair a clashed die because there was a production target to be met by the shift.
All speculative, of course. But the above scenario has been mentioned previously.
I grew up as a young coin collector with the image of the 3-Leg presenting itself to me in the Red Book. It will always be part of the fond memories I have from that time.
Pete
@Insider2
Thank you for your most generous offer!
One of our YN that posts here might get more education from one of these coins, please give mine to someone you think would be good. It may help them to not make a bad purchase in the future.
I bought a very good 3 legger not long after I started collecting-it must have been around 1962-for the sum of $35. And I've cherried two, both from flea market vendors.
This is always great information!!! In 54 years of collecting and dealing, I have never owned, bought or sold a 1937 D 3 legged buffalo!
You should have offered a Dollar or two for the altered ones you discovered.
On second thought. No. They probably told you to GTFO.
Pete
Guess it’s not the Omega.
You will recognize my letter from the high quality calligraphy of my text.
Thank you for the learning opportunity
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
This has not arrived yet.
Just placed it in mail today, I was on vacation when you originally made this very generous offer. Thanks again
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
LOL. Vacation? VACATION? What's that? For years, the ANA Summer Seminar was my only vacation but I no longer have that.
Southwest airline miles got me to Hawaii for $22! Seven nights on Maui. The timing of the trip was not as good as I had hoped but it was a mostly fun adventure.
Vacation: alternate location orientation for the underemployed or those with “free” time.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
This was in a Whitman folder I received today in the correct slot. From the pictures I bid on, you couldn't see it. I didn't bid on it for this coin so it's considered gravy. Here are some pics of the diagnostics that are further up in this topic.
@Picker1954 pics of the underside of the buffalo. The missing leg portion looks altered.
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Naturally, it's a little banged up in that area. Here's another shot. The left side of the beard is shorter, like it should be.
Im going with altered.
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Always remember-if the buffalo ain't pissin' the leg ain't missin'. That is just one of many die markers on the variety.
Here's one that's almost always overlooked-a "detached" small feather on the obverse. If you could post a macro of the entire reverse it would be easier to determine it's genuiness.
Sorry, this is the best I can do with my old iPhone