@Dpeck100 said:
...it was driven by the fact that I remember in the early 2000's BGS came along and was out selling PSA and so I thought I was betting on the right horse. It turned out that I wasn't and PSA had taken a significant lead and the same cards were no longer selling for more in a BGS slab. When I decided to get serious about collecting graded cards in 2010 I did a lot of research and it was driven by data from EBAY and auction houses and I decided it was a no brainer to go with PSA.
This is what I am looking for...comparing the TPGs pre-registry.
The registry is certainly a driver of their business and to their credit they clearly saw this as an opportunity to promote set collecting and this only increases the number of submissions that come their way. All one must do is look at the most expensive cards in the hobby and the vast majority reside in PSA holders.
Interesting, I wonder how many of the most expensive cards are in registry. Although outliers, this definitely challenges my opinion that registry > benchmark.
...that type of money tied up in pieces of cardboard encased in a plastic holder...
I think you asked a question hoping for a certain answer by your qualifying statements , several board members gave you their answers/opinions, and those opinions did not match your desired outcome. You are simply trying to get people to agree with you on your opinion which all can vary and can be subjective. The opinion is fine since it is subjective, but the price difference is real and objective and hard to dispute.
I am not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. @perkdog commented that PSA was the benchmark of the industry, secondarily he said the registry participants also prefer PSA and he asked anyone who disagrees to explain. I responded and stated my opinion that the registry is more important than PSA being considered the “benchmark” (what has made them the standard?), I didn’t disagree about the company’s status. (Semantics? probably) @Dpeck100 response was focused on the premium PSA realizes. Again, I was not arguing PSA commands a premium, I replied with the same opinion that the premium is primarily due to the registry.
The “evidence” you ask for is simple - PSA cards command a higher price, so collectors and investors have spoken with their wallets. For most collectors it is about trusting their slabs to be secure, and they also bring more $$ in sales by a large margin. Those are the main reasons they dominate when it comes to selling prices for their cards.
Isn't this circular logic, PSA commands a higher price, because people pay a higher price?
My other point was I am unaware of “evidence” that PSA provides a superior service (grading), then their legitimate competitors. I never fully understood paying more for a label than the product I am purchasing. What @brad31 said makes the most sense to me “Given a choice between PSA and SGC I buy the nicer card every time.”
I’m obviously not an active member, but I appreciate the discussion.
Good thoughts and discussion. On the topic of circular logic I can see where you could think that, and my opinion comes from buying and selling with sellers and collectors of medium to high end baseball cards - All graded. If you look at their inventories they are about 98% PSA, and most don’t have a registry. It simply comes down to PSA cards sell more, PSA cards seem to be graded more accurately, and for high end and high dollar cards(let’s say $10k and higher) hardly any of them trust an SGC holder. I personally like the old SGC holders and they present the cards very well, but there is a lot of sentiment out there that a high end card in an SGC holder is there for a reason.
I sent an order to SGC on Tuesday and got an email on Friday saying they had received the order and it was being processed. Is this the norm for them?? After dealing with PSA I was both shocked and surprised.
@ElvisP said:
I sent an order to SGC on Tuesday and got an email on Friday saying they had received the order and it was being processed. Is this the norm for them?? After dealing with PSA I was both shocked and surprised.
It probably is the norm considering they are not even close to being as busy as PSA.
@ElvisP said:
I sent an order to SGC on Tuesday and got an email on Friday saying they had received the order and it was being processed. Is this the norm for them?? After dealing with PSA I was both shocked and surprised.
It probably is the norm considering they are not even close to being as busy as PSA.
Not sure what it is like allover the country but here in Orlando you can pull right up to the Burger King drive through and get served immediately. Across the street is Chick Fila and the line wraps around the building at the same time. Both are in the fast food business with wildly different wait times.
@ElvisP said:
I sent an order to SGC on Tuesday and got an email on Friday saying they had received the order and it was being processed. Is this the norm for them?? After dealing with PSA I was both shocked and surprised.
It probably is the norm considering they are not even close to being as busy as PSA.
