@Ronyahski said:
I had this coin in hand and put a loupe to it, for quite a while. I'm sure I've studied more high-end toned Franklins than any collector, ever. A few thoughts.
For the old-time Franklin collectors who have responded here, I agree with you. Twenty years ago this coin technically is no better than a 66. Having said that, as specialist suggested, this coin is far better in person than the picture suggests. The hits are not as noticeable in hand, as the toning tends to exaggerate them in the picture.
I graded the coin 67 minus / A +. The letter grade is for eye appeal, and this coin has it. Spectacular. The toning is very unusual, nothing like a double mint set toner. It is one of those coins that is unbelievable when you first see it. The more I studied it, though, the more I was convinced that it is NT. The correct toning patterns are present. There is a lot that is right about the toning, and nothing that is wrong. Unusual, but not wrong. For instance, it is an unusual pattern to see darker purple colors outlining the bell, surrounded by lighter yellow, gold and blue on the bell and yoke. But the darker purple color is actually a lighter thin film of color on the coin than on the bell and yoke. The toning gets thicker near the rims. This indicates that the coin took on more of its color through direct contact with something, like envelope toning as specialist posits.
A few ask about the coin's time on the market. What I know is that I was offered the coin at, I think, $17k. I offered $8k or $10k, forget exactly. Same graded coins at auction are about $3k, so I thought my offer was strong. Would really like to hear the rest of the story.
" Interestingly enough this was a pop 1 for a long time and was the ONLY non pop top in the #1 LR registry set. High Desert owns it (the pop 1, not the LR set). Recently a few other pop 1's appeared that LR doesn't have (like the 63-d I posted about). I wonder if LR was one of the bidders. It sure might make all his other low pops at least seem more valuable."
I don't know this for certain, but I think it very very likely that LR was either the winner or the underbidder on this coin.
OMG, people are now sending me pics of what they think are equally toned coin. One collector came close, but no where near equal.
Compared to all others (and excluding pride of ownership) you are NOT going to see another toner like this. Its like the 80S M68+ Northern Lights that sold for a record price. Sure tons come close, but NONE are equal. That doe not make them worth 95% of what a coin just sold for
@Bigbuck1975 said:
Crazy part is I saw a video of it in a 66 holder. Guy sold it and got it into a 66+ holder, now it’s a 67+, expensive plastic for sure!!
I can understand if the grade had something to do with the price. It certainly would for me. It's not about any grade, but the top pop. Color commands a premium but color+top pop is a powerful combination.
ronyahski I agree with most in this thread as it concerns the toning. I've seen many toners. This coin follows proper toning progression and elevation chromatics. There are plenty of Morgans out there that look similar to this that would be called NT in a heartbeat without batting of an eyelash. The fact this is on a 1958 Philadelphia Mint Franklin Half Dollar is amazing. 1958-D come with toning like this every once in a while. Very, very rarely do 1958 Philadelphias come toned like this.
As to the price, it's a very lofty grade and very beautifully toned coin, rare for the date as already pointed out. With a PCGS price guide value of $13,000 currently, taking CAC into account, Secure into account, toning into account, I would honestly expect a coin like this to bring about 40k give or take 10k depending on who saw it. 3x guide. 2x guide if it were a D-mint because of rarity of color differential. The fact that this coin went for the price of my house is very, very hard to believe. AllCoinsRule brings up a point I had not thought about. Is this a record price not only for a Franklin as the Legend email said, but for a 1934-present coin?
And I've seen many toners. I've seen them sell at auction. I understand the mentality of the premiums they bring, but disagree with tradedollarnut people simply buy the color. Why not then look for a 65 or 66 with similar color and pay $5k? Oh, wait, that's because almost all of them have been upgraded due to gradeflation. Indeed, this coin used to be a 66 and a 66+ before it "became" a 67+. And who knows how many tries were in between those successful upgrades?
I have seen so many monster toners magically upgrade these past 10 years, it seriously makes me question the entire accuracy/consistency of the grading process. You can argue with that until you're blue in the face with me. However, we have all seen photographic evidence of very many upgrades on this board of 1 or 2 points. The proof is right there. I can understand a few examples upgrading from time to time. I have seen very many upgrade. I know of a 65+ to 68 upgrade on a Morgan Dollar.
Whether that's unfair to the person who owned it as a 66 or 66+, that's just the way coin grading goes. That's our hobby. That's life. We can make an existential argument life itself is not fair. That would be venturing OT. Insider2 and MrEureka, I agree with both of you here.
I think cnncoins has the best overall take here. It is good there is enthusiasm for truly rare coins. It is exciting and good overall for the hobby to see money like this still exists in the hobby.
