1917 MPL Lincoln head wheat cent certified by ANACS in 1977

BUFFNIXX

They say a picture is worth a thousand words?
Well here are two pictures for MPL collectors to chew on!!

robec

If Walter Breen says so it must be true.

LJenkins11

That is cool, thank you for the post. Way outside my realm of knowledge/expertise (which is not considerable) are you able to present a zoomed in view of the coin?

Timbuk3

Wow, amazing !!!

EagleEye

I have seen the coin, letter and cert. it is not a proof. It had edges similar to a proof but was slightly bent, likely removed from an encasement. 1917 proof cent does not exist.

cameonut2011

I wouldn't want to touch anything that Walter Breen had personally handled. The pictures are far too small to draw conclusions, but anything that Breen says is questionable unless corroborated by more reliable sources.

thefinn

The letter's real - Breen always used a purple felt-tip pen.

RogerB

This is ancient bologna. The OP brings it up like salmonella sausage every few months in hopes of someone listening to the puke flow.

BUFFNIXX

@RogerB said:
This is ancient bologna. The OP brings it up like salmonella sausage every few months in hopes of someone listening to the puke flow.

Never have brought this one up anytime in the past. First time I saw this was 2 days ago.
Guess RogerB is back!

RogerB

The OP hs mentioned this same nonsense multiple times on multiple forums. One time it's a cent, then a nickel or a SL quarter....but - happily - no silver dollars, yet!

No documents, no contemporary letters or notes, not modern authentication --- nothing but Breen's bologna and salmonella.

BUFFNIXX

@RogerB said:
The OP hs mentioned this same nonsense multiple times on multiple forums. One time it's a cent, then a nickel or a SL quarter....but - happily - no silver dollars, yet!

No documents, no contemporary letters or notes, not modern authentication --- nothing but Breen's bologna and salmonella.
But Roger, it DOES have an ANACS certificate!! You forgot to mention that. Still such a grouchy poster are you you are!

BUFFNIXX

I will end this thread with this. My intention was to smoke out Birdie B and it worked!

CaptHenway

Fascinating.

batumi

I recall reading in an old publication that Joel Rettew purchased an original 1917 proof set in the mid 1970's, and it was broken up. Our hosts have nothing such listed on their site, and I have heard or seen nothing else on this. Urban legend? Any one heard of these, or is it just bar talk?

BUFFNIXX

@batumi said:
I recall reading in an old publication that Joel Rettew purchased an original 1917 proof set in the mid 1970's, and it was broken up. Our hosts have nothing such listed on their site, and I have heard or seen nothing else on this. Urban legend? Any one heard of these, or is it just bar talk?

New England Rare Coin Galleries sold this set, which was composed of a cent, nickel, quarter, and half dollar at their
“Public II” auction around 1976. I believe that David Hall later said that though he originally thought these coins were proofs he later referred to them as “cherry uncs.” whatever that means. But as many people who have seen them said, "they carried their own credentials". To this day there has never been a sniff or hint otherwise of a 1917 proof dime.

The coin shown here is the only one ever credentialed by anacs to my knowledge. They have also certiified one 1917 half dollar as a specimen striking. Certain people might not like this but what I say are facts known by a lot of collectors and numismatists.

keets

while I certainly respect the opinion of RogerB this is another case where it can very difficult if not impossible to prove a negative. while it's highly unlikely that any 1917 Proofs exist it strikes me that invoking the name of Walter Breen always seems to bring out the worst in forum members, especially RogerB. maybe it's a researcher thing.

from a different field of study I am reminded of the coelacanth.

BUFFNIXX

@keets said:
while I certainly respect the opinion of RogerB this is another case where it can very difficult if not impossible to prove a negative. while it's highly unlikely that any 1917 Proofs exist it strikes me that invoking the name of Walter Breen always seems to bring out the worst in forum members, especially RogerB. maybe it's a researcher thing.

from a different field of study I am reminded of the coelacanth.

I try to separate Walter Breen;s personal life from his numismatic works. Lets key on the fact here that ANACS did issue a photo certificate for this coin in 1977. And this was before the advent of slabbing in the late eighties. Nothing brings out the worst in some people like mentioning Walter’s name.

BUFFNIXX

I always liked the anacs certificate and wish this were still an option with ANACS. I also would like to see ANACS bring back the small sized slab as an option. I actually contacted them about this a few years ago but they were not giving any consideration to either of these option. There current slab is a very attrative slab and fits nicely in a display with pcgs and ngc coins.