Not sure what it is like allover the country but here in Orlando you can pull right up to the Burger King drive through and get served immediately. Across the street is Chick Fila and the line wraps around the building at the same time. Both are in the fast food business with wildly different wait times.
I see where you are going with this, but not sure if each is accurately reflected. When the drive thru is backed up at Chick Fil A they swing into action.
@ElvisP said:
I sent an order to SGC on Tuesday and got an email on Friday saying they had received the order and it was being processed. Is this the norm for them?? After dealing with PSA I was both shocked and surprised.
It probably is the norm considering they are not even close to being as busy as PSA.
Not sure what it is like allover the country but here in Orlando you can pull right up to the Burger King drive through and get served immediately. Across the street is Chick Fila and the line wraps around the building at the same time. Both are in the fast food business with wildly different wait times.
I don’t eat fast food but I’m venturing a guess that maybe Chick Fila is that much better than Burger King.
@drc said:
A common sense question that could be posed is, if a card in the same condition sells for more because it's in a PSA holder rather than in SGC, why would you buy the card in a PSA holder?
Depending on the card, so save fees on crossover? Or to know the grade will hold up...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@drc said:
To anyone outside the hobby, paying substantially more for the same card in the same grade would seem to be a most head-scratching buying and investing philosophy.
I think there's far greater consistency among the top coin graders than the top card graders. I've had 3 grade drops on the card side crossing over. Much more difficult to go the other way. There's a reason for the price discrepancy or the market would have corrected already.
Overall I would say PSA grades tougher than SGC or Beckett. I have cards from all 3 companies and do purchase cards based on appearance. PSA Cards definitely command a higher price and are my overall preference.
@drc said:
To anyone outside the hobby, paying substantially more for the same card in the same grade would seem to be a most head-scratching buying and investing philosophy.
In buying for your personal collection, I might agree, but for an investment (looking at cards from 1950's through 1980 or so) buying PSA would be a wise decision simply because they sell for more.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@KendallCat said:
I have bought very few SGC cards and the one I did was a 15 Cobb that was an SGC 50 which equals a PSA 4 and it crossed over exactly to a PSA 4.
I haven't done it, but am considering sending in my 1962 (surprise 1962) Killebrew to SGC. PSA has graded it a 7 twice, I can't believe its not 8.5 minimum.
It sits here in it's 7 holder. I just don't know what to do with it.
A 7 it is...
Surface keeps it from a higher grade imo.
I see several print dots and thats just my looking at your posted picture.
@KendallCat said:
I have bought very few SGC cards and the one I did was a 15 Cobb that was an SGC 50 which equals a PSA 4 and it crossed over exactly to a PSA 4.
Looks WAY better in the SGC slab by far imo.
I agree and stated as such in an earlier post. Funny thing was when I crossed it at the Natty two years ago as soon as I did I had some very nice offers from major AH’s and online sellers. While hard to turn down this would be a hard card to replace in the same kind of shape and condition.
I haven't done it, but am considering sending in my 1962 (surprise 1962) Killebrew to SGC. PSA has graded it a 7 twice, I can't believe its not 8.5 minimum.
It sits here in it's 7 holder. I just don't know what to do with it.
A 7 it is...
Surface keeps it from a higher grade imo.
I see several print dots and thats just my looking at your posted picture.
Nice card either way:)
Cracked it out the first time it came back and surface is fine. The print dots are there, but I have seen many cards with worse that grade a 9.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@drc said:
To anyone outside the hobby, paying substantially more for the same card in the same grade would seem to be a most head-scratching buying and investing philosophy.
I think there's far greater consistency among the top coin graders than the top card graders. I've had 3 grade drops on the card side crossing over. Much more difficult to go the other way. There's a reason for the price discrepancy or the market would have corrected already.
@drc said:
To anyone outside the hobby, paying substantially more for the same card in the same grade would seem to be a most head-scratching buying and investing philosophy.
In buying for your personal collection, I might agree, but for an investment (looking at cards from 1950's through 1980 or so) buying PSA would be a wise decision simply because they sell for more.
That makes no sense investment-wise. For longterm investing, buying the same card at the lower price is the obvious best choice.
Perception is reality. The perception is that it isn't the same card and therefore the prices aren't the same.