That's my entire take here. Wish I would have arrived earlier for this topic.
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
Wow! Some of the most controversial threads on here have been on toned Frankies... To start off I would love to own the 58P beast and congrats to the new owner and the consignor! Some of the best toned coins on the planet have been showing up in the Legend Auctions and no surprise that their cutting edge marketing has been bringing the big toned players... This whole thing seems like Deja Vu to me where two Frankies that I purchased from a Teletrade Auction a few years back brought much attention... For those that are interested here is the link... And no they are not going anywhere as I love them! https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/817680/remember-these-two-frankies-thank-you-pcgs/p1 Unlike this 58P without me ever seeing it in hand, it looks to me like it is either album or mint set toned that has matured to the optimal result... Mine are obviously end of roll toned in comparison... What ever caused this toning and the proper progression of colors, and here is the key, the right colors! It`s obvious it was in the perfect conditions, undisturbed for many years... AB
Wow, just wow - I just keep thinking of the 1913 Liberty Nickel selling for $100,000 in the 1970s and now a 1958 Franklin goes for $130,000! I can see it now - the NEW Hawaii Five-O, "$130,000 Frankie"
Seems like we are in a period where there are a number of very wealthy collectors competing with each other for the top 0.1% of coins. I think this just reflects that there are more extremely wealthy people than there have ever been before.
@machoponcho said: "I have seen so many monster toners magically upgrade these past 10 years, it seriously makes me question the entire accuracy/consistency of the grading process. You can argue with that until you're blue in the face with me. However, we have all seen photographic evidence of very many upgrades on this board of 1 or 2 points. The proof is right there. I can understand a few examples upgrading from time to time. I have seen very many upgrade. I know of a 65+ to 68 upgrade on a Morgan Dollar."
What you point out is true; however, I don't question the entire grading process. Eye appeal is the most important characteristic of a coin. It has been this way for a very long time. Toning has gone in and out of fashion twice since I became aware of grading. At present, it is extremely desirable in certain colors and patterns. IMHO, I believe the TPGS have been bumping these coins to higher grades to reflect their desirability and VALUE.
I'm thinking, there is only one Mona Lisa painting. Now, there is only one 1958 Franklin. I cannot wait to see the price of a Peace dollar as this.
@specialist said:
I totally agree with CNN. This is a completely ORIGINALLY envelope toned coin. Why must people talk about things they do not know? I saw the coin in person.
Oh yeah, I know a little bit about toning. And so does PCGS and JA!! And maybe CNN ( )
I know too much
Glatt Kosher
Not out of the Billy Mulligan deal …
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@insider2 You said that toning has been in and out of fashion twice. When were these times? By the way, I'm not being a smart arse or disagreeing; I am simply curious when toning was out of fashion.
First you'll need to understand that much depends on what you know, and what you collect. For example, Some long time collectors probably have always loved toned coins and appreciated them. At the same time others were dipping anything with color. I personally was required to dip hundreds of rainbow coins in the 1990's so they looked bright on TV!
The first major change was in the 1960's. Everyone wanted Brilliant Uncirculated. Unfortunately, I cannot be 100% sure of the next time that "White" came back. I'm going to guess either in the early 1980's or more likely in the mid-1990's when PCI added the "white" designation to the label for untoned Morgan's.
I'll bet a long-time coin dealer can be more specific.
In the early 2000s, laura commented to me many times that PCGS rewarded white coins. She’s also repeatedly commented that Morgan collectors prefer white coins
Insider2, I seem to recall Wayne Miller stating that in the mid-1960s he had to dip an enormous number of Morgan dollars white so that they could be sold to collectors and that the better date coins needed dipping more than common coins as the market dictated that these be more white. As for my own experience, I recall that toning started to gain quite a bit of steam in my niche and neck of the woods in the late 1990s (1997 or 1998 at the latest) and exploded by 1999.
Then I may be correct about the second change. Perhaps white was more popular than toned in the early 90's. IMO, more folks prefer untoned than toned. The number is probably reversed for super color as they must be rarer when they are determined to be NT.
There is a huge difference between a sparkling white dipped coin and a wildly colors picasso like coin. I know the collector who bought the famed 80S MS68+ for a record price did it for the artisitc looks of the colors.
Now anything in between white and wild is frowned upon for big numbers
@AuroraBorealis said:
...it looks to me like it is either album or mint set toned that has matured to the optimal result... ... AB
I think that most knowledgeable collectors and dealers, with an aggregate thousands and thousands of years experience would say that there is almost zero chance this coin is of mint set origin.
