@ricko said:
I enjoy watching the flipping fever on some of these new issue coins.... The gold Kennedy was a classic...nothing has equaled that one....Cheers, RickO
Here's some photos from Rosemont. I remember something about actors being hired to buy them.
Better sell now because that premium will go away in 6 months. Those buying in over 2k will be very sad when their resale option has fallen in half of what they paid. jmo
The entire "palladium coin" nonsense is a blatant support of taxpayer money for one, single business in Montana. It is an order for purchasing metal that has almost no commercial market from a sole source. The fool Congressman who sponsored this legislation, and possibly received generous contributions from the sole benefactor, merely shafted the rest of us to support a failing mine -- not much capitalism there.....
@Namvet69 said:
IMHO if you can afford to buy it you should be able to hold on to it, kinda like leaving your wager on the table when they slide you the dice. Peace Roy
Seems to me 15,000 is a huge quantity, given that they are all identically perfect and essentially none will be lost. The mintage should have been restricted to 10 or 20 pieces - maybe even less, then the mint could auction them off for $1M+ each and have much less work to do. Unless the employees just needed something to do.
@RogerB said:
The entire "palladium coin" nonsense is a blatant support of taxpayer money for one, single business in Montana. It is an order for purchasing metal that has almost no commercial market from a sole source. The fool Congressman who sponsored this legislation, and possibly received generous contributions from the sole benefactor, merely shafted the rest of us to support a failing mine -- not much capitalism there.....
I disagree. The Stillwater platinum and palladium mine in Montana, is now owned by a South African company Sibanye-Stillwater. The Stillwater which is winding down, is next to the new Blitz mine which is under development at a cost of $250 million in capital spending and creates hundreds of US jobs. It will produce between 270,000oz and 330,000oz of platinum and palladium annually.
First production is expected in early 2018 with steady state production scheduled for 2021. Development of the core infrastructure is expected to be completed in early 2019.
It is not a failing mine, it is expanding and keeping skilled miners employed and creating new construction jobs. It is a critical strategic source of these metals for the US as otherwise they would have to be sourced from Russia and China, not exactly our best trading partners.
Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the future will need these metals, and they will be better for the environment than lithium electric vehicles, and they have longer range and the only "exhaust" pollutant is water.
The mint had few customers when the crooked Congressman entered his bill. It might be doing better now - but only because of the government money pumped into it - and into the hands of the greedy American investor. It was and remains a crooked deal to produce a worthless collectible from nearly useless metal.
@RogerB said:
The mint had few customers when the crooked Congressman entered his bill. It might be doing better now - but only because of the government money pumped into it - and into the hands of the greedy American investor. It was and remains a crooked deal to produce a worthless collectible from nearly useless metal.
Roger,
Wow, It is obvious that you don't like the coin and bill.
The Mint buys and sells 15,000 ounces these coins in 2017, and another 15,000 this year. That is only 5% of the Montana production, not exactly a game changer for them, and who cares, as they can sell all the palladium that they can produce on the World market.
The Mine pays millions in taxes to the U.S. via their company profits and all of their the worker's Federal Income Tax. The US Gov't receives millions of $ because of the Mine. They do not give any money to it.
At 15,000 ounces a year at say $1,300 an ounce selling price that is $19,500,000 revenue a year for the Mint. Of course they have to buy the palladium at say $1,000 an ounce or around $15,000,000 so the net impact is not much after dies, selling costs, labor. I believe the Bill was passed in 2015. The Mint had revenue of $3,693,000,000 in 2015 when you say they had "few customers". These coins are about 1/2 of 1% of their revenue, and are basically meaningless in the big picture of their revenue or cost.
It seems you have made up your mind and you sure have a right to have your opinion, but I want to make sure the facts are clear to others, who may still be objective.
Edited to add, Yes the Congressman probably got some more votes ,which is one of the things they care about.
It's obvious I don't like corruption. The bullion token is very attractive, but should have been made honestly in silver or some other coinage metal. The US Mint was forced to spend a lot of extra time and money to meet the demand of one corrupt Congressman who wanted to benefit one and only one mining business in the entire country. How about a similar bill for miners of domestic dysprosium or the ever-popular coinage metal lutetium?
Corruption, favoritism , nepotism are all destructive to free society and proper use of public resources. Sadly, these seem to be accepted traits of so many elected officials from the very top down.
@RogerB said:
It's obvious I don't like corruption. The bullion token is very attractive, but should have been made honestly in silver or some other coinage metal. The US Mint was forced to spend a lot of extra time and money to meet the demand of one corrupt Congressman who wanted to benefit one and only one mining business in the entire country. How about a similar bill for miners of domestic dysprosium or the ever-popular coinage metal lutetium?