BUFFNIXX

Here is an interesting 1917 buffalo nickel that I got from “flea bay”
It has a die break near the L in LIBERTY. Walter Breen referred to it as a proof in his 1992 U S Coin Encyclopedia which was released in 1992. For over 25 years I always checked buffs for this die break. I thought if this die was also used to strike business coinage then some of the circa buffs I ran across would have this die break. But I found nothing, not a single coin with this die break until I stumbled across this coin, which by the way has sharp squared edges which are brilliant just like a you would expect on a proof coin.

CaptHenway

This was certified almost a year before I started at ANACS. The Authenticators at the time were John Hunter and Ed Fleischmann. Ed had been my mentor at Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse, and later recommended that I be brought on at ANACS.

I never saw the coin. The transfer certificate was probably issued in 1988, after Breen saw the original certificate with the original owner's name. Perhaps the coin was sold at the 1988 ANA Convention, and the new owner requested the transfer. The ANACS staff in 1988 may not have seen the coin either. It was always possible to send a photo certificate in and request a new one in a new name for a small fee. The style of the certificate is what they were using in the 1980's, but the quality of the photograph looks like they used the old negative from the 1970's.

I have great respect for Hunter, as I did for Fleischmann, but they did make mistakes, as did I when I was there. As has everybody on this forum.

Without having seen the coin, and with the benefit of 40+ years of experience and hindsight, I would be inclined to accept Rick Snow's opinion on this coin over that of Hunter and Fleischmann. Or Breen.

TD

CaptHenway

And for the sake of numismatic researchers, the negative should still be on file in alpha-numeric order in the ANA's basement along with about 15 years worth of negatives. When the ANA sold ANACS the new owners did not want the negatives.

291fifth

I have now read on the internet that the coin in question is a proof and also that it is not a proof. I can't handle this ... everything I read on the internet is supposed to be true ... I'm lost ...................................

RINATIONALS

Hmm didn't I just see a 1917 proof ANACS quarter a while back?

keets

Tom, thanks for your input. I would be most interested to know WHO has actually seen this coin and where it might be?? Rick Snow states that he has seen it so that counts for something, but at least one grader at ANACS(how many would have looked at the coin to issue the opinion on the certificate) and Walter Breen have also seen it. it seems a bit disingenuous for others to state emphatically that it isn't a Proof if they haven't seen it.

messydesk

@CaptHenway said:
And for the sake of numismatic researchers, the negative should still be on file in alpha-numeric order in the ANA's basement along with about 15 years worth of negatives. When the ANA sold ANACS the new owners did not want the negatives.

Interesting! Any clue how many coins this represents? Can the negatives still be correlated with the grading records, or is it just a bunch of pictures of coins now? Would this be worth anything as an online resource like our host's publicly viewable TrueViews? Modern film scanners, even cheaper ones, can produce some pretty decent images from negatives -- better than printed half-tone images or actual size photos on the certificates.

EagleEye

I was shown it at a show about 8 years ago. I confirmed that it was the same coin in the certificate. It also had a slightly smaller diameter than a normal cent. This is due to the post-strike compression of the rim.

messydesk

@BUFFNIXX said:
Here is an interesting 1917 buffalo nickel that I got from “flea bay”
It has a die break near the L in LIBERTY. Walter Breen referred to it as a proof in his 1992 U S Coin Encyclopedia which was released in 1992. For over 25 years I always checked buffs for this die break. I thought if this die was also used to strike business coinage then some of the circa buffs I ran across would have this die break. But I found nothing, not a single coin with this die break until I stumbled across this coin, which by the way has sharp squared edges which are brilliant just like a you would expect on a proof coin....

A radial die break is a death sentence for a die. If this is a business strike with a radial die break on an EDS coin, the reason you hadn't been able to find one could be that very few were made.

cameonut2011

@BUFFNIXX said:

@batumi said:
I recall reading in an old publication that Joel Rettew purchased an original 1917 proof set in the mid 1970's, and it was broken up. Our hosts have nothing such listed on their site, and I have heard or seen nothing else on this. Urban legend? Any one heard of these, or is it just bar talk?

New England Rare Coin Galleries sold this set, which was composed of a cent, nickel, quarter, and half dollar at their
“Public II” auction around 1976. I believe that David Hall later said that though he originally thought these coins were proofs he later referred to them as “cherry uncs.” whatever that means. But as many people who have seen them said, "they carried their own credentials". To this day there has never been a sniff or hint otherwise of a 1917 proof dime.