@georgiacop50 I didnt say anything about anyones experience... Strictly my opinion and what I have seen... I do own a few toned 58-D Frankies and back in the day the 58-Ps were in a different card they came in the same package... But the cards were made the same with a cardboard cut out holder for the different size coins covered by a paper flap that was glued to the cardboard... Those were the mint set holders back in 1958 and btw was the last year that the mint sets came that way... These following 1958-D Frankies are ones that I currently own and granted they are all 58-Ds which is way easier to find nicely toned Frankies then the 58-Ps they have very similar characteristics as the 58-P... Obviously the 58-P in the Legend Sale is absolutely amazing with more glowing color and smoothness in that color then any of mine, but it still has very similar characteristics such as the color, the progression of color and the elevation chromatics as well the similar difference between the obverse and reverse toning... The point is The Very First Coin, the MS67 I purchased from a dealer/collector and friend that has handled hundreds of Mint Set toned Frankies in 40 something years and this one he pulled directly from the mint set and sent it in raw to PCGS just recently I might add... First try and came back MS67! The others I had been told in the past that they all have typical mint set toning so that is what I base my limited Franky experience on... But look at them closely and you judge...
@tradedollarnut said:
The grade has very little to do with the value of this coin...so I can’t get on board with the unfair claim
I disagree. Others have already stated the prices asked/offered were MUCH less when it was lower graded.
It is now at the top AND has eye appeal. Both add to the value.
The eye appeal hasn't changed as the price has skyrocketed...only the grade.
@tradedollarnut said:
The grade has very little to do with the value of this coin...so I can’t get on board with the unfair claim
I disagree. Others have already stated the prices asked/offered were MUCH less when it was lower graded.
It is now at the top AND has eye appeal. Both add to the value.
The eye appeal hasn't changed as the price has skyrocketed...only the grade.
@specialist said:
"the artisitc looks of the colors"
Interesting word choice.
I've seen the term "Art Toning" start to appear more lately.
Not specially for this coin since I've typically this as shorthand for Artificial Toning but you wonder if people will just start to associate it with Art or Artistic.
This terminology is kind of interesting as toned coins start becoming treated like art from a pricing perspective.
PCGS price guide in 67+FBL is "only" $13,000.. still an awful lot of premium for the colors..
In 66+FBL it's $400. That's an awful lot of premium for one point
Comments
I just spilled my coffee. I need to take a look at my Gem Franklins put away decades ago.
100% Positive BST transactions
Nobody wakes up and says “I’m going to pay up to 10x the price guide value for this coin - what grade is it”?
They say “wow - I’m buying those colors no matter what” and do a Statue of Liberty act.
Been there, done that
Great informed take!
This has been a fun thread to read and consider.
I really like this post.
" Interestingly enough this was a pop 1 for a long time and was the ONLY non pop top in the #1 LR registry set. High Desert owns it (the pop 1, not the LR set). Recently a few other pop 1's appeared that LR doesn't have (like the 63-d I posted about). I wonder if LR was one of the bidders. It sure might make all his other low pops at least seem more valuable."
I don't know this for certain, but I think it very very likely that LR was either the winner or the underbidder on this coin.
OMG, people are now sending me pics of what they think are equally toned coin. One collector came close, but no where near equal.
Compared to all others (and excluding pride of ownership) you are NOT going to see another toner like this. Its like the 80S M68+ Northern Lights that sold for a record price. Sure tons come close, but NONE are equal. That doe not make them worth 95% of what a coin just sold for
I can understand if the grade had something to do with the price. It certainly would for me. It's not about any grade, but the top pop. Color commands a premium but color+top pop is a powerful combination.
ronyahski I agree with most in this thread as it concerns the toning. I've seen many toners. This coin follows proper toning progression and elevation chromatics. There are plenty of Morgans out there that look similar to this that would be called NT in a heartbeat without batting of an eyelash. The fact this is on a 1958 Philadelphia Mint Franklin Half Dollar is amazing. 1958-D come with toning like this every once in a while. Very, very rarely do 1958 Philadelphias come toned like this.
As to the price, it's a very lofty grade and very beautifully toned coin, rare for the date as already pointed out. With a PCGS price guide value of $13,000 currently, taking CAC into account, Secure into account, toning into account, I would honestly expect a coin like this to bring about 40k give or take 10k depending on who saw it. 3x guide. 2x guide if it were a D-mint because of rarity of color differential. The fact that this coin went for the price of my house is very, very hard to believe. AllCoinsRule brings up a point I had not thought about. Is this a record price not only for a Franklin as the Legend email said, but for a 1934-present coin?