@drc said:
For longterm investing, what I said is 100% correct. People sometimes forget that investing is half based on what you paid for the card. You should be longterm investing in the card not the label, and 'undervalued' is exactly what intelligent investors invest in.
The whole “card not the label” idea is oversimplified. The label affects the perception of the card. The whole purpose of TPG companies is that most buyers do not have the expertise to thoroughly assess the card. Therefore, the label is one part of the assessment of the card.
@drc said:
To anyone outside the hobby, paying substantially more for the same card in the same grade would seem to be a most head-scratching buying and investing philosophy.
In buying for your personal collection, I might agree, but for an investment (looking at cards from 1950's through 1980 or so) buying PSA would be a wise decision simply because they sell for more.
That makes no sense investment-wise. For longterm investing, buying the same card at the lower price is the obvious best choice.
PSA graded cards are more often "undergraded" and SGC has the reputation not only of "overgrading" but grading cards that PSA rejects. A lot of collectors stay away from SGC because of this.
As an investment, you want an item that more people are going to feel secure about. Now if you are talking about gambling on a cards potential, you can get a better return IF the SGC card is properly graded and crosses over to PSA at the same grade.
I am only referring to cards I collect 1950's through 1970's. I think SGC has a better reputation with older cards.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
DRC it is not that simple. You can have all of the confidence in the world in a cards condition but if your goal is to get it in a PSA holder it is only their opinion that matters.
No one is disputing there are collectors with great eyes and are extremely well trained in what to look for but when the market has such a spread between third party graders it puts a lot of emphasis in trying to cross cards over and in the end its PSA's call not the submitter.
I sent in a re-holder to SGC for the 5 day turnaround which I paid $50 that included return postage. They received it on 9/21 and I received it back on 9/29. That is what I call customer service. They also refunded me $30.
@drc said:
To anyone outside the hobby, paying substantially more for the same card in the same grade would seem to be a most head-scratching buying and investing philosophy.
In buying for your personal collection, I might agree, but for an investment (looking at cards from 1950's through 1980 or so) buying PSA would be a wise decision simply because they sell for more.
That makes no sense investment-wise. For longterm investing, buying the same card at the lower price is the obvious best choice.
PSA graded cards are more often "undergraded" and SGC has the reputation not only of "overgrading" but grading cards that PSA rejects. A lot of collectors stay away from SGC because of this.
As an investment, you want an item that more people are going to feel secure about. Now if you are talking about gambling on a cards potential, you can get a better return IF the SGC card is properly graded and crosses over to PSA at the same grade.
I am only referring to cards I collect 1950's through 1970's. I think SGC has a better reputation with older cards.
I totally agree with this.
When I buy PSA, I feel very good about it being legit and authentic, whatever the grade is. With SGC I don't feel as confident about that as I used to. It's gotten to the point now that every time I see an SGC card for sale or at an AH, I have to assume the seller of the card attempted to send it to PSA for crossover and it got rejected. Why would anyone selling their cards NOT want them in PSA holders when selling them? So I assume most SGC cards have been sent to PSA before.
And let's face it, SGC desperately needs more of their holders out in the market so they have a definite incentive to grade the cards rather than NOT grade the card because of an issue. Not grading it and deeming it counterfeit or altered would not be good for business. If there's a card that they are on the fence about being authentic or not, what do you think they would do?
The gap between #1 PSA and #2 SGC and everyone else is widening more and more. I am half expecting SGC to throw in the towel soon unless something drastic happens. From an investing perspective, putting your cash in SGC cards is a risky way to go. Beckett will probably always hang around. They have a lot of other products that turn a profit and can probably afford to hang around a distant 2nd or 3rd.
For what it's worth, I don't think this total domination PSA has in the market is especially great for the card market or our hobby. I don't think its healthy in any market or industry to have one company completely own it like PSA does. It would be better for all of us if a company could come along and begin to really challenge them. It's how companies like PSA get better and it gives them more of an incentive to correct things they could do better. They have no fears of losing business or customers right now because most of us really don't have much of a choice. This means they can name their prices, not follow through on commitments to customers, etc. I hope we don't see this and they remain committed to taking care of their customers but, let's face it, we don't have other options and as a result we are kind of at their mercy, That's not exactly comforting.
