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Has the Bad Culture been repaired?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

I was just reading old Hot Topics articles and thought the "Bad Culture" article from 2 years ago was interesting.

The jist of the article seems to be that the blame for gradeflation isn't on the TPGs, but collectors that wish to have their sets regraded when completed and ready to sell.

What is the situation now? Do collectors still want regrades or to sell with existing grades?

https://www.legendnumismatics.com/hot-topics/a-bad-culture/

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Comments

  • RegulatedRegulated Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As long as humans are involved in anything, there'll be problems.


    What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Regardless of “ what collectors want,” TPGs have a professional responsibility to maintain grading standards. That might old and quaint, but it’s fundamental to ethical and professional behavior.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Follow the money.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMHO, all of us are involved in the slide of grading standards. For example, the way I grade a 1916-D dime has definitely changed over the past forty years! It is something I've noticed as I check the images in our guidebooks.
    AG-3 coins I never would have considered close to G-4 back then are being graded that way.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Regardless of “ what collectors want,” TPGs have a professional responsibility to maintain grading standards. That might old and quaint, but it’s fundamental to ethical and professional behavior.

    YES!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    IMHO, all of us are involved in the slide of grading standards. For example, the way I grade a 1916-D dime has definitely changed over the past forty years! It is something I've noticed as I check the images in our guidebooks.
    AG-3 coins I never would have considered close to G-4 back then are being graded that way.

    I fought it for years, but am now no longer involved in grading anything other than my front lawn.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    IMHO, all of us are involved in the slide of grading standards. For example, the way I grade a 1916-D dime has definitely changed over the past forty years! It is something I've noticed as I check the images in our guidebooks.
    AG-3 coins I never would have considered close to G-4 back then are being graded that way.

    NO! Not NOT ALL OF US!!!

    It's the people who are doing the grading for the third party grading services. Let's get that straight. As I dealer- consumer, serving my clients, I had to work within the system to get the coins my customers wanted, but I did not support the watered down standards. And yes, that applies most definitely to the 1916-D Mercury Dime. What had been a VG became a VF.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018 9:45AM

    @BillJones said: "NO! Not NOT ALL OF US!!!

    UNLESS you personally have stopped buying coins that are in slabs, you are also guilty and I'm not going to take the time to explain the economic consequences of that behavior to you.

    PS When it comes time to sell your collection, you better not try for upgrades or you will be a "pants-on-fire" hypocrite! :p

  • ColonialcoinColonialcoin Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    @Insider2 said:
    IMHO, all of us are involved in the slide of grading standards. For example, the way I grade a 1916-D dime has definitely changed over the past forty years! It is something I've noticed as I check the images in our guidebooks.
    AG-3 coins I never would have considered close to G-4 back then are being graded that way.

    NO! Not NOT ALL OF US!!!

    It's the people who are doing the grading for the third party grading services. Let's get that straight. As I dealer- consumer, serving my clients, I had to work within the system to get the coins my customers wanted, but I did not support the watered down standards. And yes, that applies most definitely to the 1916-D Mercury Dime. What had been a VG became a VF.

    I recently saw a Barber Quarter graded Fine in a top tier slab. It was a nice looking, well struck coin but it was completely missing 2 1/2 letters of Liberty. Sorry, but I would never ever buy that coin as a fine and if I could not in clear conscience sell that as a Fine, either raw or in a slab. I would buy it as a nice VG and sell it as a nice VG. End of story.

    I get it if a certain coin is normally found with soft areas(the 1805 1/2 dime comes to mind), but a barber quarter nowhere near having a full liberty? Seriously???

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @BillJones said: "NO! Not **NOT ALL OF

    @Insider2 said:
    @BillJones said: "NO! Not NOT ALL OF US!!!

    UNLESS you personally have stopped buying coins that are in slabs, you are also guilty and I'm not going to take the time to explain the economic consequences of that behavior to you.

    PS When it comes time to sell your collection, you better not try for upgrades or you will be a "pants-on-fire" hypocrite! :p

    So I should gotten out of the hobby years ago according to you. Your point is absurd, and your insulting tone is totally unfair.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do you support what by your own words (often posted) the TPGS are doing/have done to the grading standards by purchasing TPGS slabs?

    If the answer is YES... then as I wrote, we are ALL guilty either indirectly or in my case directly!

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,137 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps Bill is buying the coin and not just the holder. ;)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 10,002 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have always thought their could have been a better grading system than the grader's eyesight. Not saying that I know what that is, just that something that would better the agreement between buyers and sellers and both between grading companies. Maybe accountable pmmarks on MS coins 3 for this grade, 5 for that grade and so forth, then strike clarity and rim conditions. If taking all of the key components of a coin and make each accountable for percentage of visibility. I think we should also go back to ANACS's grading of both sides of the coin and give split grades. These are just my opinions open to discussion and at the least perhaps eventually coming up with a system that NEARLY everyone could agree to, maybe. Until that day comes these other problems will constantly come and go.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • ColonialcoinColonialcoin Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭

    Bottom line is that you have to buy what you feel is an accurately graded, properly priced and is an eye appealing coin. I may not like a certain color or way that a coin has toned. Someone else may. That’s fine. Someone recently posted a raw 1885 toned dollar that I thought was awesome. I have seen higher graded toned coins that are hideous.

    I have seen other TPC’s grade coins that are poorly graded. They then bring X at auction. A couple other poorly graded coins add fuel to the fire. Then that is listed as the “value” of this certain colonial. Go to the Newman and Partrick sales, it happened a lot, especially on the coins that sold for under $10K. One has to be so on top of this grading/pricing thing so they don’t get hurt in the pocketbook.

    Thank goodness that coins aren’t graded VG 11, VF 38, XF 42, or whatever. It’s hard enough playing the 66, 66+ game.

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