And I've seen many toners. I've seen them sell at auction. I understand the mentality of the premiums they bring, but disagree with tradedollarnut people simply buy the color. Why not then look for a 65 or 66 with similar color and pay $5k? Oh, wait, that's because almost all of them have been upgraded due to gradeflation. Indeed, this coin used to be a 66 and a 66+ before it "became" a 67+. And who knows how many tries were in between those successful upgrades?
I have seen so many monster toners magically upgrade these past 10 years, it seriously makes me question the entire accuracy/consistency of the grading process. You can argue with that until you're blue in the face with me. However, we have all seen photographic evidence of very many upgrades on this board of 1 or 2 points. The proof is right there. I can understand a few examples upgrading from time to time. I have seen very many upgrade. I know of a 65+ to 68 upgrade on a Morgan Dollar.
Whether that's unfair to the person who owned it as a 66 or 66+, that's just the way coin grading goes. That's our hobby. That's life. We can make an existential argument life itself is not fair. That would be venturing OT. Insider2 and MrEureka, I agree with both of you here.
I think cnncoins has the best overall take here. It is good there is enthusiasm for truly rare coins. It is exciting and good overall for the hobby to see money like this still exists in the hobby.
That's my entire take here. Wish I would have arrived earlier for this topic.
Wow! Some of the most controversial threads on here have been on toned Frankies... To start off I would love to own the 58P beast and congrats to the new owner and the consignor! Some of the best toned coins on the planet have been showing up in the Legend Auctions and no surprise that their cutting edge marketing has been bringing the big toned players... This whole thing seems like Deja Vu to me where two Frankies that I purchased from a Teletrade Auction a few years back brought much attention... For those that are interested here is the link... And no they are not going anywhere as I love them! https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/817680/remember-these-two-frankies-thank-you-pcgs/p1 Unlike this 58P without me ever seeing it in hand, it looks to me like it is either album or mint set toned that has matured to the optimal result... Mine are obviously end of roll toned in comparison... What ever caused this toning and the proper progression of colors, and here is the key, the right colors! It`s obvious it was in the perfect conditions, undisturbed for many years... AB
Wow, just wow - I just keep thinking of the 1913 Liberty Nickel selling for $100,000 in the 1970s and now a 1958 Franklin goes for $130,000! I can see it now - the NEW Hawaii Five-O, "$130,000 Frankie"
Seems like we are in a period where there are a number of very wealthy collectors competing with each other for the top 0.1% of coins. I think this just reflects that there are more extremely wealthy people than there have ever been before.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
@machoponcho said: "I have seen so many monster toners magically upgrade these past 10 years, it seriously makes me question the entire accuracy/consistency of the grading process. You can argue with that until you're blue in the face with me. However, we have all seen photographic evidence of very many upgrades on this board of 1 or 2 points. The proof is right there. I can understand a few examples upgrading from time to time. I have seen very many upgrade. I know of a 65+ to 68 upgrade on a Morgan Dollar."
What you point out is true; however, I don't question the entire grading process. Eye appeal is the most important characteristic of a coin. It has been this way for a very long time. Toning has gone in and out of fashion twice since I became aware of grading. At present, it is extremely desirable in certain colors and patterns. IMHO, I believe the TPGS have been bumping these coins to higher grades to reflect their desirability and VALUE.
I'm thinking, there is only one Mona Lisa painting. Now, there is only one 1958 Franklin. I cannot wait to see the price of a Peace dollar as this.
I know too much
Glatt Kosher
Not out of the Billy Mulligan deal …
@insider2 You said that toning has been in and out of fashion twice. When were these times? By the way, I'm not being a smart arse or disagreeing; I am simply curious when toning was out of fashion.
Thanks in advance!
First you'll need to understand that much depends on what you know, and what you collect. For example, Some long time collectors probably have always loved toned coins and appreciated them. At the same time others were dipping anything with color. I personally was required to dip hundreds of rainbow coins in the 1990's so they looked bright on TV!
The first major change was in the 1960's. Everyone wanted Brilliant Uncirculated. Unfortunately, I cannot be 100% sure of the next time that "White" came back. I'm going to guess either in the early 1980's or more likely in the mid-1990's when PCI added the "white" designation to the label for untoned Morgan's.
I'll bet a long-time coin dealer can be more specific.
In the early 2000s, laura commented to me many times that PCGS rewarded white coins. She’s also repeatedly commented that Morgan collectors prefer white coins
Insider2, I seem to recall Wayne Miller stating that in the mid-1960s he had to dip an enormous number of Morgan dollars white so that they could be sold to collectors and that the better date coins needed dipping more than common coins as the market dictated that these be more white. As for my own experience, I recall that toning started to gain quite a bit of steam in my niche and neck of the woods in the late 1990s (1997 or 1998 at the latest) and exploded by 1999.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Then I may be correct about the second change. Perhaps white was more popular than toned in the early 90's. IMO, more folks prefer untoned than toned. The number is probably reversed for super color as they must be rarer when they are determined to be NT.
