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SGC vs. PSA
ElvisP
Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭
I've submitted a few breakout SGC's 7's or better to PSA over the last year or so. There has been a high rate of evidence of trimming, close to 50%. I have since started submitting them as crossover and have had a better success rate but still get the min. grade on some. I never have a min. grade higher than the SGC grade. Have you had similar results?
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I've only tried one crossover and it got hit with a EOT. I recently purchased a Box bottom card in a SGC 96 holder. Once in hand it measures about 1/32 shy on length. Doubt PSA would give it anything but an A which is a shame but the way it works.
Kevin
Kevin
I buy PSA for my registry sets and really like SGC 88's to crack out for my raw sets as they are typically cheaper than PSA and close to the price of raw from a dealer like Greg Morris.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
I have bought very few SGC cards and the one I did was a 15 Cobb that was an SGC 50 which equals a PSA 4 and it crossed over exactly to a PSA 4.
Did you specify a minimum grade on the Cobb??
My crossover sub last month:
SGC 96 = PSA 8.5
SGC 96 = PSA 9
SGC 96 = PSA 9
SGC 98 = PSA 9
BGS 9.5 = PSA 9
These results are pretty par for the course for me. I've never had any issues and everything has crossed either straight over or just under.
Wrestling - Danielson - Storm - Tajiri
I believe I did in the 3.5/4 range. Prefer it in a PSA holder, but like the look of the card in the black background personally. Goal is find a Shoeless CJ to go with it that has similar eye appeal, and if not sell it down the road if I can’t match the pair. Need both or none
KC
Just for experiment, I once cracked out a PSA 9 1960 topps baseball. Sent it to GAI and got a EOT. Its a crapshoot.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I trust SGC and PSA equally. Several years ago I bought more SGC because similar cards (50’s and 60’s HOF) seemed to sell for less. Now I buy more PSA just because supply is so much larger. I will also buy old label BVG back when they were stricter and had the sub grades when I see them. I do not sell cards or participate in the registry so have never tried to cross anything as I would rather spend those dollars on new cards. In all cases I try to buy cards I think are strong for the grade (or if not priced accordingly).
I honestly can’t understand why anyone would submit to anyone but PSA to begin with unless there might be an issue with the card.
perkdog, Please explain. Thanks!
Because PSA is the benchmark in the graded card industry and will always command higher prices realized. Also it appeals to registry participants
whoever disagrees please explain yourself
THEORETICALLY, if PSA is simply too tough on certain issues and crushes your card by 1.5 to 2 grades, SGC might be a better option.
I won’t argue that, however at the end of the day I feel that if given a choice between PSA or SGC in the SAME grade, PSA wins every time.
Absolutely!
I haven't done it, but am considering sending in my 1962 (surprise 1962) Killebrew to SGC. PSA has graded it a 7 twice, I can't believe its not 8.5 minimum.
It sits here in it's 7 holder. I just don't know what to do with it.
Given a choice between PSA and SGC I buy the nicer card every time.
And if the time comes to sell your cards PSA will get more money returned than SGC
Of my last 25 EBay purchases 8 were SGC. These are the ones recent enough to grab photos. I do not have a scanner so these are the ones I can still get screen caps of.
a
Hopefully it will be my heirs that sell. I get my enjoyment out of looking at mine. It is a hobby for me not a business.
Here is my favorite SGC from the last year. Honestly the photo does not quite do it justice.
Outstanding cards!
Btw as far as looks go, you can’t beat a Vintage card in an SGC holder. The Black background looks awesome
Thanks perkdog. And I do agree with you if I were submitting to sell I would choose PSA as there are registry buyers who will not look at SGC and others who like one consistent holder. If you are a collector who does not work on registry sets there are nice cards that are SGC and they usually sell for a bit less than PSA.
This is on eBay now and without seeing the reverse, looks like a "9".
Erik
SGC is just as good as PSA... except when it comes to selling. I’ve found them at times to be even more harsh on grades for mid grade vintage cards.
That is a sweet Carew rookie!
KC
Banzai- It must be the surface on the Killebrew card, looks like some problems there.
This
Definitely some extra printing hiccups on the front. SGC I have found is more lenient with centering--not sure about PD or surface wear/scuffs
That.
Arthur
Couple of minor "fisheyes" no surface problems, checked that out the first time it was graded. Card appears a little "washed out" but if you are familiar with this particular card they all seem this way.
Either way the card is nearly worthless in a PSA 7, but certainly could have more value if SGC graded it an 8 or 8.5, that was my point.
Have also seen quite a few '71's very harshly graded by PSA. Certain years may get you a better ROI if the difference is a grade or more higher with SGC. OF COURSE you first have to give PSA a try!
I only disagree with the primacy of your comments, PSA being the benchmark over the registry.