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
PSA graded cards are more often "undergraded" and SGC has the reputation not only of "overgrading" but grading cards that PSA rejects. A lot of collectors stay away from SGC because of this.
SGC has a reputation of accurately grading cards to their stated standards as does PSA. I have never heard allegations of SGC believing a card meets one of their rejection codes and ignoring the fact to get it into a holder. That would end the small niche they have as a reputable alternative to PSA. I believe both companies have a reputation for grading cards that PSA rejects. How many threads on here say they had one come back ungraded - resubmit and it gets into a holder. SGC has a strong reputation of integrity in the hobby.
All TPG companies do not like to cross. If they cannot take the card out of the holder and look at it - it is difficult to assign a grade. I personally believe they should not even offer crossover service for this reason. This is why many people crack out before sending in. This would probably single handedly kill off SGC if PSA did this. The segment of buyers who hope to cross would be eliminated and very few collectors would be willing to buy SGC.
There is no disputing PSA cards sell for more in the same grade. However I believe that has more to do with the registry than grading accuracy. Because they sell for more people desire to get their cards into a PSA holder. I agree that it is likely that any higher dollar card I am buying today has attempted to cross over and did not. But I also believe if cracked out the card would cross at approximately the same grade. Anecdotes from people on the boards seem to say this is the case. Maybe there is bias in those stories because those who crack and then get a significantly lower grade do not like to share.
What the intangible that PSA has is they have graded so many cards from so many sets from so many years from so many genres that there is something for everyone under one brand.
In my current sub I have my prized card in 1985 the Fleer Pete Rose and I had to give it to my older brother Matt to complete his set and got it back when my parents sold their house and purchased a condo and it will probably grade a PSA 4 and is getting submitted anyway just for the nostalgia.
I have a 1989 Fleer Griffey that was a prized card in sheets that should 10.
A good friend from NY who is big into the WNBA cards has some in the sub that are the first to be graded.
I busted a 1985 Topps WWF rack box and a 1989 Market Scene from New Zealand Series II and I am sending in a good number of cards from both sets and most are not of high value.
This right here is one of the primary reasons that their cards are more heavily collected and hence have higher prices. It has never been hard to figure out.
The registry isn't really all about competition. For many it is just trying to put a set together in graded form and because the population totals are so much higher for PSA graded cards it is easier to try and collect the set and people love uniformity.
The odds of a fresh player coming into this business and competing are very slim and with the current market share stats I am not convinced anyone will even try. PSA has such a dominate position and it just is what it is. They make a nice profit but this isn't an extremely lucrative business so the risk to even try is quite high.
Here I am eight years later posting about the topic and the dominance is just the same and potentially more.
@ElvisP said:
I sent in a re-holder to SGC for the 5 day turnaround which I paid $50 that included return postage. They received it on 9/21 and I received it back on 9/29. That is what I call customer service. They also refunded me $30.
But you have a card in an SGC holder. I’ll go with PSA and wait.
When I first saw the new SGC at the National I did not like it, but it has started to grow on me. Also, I am starting to see a ton of them on eBay and AH’s lately.
The nature of the black borders inherently means this year's cards will be lower grade than its counterpoints. The chipping on the bottom border of the Vance precludes it grading higher than 8. Not all years are equal. Some years will have higher grades than others.
Comments
This is what I am looking for...comparing the TPGs pre-registry.
Interesting, I wonder how many of the most expensive cards are in registry. Although outliers, this definitely challenges my opinion that registry > benchmark.
This is my favorite.
Great post, thanks for the discussion.
Good thoughts and discussion. On the topic of circular logic I can see where you could think that, and my opinion comes from buying and selling with sellers and collectors of medium to high end baseball cards - All graded. If you look at their inventories they are about 98% PSA, and most don’t have a registry. It simply comes down to PSA cards sell more, PSA cards seem to be graded more accurately, and for high end and high dollar cards(let’s say $10k and higher) hardly any of them trust an SGC holder. I personally like the old SGC holders and they present the cards very well, but there is a lot of sentiment out there that a high end card in an SGC holder is there for a reason.