There is a huge difference between a sparkling white dipped coin and a wildly colors picasso like coin. I know the collector who bought the famed 80S MS68+ for a record price did it for the artisitc looks of the colors.
Now anything in between white and wild is frowned upon for big numbers
Too bad that the Norweb 1893-S dollar had its toning taken off.
Interesting word choice.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The Norweb 93-S had a light almost white layer of tone...no color to speak of. But you are correct it is "too bad" it was removed.
Beautiful coin but holy smokes. Something seems a little too insane about some of the prices being realized for toners lately.
Check out a similar coin in the CRO archives:
http://www.coinraritiesonline.com/index.php?page=archive&task=det_item&item_id=96419
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Thanks to all for comments re the waxing/waning popularity of white coins.
I think that most knowledgeable collectors and dealers, with an aggregate thousands and thousands of years experience would say that there is almost zero chance this coin is of mint set origin.
@georgiacop50 I didn
t say anything about anyones experience... Strictly my opinion and what I have seen... I do own a few toned 58-D Frankies and back in the day the 58-Ps were in a different card they came in the same package... But the cards were made the same with a cardboard cut out holder for the different size coins covered by a paper flap that was glued to the cardboard... Those were the mint set holders back in 1958 and btw was the last year that the mint sets came that way... These following 1958-D Frankies are ones that I currently own and granted they are all 58-Ds which is way easier to find nicely toned Frankies then the 58-Ps they have very similar characteristics as the 58-P... Obviously the 58-P in the Legend Sale is absolutely amazing with more glowing color and smoothness in that color then any of mine, but it still has very similar characteristics such as the color, the progression of color and the elevation chromatics as well the similar difference between the obverse and reverse toning... The point is The Very First Coin, the MS67 I purchased from a dealer/collector and friend that has handled hundreds of Mint Set toned Frankies in 40 something years and this one he pulled directly from the mint set and sent it in raw to PCGS just recently I might add... First try and came back MS67! The others I had been told in the past that they all have typical mint set toning so that is what I base my limited Franky experience on... But look at them closely and you judge...PCGS MS67
PCGS MS66+FBL
PCGS MS66FBL
PCGS MS66+FBL
I disagree. Others have already stated the prices asked/offered were MUCH less when it was lower graded.
It is now at the top AND has eye appeal. Both add to the value.
The eye appeal hasn't changed as the price has skyrocketed...only the grade.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Am I misreading this? Are you suggesting the toned coin market is in trouble?
Wild means monster toned. Weakly toned coins aren't bringing strong money.
How many under bidders were there above $ 50,000 ?
And the venue
I suspect that if the coin had been sold through a venue other than Legend the sale price would have been less than $110,000.00, perhaps much less.
I've seen the term "Art Toning" start to appear more lately.
Not specially for this coin since I've typically this as shorthand for Artificial Toning but you wonder if people will just start to associate it with Art or Artistic.
This terminology is kind of interesting as toned coins start becoming treated like art from a pricing perspective.
Thread resurrection alert!
How the mighty have fallen. $129,000 to $40,000
https://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/89896798/50c-1958-pcgs-ms67--fbl-cac?q=Cac&cpage=3
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Ouch
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Double ouch.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Poor(er) Linda (name added to insert)
A fool and his money separated. Hopefully the previous owner enjoyed owning it a lot, they lost about $3,000/month while owning it!
Per Legend Description:
"We expect the bidding will again be as intense as the colors that adorn the surfaces of this AMAZING coin! Good luck!"
....And it got a total of 1 bid
Going by sentiments on this forum and in the numismatic press, 99%+ do not, especially for a coin like this one.
40K seems like a more realistic value for this coin. 129K was just outrageous! That has got to hurt.
I see many coins with gorgeous toning in the Linda Gail series that are a better value around 15-25K
The posted price doesn’t include the BP, so the coin actually sold for $47,000. Of course, that doesn’t change the narrative.
I love the smell of schadenfreude in the morning..................
“1000% PERFECT surfaces adorn both sides. Use a neutron microscope and you will find NO flaws of any size, any where.”
This description just boggles belief.....except for the many obvious hits already pointed out.....
Wowsa.
PCGS price guide in 67+FBL is "only" $13,000.. still an awful lot of premium for the colors..
In 66+FBL it's $400. That's an awful lot of premium for one point
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Oh
My
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