Who grades the cards at these companies? Is there a grading certification or licensure? Is there a business incentive to have poor, inconsistent grading?
Years ago I wanted to do a controlled research study on the three major grading companies. The idea was to select a handful of cards and submit, crack out and resubmit to the companies a few times and see what the consistency of results looked like. I didn't have the money to do it.
My point, PSA started and has the industry standard registry system and that I believe is the primary factor in sellers premium. If there was an independent industry registry allowed for different grading companies to be included I could envision the PSA premium decreasing significantly.
Unfortunately with the human element being involved there will always be inconsistencies.
PSA doesn't ever claim they are the best. They focus on brand. People are dreaming if they think there is an environment where SGC is going to sell for an equivalent value across the board. Sure there are some beautiful cards residing in their holders but from a company standpoint it isn't even close. Some have speculated SGC was going to throw in the towel while PSA is grading more cards ever in the companies history.
The dealer who has been doing everything in his power to try and land the first 1982 Wrestling All Stars #2 Hulk Hogan in a PSA 10 has had four of his PSA 9's reviewed so many times with no luck and finally decided to crack one out and send one to SGC. The PSA 9 became the first SGC Gem. When he unloaded one of those PSA 9's it went for just under 3k and the SGC Gem just over 3k through PWCC at the same time in the last year. This is miles apart and it happens routinely across the card collecting community. The PSA 10 would sell for probably 8 times as much.
Cards look nice in SGC slabs but outside of some pre war collectors and a few that are disgruntled with PSA you don't here I want SGC first and those are just the facts.
I agree that PSA is currently extremely harsh on issues with colored borders. That includes 1962, 1963, 1971 and 1975. I believe it comes from an extreme interpretation of what constitutes minor corner wear with these issues. I sent in almost $1000 in sub fees worth of 1971's that appeared to have never been handled. I was expecting 8s on all of them and more than 60% came back 7s.
If a card like the one below is an 8, it's hard to imagine what's required for a 9.
Strangely they are not nearly as strict on 1955 Bowman which has the same color border issues.
Here is the lower left corner of the Vance. I acknowledge that a trace of white is visible, but it's not what I'd call wear, it's just a result of the cutting process. At least that's my take.
Same thing just happened to me....found a sweet hoard of 71's....sent in over 100 of them, and got 4 8s...the rest 7s and 6s. Frustrating.
Maybe they're looking for a card without poor registration and all the white print defects in the blue areas to the right of his arms.
PSA, and its not even a contest.
Talking about PSA, why is Beckett still a grading company, and whats up with Jordan Fleer RC's in gem from BGS selling for $8000, while PSA gem sells for 20K?
COLLECTING: 2020 Topps 206 ⚾️
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PSA started grading in 1991, SGC in 1998, from my understanding SCD was decent for awhile and BGS is in there somewhere. PSA started the registry in 2001. I would like to see prices realized (PSA premium) for identical cards pre-2001.
My interpretation of this post is if I was collecting x, I would be paying a significant premium for a piece of paper with a logo on it, not necessarily the item that piece of paper is grading. Why do people pay premium prices, what is the incentive? In this case, to me it's simply the registry.
Thought experiment, if "the registry" was an independent third party, would PSA still demand the same premium? Is there evidence PSA grading (employees & process) is more valid and reliable than other major legitimate card grading companies?
I think you asked a question hoping for a certain answer by your qualifying statements , several board members gave you their answers/opinions, and those opinions did not match your desired outcome. You are simply trying to get people to agree with you on your opinion which all can vary and can be subjective. The opinion is fine since it is subjective, but the price difference is real and objective and hard to dispute.
If SGC and BGS cards for the same grade/quality/eye appeal sold for more people would have them grade their cards and sell them since they would make more money. For example If I had a 1960 Mantle in a PSA 8 grade and by switching it to SGC for the same grade it would sell for more money I would switch it no problem; however, that is not the case for the same grades and prices when comparing PSA to the other TPG companies. I have never added cards to a registry and don’t intend to do it, and for modern cards like say Aaron Judge and Acuna BGS grades sell for more than PSA examples so I have those cards in BGS slabs.
The “evidence” you ask for is simple - PSA cards command a higher price, so collectors and investors have spoken with their wallets. For most collectors it is about trusting their slabs to be secure, and they also bring more $$ in sales by a large margin. Those are the main reasons they dominate when it comes to selling prices for their cards.