The coin shown here is the only one ever credentialed by anacs to my knowledge. They have also certiified one 1917 half dollar as a specimen striking. Certain people might not like this but what I say are facts known by a lot of collectors and numismatists.

In fairness to you, it is no wackier than some of PCGS's specimen or branch mint proof designations.

CaptHenway

@EagleEye said:
I was shown it at a show about 8 years ago. I confirmed that it was the same coin in the certificate. It also had a slightly smaller diameter than a normal cent. This is due to the post-strike compression of the rim.

Interesting. Any chance that the coin was rolled between two polished rollers outside the Mint to give it an edge that was both flat and shiny, as the edge should be on a Proof cent?

Note to future historians researching this coin with it in hand...please come back in time and let me know what you find!

Insider2

My turn LOL.

@BUFFNIXX posted: They say a picture is worth a thousand words? Well here are two pictures for MPL collectors to chew on!!

What a wonderful and historical group! One day I hope they end up at the ANA.

@robec said: "If Walter Breen says so it must be true."

I get sick when "Johnny-come-lately" collectors, dealers, and assorted coin "ex-perts" blast Breen. He is of a different time. We stand on his shoulders and those of all researchers who came before us. Most of the knowledge of many famous numismatists has been eclipsed as their work has been expanded and corrected. That is the way of science.

PS I'll remine all of you who were around back then and those who were not that Walter didn't have a moment of peace at a show as a gaggle of professional dealers were surrounding him for his opinion. I was one of them!
@RogerB said: "This is ancient bologna. The OP brings it up like salmonella sausage every few months in hopes of someone listening to the puke flow."

Flag! Almost.

@BUFFNIXX said: "Here is an interesting 1917 buffalo nickel that I got from “flea bay.” It has a die break near the L in LIBERTY. Walter Breen referred to it as a proof in his 1992 U S Coin Encyclopedia which was released in 1992. For over 25 years I always checked buffs for this die break. I thought if this die was also used to strike business coinage then some of the circa buffs I ran across would have this die break. But I found nothing, not a single coin with this die break until I stumbled across this coin, which by the way has sharp squared edges which are brilliant just like a you would expect on a proof coin.

I know of two 1917 Buffalo Nickels from this die. Both gems and certified as Proofs. No business strike or circulated coin ever seen with this die break in 46 years. You lucky dog! I've been looking also.

@CaptHenway said: "This was certified almost a year before I started at ANACS. The Authenticators at the time were John Hunter and Ed Fleischmann. Ed had been my mentor at Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse, and later recommended that I be brought on at ANACS.

I never saw the coin. The transfer certificate was probably issued in 1988, after Breen saw the original certificate with the original owner's name. Perhaps the coin was sold at the 1988 ANA Convention, and the new owner requested the transfer. The ANACS staff in 1988 may not have seen the coin either. It was always possible to send a photo certificate in and request a new one in a new name for a small fee. The style of the certificate is what they were using in the 1980's, but the quality of the photograph looks like they used the old negative from the 1970's.

I have great respect for Hunter, as I did for Fleischmann, but they did make mistakes, as did I when I was there. As has everybody on this forum."

I worked with John. He is not around to reply so SELF EDIT. I'll agree that we all make mistakes about coins and people.

@CaptHenway continues: "Without having seen the coin, and with the benefit of 40+ years of experience and hindsight, I would be inclined to accept Rick Snow's opinion on this coin over that of Hunter and Fleischmann. Or Breen."

Rick has seen the coin so his opinion carries weight.

@CaptHenway said: "And for the sake of numismatic researchers, the negative should still be on file in alpha-numeric order in the ANA's basement along with about 15 years worth of negatives. When the ANA sold ANACS the new owners did not want the negatives."

Just another one of the stupid mistakes made by Amos Press. Those negatives are worth their weight in gold. Unfortunately, the INSAB negatives were lost to numismatics when Hoskins died.

@messydesk said: "A radial die break is a death sentence for a die. If this is a business strike with a radial die break on an EDS coin, the reason you hadn't been able to find one could be that very few were made.

Thanks for making the case for Proof status.

CaptHenway

"SELF EDIT" what?

Insider2

NOYB... He is not around to reply.

CaptHenway

You addressed the comment to me so it is my business.

Insider2

My comment was about John and has nothing to do with you. We may have different opinions about John.

cohodk

@291fifth said:
I have now read on the internet that the coin in question is a proof and also that it is not a proof. I can't handle this ... everything I read on the internet is supposed to be true ... I'm lost ...................................

Dont you know the truth isnt the truth?

BUFFNIXX

@Insider2 said:
My turn LOL.