KC
I sent an order to SGC on Tuesday and got an email on Friday saying they had received the order and it was being processed. Is this the norm for them?? After dealing with PSA I was both shocked and surprised.
It probably is the norm considering they are not even close to being as busy as PSA.
Not sure what it is like allover the country but here in Orlando you can pull right up to the Burger King drive through and get served immediately. Across the street is Chick Fila and the line wraps around the building at the same time. Both are in the fast food business with wildly different wait times.
I see where you are going with this, but not sure if each is accurately reflected. When the drive thru is backed up at Chick Fil A they swing into action.
eBay Store
Greg Maddux #1 Master SetGreg Maddux #2 Basic Set
I don’t eat fast food but I’m venturing a guess that maybe Chick Fila is that much better than Burger King.
Just getting a crossover sub together myself with my renewal voucher - a couple over the $500 limit, but what do you think? Thanks.
Bosox1976
Awesome cards!!
Great group of cards. The black holders really make the cards jump out at you.
Surface is fine, certainly not a 7.
Nice cards! How much does SGC charge for a simple reholder?
Depending on the card, so save fees on crossover? Or to know the grade will hold up...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I think there's far greater consistency among the top coin graders than the top card graders. I've had 3 grade drops on the card side crossing over. Much more difficult to go the other way. There's a reason for the price discrepancy or the market would have corrected already.
Overall I would say PSA grades tougher than SGC or Beckett. I have cards from all 3 companies and do purchase cards based on appearance. PSA Cards definitely command a higher price and are my overall preference.
In buying for your personal collection, I might agree, but for an investment (looking at cards from 1950's through 1980 or so) buying PSA would be a wise decision simply because they sell for more.
Looks WAY better in the SGC slab by far imo.
Retired Disabled Vet (Army). Corps of Engineers.
A 7 it is...
Surface keeps it from a higher grade imo.
I see several print dots and thats just my looking at your posted picture.
Nice card either way:)
Retired Disabled Vet (Army). Corps of Engineers.
I agree and stated as such in an earlier post. Funny thing was when I crossed it at the Natty two years ago as soon as I did I had some very nice offers from major AH’s and online sellers. While hard to turn down this would be a hard card to replace in the same kind of shape and condition.
KC
Cracked it out the first time it came back and surface is fine. The print dots are there, but I have seen many cards with worse that grade a 9.
Perception is reality. The perception is that it isn't the same card and therefore the prices aren't the same.
The whole “card not the label” idea is oversimplified. The label affects the perception of the card. The whole purpose of TPG companies is that most buyers do not have the expertise to thoroughly assess the card. Therefore, the label is one part of the assessment of the card.
PSA graded cards are more often "undergraded" and SGC has the reputation not only of "overgrading" but grading cards that PSA rejects. A lot of collectors stay away from SGC because of this.
As an investment, you want an item that more people are going to feel secure about. Now if you are talking about gambling on a cards potential, you can get a better return IF the SGC card is properly graded and crosses over to PSA at the same grade.
I am only referring to cards I collect 1950's through 1970's. I think SGC has a better reputation with older cards.
DRC it is not that simple. You can have all of the confidence in the world in a cards condition but if your goal is to get it in a PSA holder it is only their opinion that matters.
No one is disputing there are collectors with great eyes and are extremely well trained in what to look for but when the market has such a spread between third party graders it puts a lot of emphasis in trying to cross cards over and in the end its PSA's call not the submitter.
The label matters and it is what it is.
I sent in a re-holder to SGC for the 5 day turnaround which I paid $50 that included return postage. They received it on 9/21 and I received it back on 9/29. That is what I call customer service. They also refunded me $30.
I totally agree with this.
When I buy PSA, I feel very good about it being legit and authentic, whatever the grade is. With SGC I don't feel as confident about that as I used to. It's gotten to the point now that every time I see an SGC card for sale or at an AH, I have to assume the seller of the card attempted to send it to PSA for crossover and it got rejected. Why would anyone selling their cards NOT want them in PSA holders when selling them? So I assume most SGC cards have been sent to PSA before.