Corruption, favoritism , nepotism are all destructive to free society and proper use of public resources. Sadly, these seem to be accepted traits of so many elected officials from the very top down.
I don't like corruption or maybe in this case, self promotion, and it is true Congressmen and women almost all try to introduce bills that benefit their constituents, as that gets them votes. That is why there is "pork" in big spending bills.
However, the Stillwater mine has produced palladium since 1986. This bill did not change their mine plans at all. For full disclosure, I worked in the past with some of the mining managers there.
The only one that actually benefitted from this Bill was the Congressman, (or maybe the refinery in the US that makes the planchets), so I actually agree with you that this bill was a waste of time for the Mint to force them to add another metal to the mix.
In 1995, a different Congressman from MA, did the same thing in the Bill forcing the Mint to add platinum coins into the fray. Note the US platinum production in 1995 was only 1,590 ounces...LOL So that Bill did the same thing, give the Congressman something to do to brag about It may have benefited South Africa slightly, as the coins were a "new" market for sales.
As far as the other two metals, lutetium turns to white powder if it gets wet, and burns at 300 degrees. Dysprosium creates hydrogen gas when wet, which can explode if a spark is around.
The US Dept. of Energy says it is the single most critical element for emerging clean energy technologies and it is already in very short world supply vs demand and 99% of the world's supply is only mined in China. The US does need to start mining rare earth metals again or China will have total control of many strategic metals we need for the future.
But I appreciate that you mentioned them, as it gave me something new to learn about.
PS. I like the palladium and platinum coins in spite of it all.
@RogerB said:
It's obvious I don't like corruption. The bullion token is very attractive, but should have been made honestly in silver or some other coinage metal. The US Mint was forced to spend a lot of extra time and money to meet the demand of one corrupt Congressman who wanted to benefit one and only one mining business in the entire country.
I believe it took a majority of congress to pass the particular legislation. The one who introduced the legislation was doing his job - bringing business and jobs to the people he represents. You would be lucky to have a representative in your state that does his job. Note that the palladium eagle is an addition to the 1986 American Eagle series that was co-sponsored by a congressman (Ron Paul) who believed all Americans should have the right and opportunity to buy quality precious metals.
Like Morgan dollars? Guess why there are so many of them.
While I'm not going for these overpriced proofs, I look forward to stacking the bulk bullion versions.
@thebigeng said:
I wonder if many years from now when these coins are separated from there us mint packaging and not graded if people will think they are silver??
Depends maybe on the coins toning if they can't read, but the coins are struck in the reverse
1Oz. Pd .9995 fine
@RogerB said:
15,000 examples of a useless metal, all in perfect condition. How does this differ from 15,000 beanie babies made of scrap cloth, all in perfect condition?
Such a great waste of resources that might otherwise be put into really nice, interesting US coins and medals, all accompanies by centuries of history.
When has this medal been used in a coin before? Never or almost never from what I can see. After looking up the consumer and industrial uses for this rare medal, it’s a shame that some of it has been wasted on this gimmick coin.
I believe this metal is used by several foreign nations for basically collector coins. The US is VERY LATE to the table!
I was correct but I could only think of Russia and Australia because we've certified them.
From Wikipedia:
Sierra Leone issued the first palladium coins in 1966.[citation needed] Tonga commenced issuing palladium coins a year later, in 1967, and those issues included the Tonga Palladium Hau. Since then a number of countries have issued palladium coins, including Canada, the Soviet Union, France, Palau, Portugal, Russia, China, Australia and Slovakia. Most of these have been special commemorative coins.
I don't understand some of the posts about the uses of palladium - as a catalyst platinum will do just as well, and IMO this should keep downward pressure on palladium prices. Previously (at least 10 years ago), palladium was known to be a scarcer element than platinum but the supplies were so low that there was not enough critical mass to then create a demand.
I bought a 1987 Bermuda $25 one ounce palladium for $118 during this time....
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Platinum was used in gas car converters until the price rose to $+/- $1,500 an ounce from 2010-2014. It was driving up car prices and people were even stealing catalytic converters to sell it to scrap/recyclers. They redid things to use palladium in car converters because palladium prices were $600-700 during that time. Either metal works with some tweaks.
Then guess what?
Palladium prices shot up to $900-$1,000, in 2018, and platinum dropped to $800 or so in 2018. Price and demand are linked. Palladium is mostly used for gas engine converters now and platinum for diesel. China has huge new car and SUV demand and Europe is moving away from diesel, so Palladium demand is high. About 1/3 an ounce of Palladium is required for larger gas vehicles and there is a shortfall.