KC
I had purchased few graded cards during the 2005 to 2008 time frame and actually purchased BGS graded cards over PSA. It was just a few popular 80's cards and it was driven by the fact that I remember in the early 2000's BGS came along and was out selling PSA and so I thought I was betting on the right horse. It turned out that I wasn't and PSA had taken a significant lead and the same cards were no longer selling for more in a BGS slab. When I decided to get serious about collecting graded cards in 2010 I did a lot of research and it was driven by data from EBAY and auction houses and I decided it was a no brainer to go with PSA. I had no dealings with them and it didn't matter to me who I chose as it was driven by selling prices across the hobby. There was no such thing as a graded wrestling card market so I used the primary sports and popular non sport sets to make my decision. It was beyond clear that if there was ever going to be any real value my best chance was with PSA. I have never viewed my collection primarily as an investment but it is only rational if you are pumping money into something to want the most bang for your buck. My choice had nothing to do with toughness and only due to market trends. There were higher prices and dramatically more cards graded on EBAY and they had an immensely better online presence that has only improved since that time frame.
The registry is certainly a driver of their business and to their credit they clearly saw this as an opportunity to promote set collecting and this only increases the number of submissions that come their way. During the past eight years it has become abundantly clear that within the space I collect PSA is much tougher and this leads to higher perceived rarity and higher prices. All one must do is look at the most expensive cards in the hobby and the vast majority reside in PSA holders. No one is saying there aren't great cards in the other two companies holders but if you are looking at investing in cards, you have no choice but to consider the landscape and it is beyond clear that the third party grader that is in the dominate position is PSA.
I don't see any environment where this changes. Some point to the notion of a scandal or some crazy conspiracy theory bringing them down and in reality you have a business that is firing on all cylinders. The fact that they are a public company gives you additional comfort as their financials are readily available and the company is extremely fiscally sound. One of my concerns with choosing BGS or SGC was that they are not remotely in the same market position and if for some reason they exit the business you will be left holding a card graded by a defunct company and that reduces its overall marketability. If this were to occur then the same collectors would be turning to PSA and they would be at their mercy on trying to cross over the cards. A very dangerous situation. My collection is nothing compared to some but it is north of six figures and if I plan to have that type of money tied up in pieces of cardboard encased in a plastic holder I am very concerned about whose name is on it. As should anyone who is paying a premium for a card with a known grade. This isn't rocket science.
I have experience with one crossover from an SGC 96 that ended up turning into an experiment for my personal interest on grading consistency at PSA. This was back between 2008 and 2009, so if memory serves half grades hadn't been implemented yet, or at best were just starting out. It is a 1965 Topps card fyi
Sub 1: I tried to do a direct crossover with a minimum grade of PSA 9. Card was kicked back for not meeting minimum grade.
Sub 2: Did another direct crossover with no minimum. Card came back in a PSA 8 holder.
Sub 3: Cracked out of the PSA 8 holder and resubmitted. Came back as EOT.
Sub 4: Resubmitted came back as a PSA 9 finally!
-At this point I had bought a collection that contained a PSA 9 version of the same card so I cracked the 9 and kept resubmitting just to see what would happen.
Subs 5-8: Subs came back 8-8-EOT-9
-Left the card in the 9 holder
In the end it all comes down to the grader, and also I'd speculate that what you're subbing it with matters. I know a couple of times I subbed with modern cards, which of course are going to look a lot sharper than a 60's Topps issue, which could potentially explain the PSA 8 grades. I know the last sub that I got it back into a 9 holder had a lot of cards from 77 and 79 Topps that I had pulled during a BBCE case break we did on the boards years ago.
So if I could give advice it would be to submit cards only with similar cards. Don't mix modern and vintage. I would even go so far as to say don't mix tobacco minis with standard size. Also don't be surprised with getting back one card from your sub that has you scratching your head, like a min size, EOT, or a wicked low grade that doesn't seem to fit the card.
-Adam
Surface and the fish-eye.
I would have to agree with the '71's being harshly graded. I sent in my first batch of 15 cards with pretty bad results. They were pulled from over 1200 '71's that I purchased in several different lots from EBAY over several months. I was hoping for mostly 8's, but being fairly inexperienced with PSA grading at the time my expectations weren't too high.
This was the result.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
I am not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. @perkdog commented that PSA was the benchmark of the industry, secondarily he said the registry participants also prefer PSA and he asked anyone who disagrees to explain. I responded and stated my opinion that the registry is more important than PSA being considered the “benchmark” (what has made them the standard?), I didn’t disagree about the company’s status. (Semantics? probably) @Dpeck100 response was focused on the premium PSA realizes. Again, I was not arguing PSA commands a premium, I replied with the same opinion that the premium is primarily due to the registry.
Isn't this circular logic, PSA commands a higher price, because people pay a higher price?
My other point was I am unaware of “evidence” that PSA provides a superior service (grading), then their legitimate competitors. I never fully understood paying more for a label than the product I am purchasing. What @brad31 said makes the most sense to me “Given a choice between PSA and SGC I buy the nicer card every time.”
I’m obviously not an active member, but I appreciate the discussion.