@BUFFNIXX posted: They say a picture is worth a thousand words? Well here are two pictures for MPL collectors to chew on!!

What a wonderful and historical group! One day I hope they end up at the ANA.

@robec said: "If Walter Breen says so it must be true."

I get sick when "Johnny-come-lately" collectors, dealers, and assorted coin "ex-perts" blast Breen. He is of a different time. We stand on his shoulders and those of all researchers who came before us. Most of the knowledge of many famous numismatists has been eclipsed as their work has been expanded and corrected. That is the way of science.

PS I'll remine all of you who were around back then and those who were not that Walter didn't have a moment of peace at a show as a gaggle of professional dealers were surrounding him for his opinion. I was one of them!
@RogerB said: "This is ancient bologna. The OP brings it up like salmonella sausage every few months in hopes of someone listening to the puke flow."

Flag! Almost.

@BUFFNIXX said: "Here is an interesting 1917 buffalo nickel that I got from “flea bay.” It has a die break near the L in LIBERTY. Walter Breen referred to it as a proof in his 1992 U S Coin Encyclopedia which was released in 1992. For over 25 years I always checked buffs for this die break. I thought if this die was also used to strike business coinage then some of the circa buffs I ran across would have this die break. But I found nothing, not a single coin with this die break until I stumbled across this coin, which by the way has sharp squared edges which are brilliant just like a you would expect on a proof coin.

I know of two 1917 Buffalo Nickels from this die. Both gems and certified as Proofs. No business strike or circulated coin ever seen with this die break in 46 years. You lucky dog! I've been looking also.

@CaptHenway said: "This was certified almost a year before I started at ANACS. The Authenticators at the time were John Hunter and Ed Fleischmann. Ed had been my mentor at Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse, and later recommended that I be brought on at ANACS.

I never saw the coin. The transfer certificate was probably issued in 1988, after Breen saw the original certificate with the original owner's name. Perhaps the coin was sold at the 1988 ANA Convention, and the new owner requested the transfer. The ANACS staff in 1988 may not have seen the coin either. It was always possible to send a photo certificate in and request a new one in a new name for a small fee. The style of the certificate is what they were using in the 1980's, but the quality of the photograph looks like they used the old negative from the 1970's.

I have great respect for Hunter, as I did for Fleischmann, but they did make mistakes, as did I when I was there. As has everybody on this forum."

I worked with John. He is not around to reply so SELF EDIT. I'll agree that we all make mistakes about coins and people.

@CaptHenway continues: "Without having seen the coin, and with the benefit of 40+ years of experience and hindsight, I would be inclined to accept Rick Snow's opinion on this coin over that of Hunter and Fleischmann. Or Breen."

Rick has seen the coin so his opinion carries weight.

@CaptHenway said: "And for the sake of numismatic researchers, the negative should still be on file in alpha-numeric order in the ANA's basement along with about 15 years worth of negatives. When the ANA sold ANACS the new owners did not want the negatives."

Just another one of the stupid mistakes made by Amos Press. Those negatives are worth their weight in gold. Unfortunately, the INSAB negatives were lost to numismatics when Hoskins died.

@messydesk said: "A radial die break is a death sentence for a die. If this is a business strike with a radial die break on an EDS coin, the reason you hadn't been able to find one could be that very few were made.

Thanks for making the case for Proof status.

Here is another picture of my 1917 buffalo nickel

BUFFNIXX

PS I'll remine all of you who were around back then and those who were not that Walter didn't have a moment of peace at a show as a gaggle of professional dealers were surrounding him for his opinion. I was one of them!

I met Walter Breen at the ANA show in Pittsburgh in 1989. What an experience. He was constantly barraged by people wanting to talk to him about this and that. He was dressed like a tie-died hippie!!

robec

@Insider2 said:
My turn LOL.

@robec said: "If Walter Breen says so it must be true."

I get sick when "Johnny-come-lately" collectors, dealers, and assorted coin "ex-perts" blast Breen. He is of a different time. We stand on his shoulders and those of all researchers who came before us. Most of the knowledge of many famous numismatists has been eclipsed as their work has been expanded and corrected. That is the way of science.

Yay, after almost 60 years of collecting I finally made the "Johnny-come-lately" club. I love how you assign labels to those that don't share or agree with your opinion......nice touch.

Insider2

@cohodk said:

@291fifth said:
I have now read on the internet that the coin in question is a proof and also that it is not a proof. I can't handle this ... everything I read on the internet is supposed to be true ... I'm lost ...................................

Dont you know the truth isnt the truth?