And let's face it, SGC desperately needs more of their holders out in the market so they have a definite incentive to grade the cards rather than NOT grade the card because of an issue. Not grading it and deeming it counterfeit or altered would not be good for business. If there's a card that they are on the fence about being authentic or not, what do you think they would do?
The gap between #1 PSA and #2 SGC and everyone else is widening more and more. I am half expecting SGC to throw in the towel soon unless something drastic happens. From an investing perspective, putting your cash in SGC cards is a risky way to go. Beckett will probably always hang around. They have a lot of other products that turn a profit and can probably afford to hang around a distant 2nd or 3rd.
For what it's worth, I don't think this total domination PSA has in the market is especially great for the card market or our hobby. I don't think its healthy in any market or industry to have one company completely own it like PSA does. It would be better for all of us if a company could come along and begin to really challenge them. It's how companies like PSA get better and it gives them more of an incentive to correct things they could do better. They have no fears of losing business or customers right now because most of us really don't have much of a choice. This means they can name their prices, not follow through on commitments to customers, etc. I hope we don't see this and they remain committed to taking care of their customers but, let's face it, we don't have other options and as a result we are kind of at their mercy, That's not exactly comforting.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
SGC has a reputation of accurately grading cards to their stated standards as does PSA. I have never heard allegations of SGC believing a card meets one of their rejection codes and ignoring the fact to get it into a holder. That would end the small niche they have as a reputable alternative to PSA. I believe both companies have a reputation for grading cards that PSA rejects. How many threads on here say they had one come back ungraded - resubmit and it gets into a holder. SGC has a strong reputation of integrity in the hobby.
All TPG companies do not like to cross. If they cannot take the card out of the holder and look at it - it is difficult to assign a grade. I personally believe they should not even offer crossover service for this reason. This is why many people crack out before sending in. This would probably single handedly kill off SGC if PSA did this. The segment of buyers who hope to cross would be eliminated and very few collectors would be willing to buy SGC.
There is no disputing PSA cards sell for more in the same grade. However I believe that has more to do with the registry than grading accuracy. Because they sell for more people desire to get their cards into a PSA holder. I agree that it is likely that any higher dollar card I am buying today has attempted to cross over and did not. But I also believe if cracked out the card would cross at approximately the same grade. Anecdotes from people on the boards seem to say this is the case. Maybe there is bias in those stories because those who crack and then get a significantly lower grade do not like to share.
What the intangible that PSA has is they have graded so many cards from so many sets from so many years from so many genres that there is something for everyone under one brand.
In my current sub I have my prized card in 1985 the Fleer Pete Rose and I had to give it to my older brother Matt to complete his set and got it back when my parents sold their house and purchased a condo and it will probably grade a PSA 4 and is getting submitted anyway just for the nostalgia.
I have a 1989 Fleer Griffey that was a prized card in sheets that should 10.
A good friend from NY who is big into the WNBA cards has some in the sub that are the first to be graded.
I busted a 1985 Topps WWF rack box and a 1989 Market Scene from New Zealand Series II and I am sending in a good number of cards from both sets and most are not of high value.
This right here is one of the primary reasons that their cards are more heavily collected and hence have higher prices. It has never been hard to figure out.
The registry isn't really all about competition. For many it is just trying to put a set together in graded form and because the population totals are so much higher for PSA graded cards it is easier to try and collect the set and people love uniformity.
The odds of a fresh player coming into this business and competing are very slim and with the current market share stats I am not convinced anyone will even try. PSA has such a dominate position and it just is what it is. They make a nice profit but this isn't an extremely lucrative business so the risk to even try is quite high.
Here I am eight years later posting about the topic and the dominance is just the same and potentially more.
Why would any of us switch?
But you have a card in an SGC holder. I’ll go with PSA and wait.
I have no problems with neither.In my experience they just about even out in grading.
When I first saw the new SGC at the National I did not like it, but it has started to grow on me. Also, I am starting to see a ton of them on eBay and AH’s lately.
KC
The nature of the black borders inherently means this year's cards will be lower grade than its counterpoints. The chipping on the bottom border of the Vance precludes it grading higher than 8. Not all years are equal. Some years will have higher grades than others.