But the real story going forward is Russia, currently they are selling stockpiles of Palladium to meet demand and soon there will not be much left in stockpile. The price is high because speculators in the futures market are anticipating this.
Platinum comes mostly from South Africa and they have major cost and currency problems, so platinum would also be unable to keep up with demand if switches. China has a new policy for reducing emissions as the air is terrible there from exhaust, and they are going to buy as much Pt and Pd as they can from Russia and South Africa.
I am buying more Platinum currently as I believe it will go up from here , but both still are in short supply.
Don't think that electric cars will make prices drop any time soon as they will be a small percentage of world vehicles for many years. Also the major technology going forward is hydrogen fuel cells, not just lithium batteries for electric motor vehicles of the future. And, you guessed it, they need to use either Pt or Pd as well. Russia is the big winner and they will be able to control prices and sell to their favorite partners (China).
Geopolitics matter. Mining matters. The US needs to mine more rare-earth metals or we will lose our strategic and technical advantage in the future, as Russia and China just will not sell us the rare metals we need.
All this "discussion" about this Proof Palladium Coin reminds me of the Silver Buffalo back in 2001. I also was in on the Anti Bandwagon at first but then on launch Day I loaded up because in the end I figured why not? Classic Design..... got to be an OK Coin.
As it turned out , the reissue of the Classic Buffalo did OK. I even flipped a bunch on Ebay for a nice return. I didn't flip ALL of them , thankfully. The ones I still have will stay with me forever. They are some of my favorite "moderns" obtained directly fron the US Mint.
This APdE will be joining my Silver Buffaloes on Tuesday, hopefully.
This one has potential to remain at the 1600+ raw. But we are in for 2800-3200 for certified 70’s.
There are several BIG dealers buying these up on EBay now for the 1950-2000 level.
Palladium is such a useful metal, we as a society decide to mine it, make it into little discs, encase the discs in plastic, and store them in affluent people's lock boxes. It's a very efficient use of resources.
@Baley said:
Palladium is such a useful metal, we as a society decide to mine it, make it into little discs, encase the discs in plastic, and store them in affluent people's lock boxes. It's a very efficient use of resources.
@Baley said:
Palladium is such a useful metal, we as a society decide to mine it, make it into little discs, encase the discs in plastic, and store them in affluent people's lock boxes. It's a very efficient use of resources.
so is a savings account.
But but.... we here in the west are conditioned from birth to consume.... to buy.... to put wealth into the accounts of Billionaires. They are given their reason for living - accumulating $Billions...... and we are fulfilling our reasons for living........ basically spend, spend, spend.
Ya I about flipped when I put in $20k in a savings at BofA and asked the wife what did we get on are 1st quarter she said .13 cents that day I went and pulled that out and they ask why.... I can buy new coin from my bank and make 2x my money I sold a new box of 2018-D cents to a dealer for $50.00 made more on the $25.00 box in one day then the $20K for 3 months now that's crazy.
Comments
Here's some photos from Rosemont. I remember something about actors being hired to buy them.
Better sell now because that premium will go away in 6 months. Those buying in over 2k will be very sad when their resale option has fallen in half of what they paid. jmo
The entire "palladium coin" nonsense is a blatant support of taxpayer money for one, single business in Montana. It is an order for purchasing metal that has almost no commercial market from a sole source. The fool Congressman who sponsored this legislation, and possibly received generous contributions from the sole benefactor, merely shafted the rest of us to support a failing mine -- not much capitalism there.....
The only flipping I do is on the beach
It will be interesting to see how the metal "Palladium" looks with proof surfaces, I am thinking I will pleasantly be surprised.
Seems to me 15,000 is a huge quantity, given that they are all identically perfect and essentially none will be lost. The mintage should have been restricted to 10 or 20 pieces - maybe even less, then the mint could auction them off for $1M+ each and have much less work to do. Unless the employees just needed something to do.
I disagree. The Stillwater platinum and palladium mine in Montana, is now owned by a South African company Sibanye-Stillwater. The Stillwater which is winding down, is next to the new Blitz mine which is under development at a cost of $250 million in capital spending and creates hundreds of US jobs. It will produce between 270,000oz and 330,000oz of platinum and palladium annually.
First production is expected in early 2018 with steady state production scheduled for 2021. Development of the core infrastructure is expected to be completed in early 2019.
It is not a failing mine, it is expanding and keeping skilled miners employed and creating new construction jobs. It is a critical strategic source of these metals for the US as otherwise they would have to be sourced from Russia and China, not exactly our best trading partners.
Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the future will need these metals, and they will be better for the environment than lithium electric vehicles, and they have longer range and the only "exhaust" pollutant is water.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
The mint had few customers when the crooked Congressman entered his bill. It might be doing better now - but only because of the government money pumped into it - and into the hands of the greedy American investor. It was and remains a crooked deal to produce a worthless collectible from nearly useless metal.
Roger,
Wow, It is obvious that you don't like the coin and bill.
The Mint buys and sells 15,000 ounces these coins in 2017, and another 15,000 this year. That is only 5% of the Montana production, not exactly a game changer for them, and who cares, as they can sell all the palladium that they can produce on the World market.
The Mine pays millions in taxes to the U.S. via their company profits and all of their the worker's Federal Income Tax. The US Gov't receives millions of $ because of the Mine. They do not give any money to it.
At 15,000 ounces a year at say $1,300 an ounce selling price that is $19,500,000 revenue a year for the Mint. Of course they have to buy the palladium at say $1,000 an ounce or around $15,000,000 so the net impact is not much after dies, selling costs, labor. I believe the Bill was passed in 2015. The Mint had revenue of $3,693,000,000 in 2015 when you say they had "few customers". These coins are about 1/2 of 1% of their revenue, and are basically meaningless in the big picture of their revenue or cost.
It seems you have made up your mind and you sure have a right to have your opinion, but I want to make sure the facts are clear to others, who may still be objective.
Edited to add, Yes the Congressman probably got some more votes ,which is one of the things they care about.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I even missed the announcement(s) the Mint was making them, but if I'd not, that would be my position
I think rhodium poker chips are a better buy.
It's obvious I don't like corruption. The bullion token is very attractive, but should have been made honestly in silver or some other coinage metal. The US Mint was forced to spend a lot of extra time and money to meet the demand of one corrupt Congressman who wanted to benefit one and only one mining business in the entire country. How about a similar bill for miners of domestic dysprosium or the ever-popular coinage metal lutetium?
Corruption, favoritism , nepotism are all destructive to free society and proper use of public resources. Sadly, these seem to be accepted traits of so many elected officials from the very top down.
I don't like corruption or maybe in this case, self promotion, and it is true Congressmen and women almost all try to introduce bills that benefit their constituents, as that gets them votes. That is why there is "pork" in big spending bills.
However, the Stillwater mine has produced palladium since 1986. This bill did not change their mine plans at all. For full disclosure, I worked in the past with some of the mining managers there.
The only one that actually benefitted from this Bill was the Congressman, (or maybe the refinery in the US that makes the planchets), so I actually agree with you that this bill was a waste of time for the Mint to force them to add another metal to the mix.
In 1995, a different Congressman from MA, did the same thing in the Bill forcing the Mint to add platinum coins into the fray. Note the US platinum production in 1995 was only 1,590 ounces...LOL So that Bill did the same thing, give the Congressman something to do to brag about It may have benefited South Africa slightly, as the coins were a "new" market for sales.
As far as the other two metals, lutetium turns to white powder if it gets wet, and burns at 300 degrees. Dysprosium creates hydrogen gas when wet, which can explode if a spark is around.
The US Dept. of Energy says it is the single most critical element for emerging clean energy technologies and it is already in very short world supply vs demand and 99% of the world's supply is only mined in China. The US does need to start mining rare earth metals again or China will have total control of many strategic metals we need for the future.
But I appreciate that you mentioned them, as it gave me something new to learn about.
PS. I like the palladium and platinum coins in spite of it all.
Cheers
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I believe it took a majority of congress to pass the particular legislation. The one who introduced the legislation was doing his job - bringing business and jobs to the people he represents. You would be lucky to have a representative in your state that does his job. Note that the palladium eagle is an addition to the 1986 American Eagle series that was co-sponsored by a congressman (Ron Paul) who believed all Americans should have the right and opportunity to buy quality precious metals.
Like Morgan dollars? Guess why there are so many of them.
While I'm not going for these overpriced proofs, I look forward to stacking the bulk bullion versions.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
I wonder if many years from now when these coins are separated from there us mint packaging and not graded if people will think they are silver??
Depends maybe on the coins toning if they can't read, but the coins are struck in the reverse
1Oz. Pd .9995 fine
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I believe this metal is used by several foreign nations for basically collector coins. The US is VERY LATE to the table!
I was correct but I could only think of Russia and Australia because we've certified them.
From Wikipedia:
Sierra Leone issued the first palladium coins in 1966.[citation needed] Tonga commenced issuing palladium coins a year later, in 1967, and those issues included the Tonga Palladium Hau. Since then a number of countries have issued palladium coins, including Canada, the Soviet Union, France, Palau, Portugal, Russia, China, Australia and Slovakia. Most of these have been special commemorative coins.
not a coin technically, but I picked up a few about 10 years ago
Part of why I say the US Mint doing palladium didn't impact the Montana mine, as they were already selling these
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I don't understand some of the posts about the uses of palladium - as a catalyst platinum will do just as well, and IMO this should keep downward pressure on palladium prices. Previously (at least 10 years ago), palladium was known to be a scarcer element than platinum but the supplies were so low that there was not enough critical mass to then create a demand.
I bought a 1987 Bermuda $25 one ounce palladium for $118 during this time....
Well, just Love coins, period.
7Jaguars,
Platinum was used in gas car converters until the price rose to $+/- $1,500 an ounce from 2010-2014. It was driving up car prices and people were even stealing catalytic converters to sell it to scrap/recyclers. They redid things to use palladium in car converters because palladium prices were $600-700 during that time. Either metal works with some tweaks.
Then guess what?
Palladium prices shot up to $900-$1,000, in 2018, and platinum dropped to $800 or so in 2018. Price and demand are linked. Palladium is mostly used for gas engine converters now and platinum for diesel. China has huge new car and SUV demand and Europe is moving away from diesel, so Palladium demand is high. About 1/3 an ounce of Palladium is required for larger gas vehicles and there is a shortfall.
But the real story going forward is Russia, currently they are selling stockpiles of Palladium to meet demand and soon there will not be much left in stockpile. The price is high because speculators in the futures market are anticipating this.
Platinum comes mostly from South Africa and they have major cost and currency problems, so platinum would also be unable to keep up with demand if switches. China has a new policy for reducing emissions as the air is terrible there from exhaust, and they are going to buy as much Pt and Pd as they can from Russia and South Africa.
I am buying more Platinum currently as I believe it will go up from here , but both still are in short supply.
Don't think that electric cars will make prices drop any time soon as they will be a small percentage of world vehicles for many years. Also the major technology going forward is hydrogen fuel cells, not just lithium batteries for electric motor vehicles of the future. And, you guessed it, they need to use either Pt or Pd as well. Russia is the big winner and they will be able to control prices and sell to their favorite partners (China).
Geopolitics matter. Mining matters. The US needs to mine more rare-earth metals or we will lose our strategic and technical advantage in the future, as Russia and China just will not sell us the rare metals we need.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I appreciate the civil and mostly fact-based quality of this discussion.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Amazing how much one can learn here.
Thanks guys!!!
Sure wish I had sold my excess plats a few years ago.
Who mentioned staying power ? This has about as much staying power as a 100 year old man on Viagra. ( my thoughts)
All this "discussion" about this Proof Palladium Coin reminds me of the Silver Buffalo back in 2001. I also was in on the Anti Bandwagon at first but then on launch Day I loaded up because in the end I figured why not? Classic Design..... got to be an OK Coin.
As it turned out , the reissue of the Classic Buffalo did OK. I even flipped a bunch on Ebay for a nice return. I didn't flip ALL of them , thankfully. The ones I still have will stay with me forever. They are some of my favorite "moderns" obtained directly fron the US Mint.
This APdE will be joining my Silver Buffaloes on Tuesday, hopefully.
Make sure it's just enough as NOT to kill you
When I first read the title, I thought this was about crying for joy
This one has potential to remain at the 1600+ raw. But we are in for 2800-3200 for certified 70’s.
There are several BIG dealers buying these up on EBay now for the 1950-2000 level.
Palladium is such a useful metal, we as a society decide to mine it, make it into little discs, encase the discs in plastic, and store them in affluent people's lock boxes. It's a very efficient use of resources.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
so is a savings account.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
Not at 3c interest per month!!!
But but.... we here in the west are conditioned from birth to consume.... to buy.... to put wealth into the accounts of Billionaires. They are given their reason for living - accumulating $Billions...... and we are fulfilling our reasons for living........ basically spend, spend, spend.
Ya I about flipped when I put in $20k in a savings at BofA and asked the wife what did we get on are 1st quarter she said .13 cents that day I went and pulled that out and they ask why.... I can buy new coin from my bank and make 2x my money I sold a new box of 2018-D cents to a dealer for $50.00 made more on the $25.00 box in one day then the $20K for 3 months now that's crazy.
Hoard the keys.
whoo ....the 2017 came out at abut $990... I guess some naysayers said it would come back close to spot
Money market funds paying 2.1% right now... $20k will get you about $35 a month right now.