I think you posted this to be humorous. Unfortunately it is not to me.

Your post was also stated recently about concerning our legal system.

Example: If one witness says something under oath and another says something different under oath, the prosecutor gets to SELECT which "truth" he likes best to reach the outcome he wants to push. Simple case of the truth is not the truth! It is not so hard to understand? Thanks for bringing it up.

Insider2

@robec said:

@Insider2 said:
My turn LOL.

@robec said: "If Walter Breen says so it must be true."

I get sick when "Johnny-come-lately" collectors, dealers, and assorted coin "ex-perts" blast Breen. He is of a different time. We stand on his shoulders and those of all researchers who came before us. Most of the knowledge of many famous numismatists has been eclipsed as their work has been expanded and corrected. That is the way of science.

Yay, after almost 60 years of collecting I finally made the "Johnny-come-lately" club. I love how you assign labels to those that don't share or agree with your opinion......nice touch.

LOL, we all have labels. Congratulations, you were one of his "peers" - a label. Now, either you were one of the crowd around him or you were not. Guess it depended on how big a dealer/collector YOU were and the quality/price/rarity of the coins YOU dealt in.

He had his detractors back then also. My point is that folks better than I have found errors in his works. I am ashamed to say that while I have just about all of his research publications including the small brown monographs/reprints, as of today, I still have not read the entire Encyclopedia. Therefore, I am not qualified to comment on any errors.

I do know first hand that, back then, many well-known, knowledgeable professionals believed if a pre-1836 coin had a mirror surface it was a proof! Things are different today. What makes me sick is the disrespect the younger numismatists who were still teething when he was active display as they parrot the observation that Breen made lots of misinformed opinions about coins. You don't fall into that category.

PS Within one year as a rookie professional numismatist, one thing I found to be absolutely true is that "time in" (60 years in your case) means absolutely NOTHING when it comes to an opinion about coins!

crazyhounddog

@robec said:

@Insider2 said:
My turn LOL.

@robec said: "If Walter Breen says so it must be true."

I get sick when "Johnny-come-lately" collectors, dealers, and assorted coin "ex-perts" blast Breen. He is of a different time. We stand on his shoulders and those of all researchers who came before us. Most of the knowledge of many famous numismatists has been eclipsed as their work has been expanded and corrected. That is the way of science.

Yay, after almost 60 years of collecting I finally made the "Johnny-come-lately" club. I love how you assign labels to those that don't share or agree with your opinion......nice touch.

Robec is a very well respected member of this forum and knows his way around coins, especially Lincoln cent proof coins.
Robec is my coinbrother from the word go and I do listen up when he talks coins. I love ya, insider, but your a tad rough on my very good friend, Robeck.

BUFFNIXX

Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
The above is posted for “Roger B”. Amy more derogatory personal remarks from him and I will report him for sure.

leothelyon

@keets said:
while I certainly respect the opinion of RogerB this is another case where it can very difficult if not impossible to prove a negative. while it's highly unlikely that any 1917 Proofs exist it strikes me that invoking the name of Walter Breen always seems to bring out the worst in forum members, especially RogerB. maybe it's a researcher thing.

from a different field of study I am reminded of the coelacanth.

He also brought the worst out of his very own daughter;

In 2014, Breen's daughter Moira Greyland revealed that she was one of the people who reported her father for child molestation. Wikipedia

.......there was nothing.......ever......genuine about this failure!

Leo

mannie gray

@BUFFNIXX said:
Here is an interesting 1917 buffalo nickel that I got from “flea bay”
It has a die break near the L in LIBERTY. Walter Breen referred to it as a proof in his 1992 U S Coin Encyclopedia which was released in 1992. For over 25 years I always checked buffs for this die break. I thought if this die was also used to strike business coinage then some of the circa buffs I ran across would have this die break. But I found nothing, not a single coin with this die break until I stumbled across this coin, which by the way has sharp squared edges which are brilliant just like a you would expect on a proof coin.

Proof or not (probably not) that is a helluva coin.

Insider2

@BUFFNIXX said:
Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
The above is posted for “Roger B”. Amy more derogatory personal remarks from him and I will report him for sure.

I don't know the "history" if any between you two but best to use a PM.

You are a valuable member and Roger is also. I felt he crossed the line too. Sooner or later, some of us do (me for example). You have a really nice set (coin, cert, letter). I'll bet Roger appreciates the significance of the set (as I do) although he does not agree with ANACS or Breen.

Think about it for a minute. If Roger had to go or I had to go or if Roger had to go or you had to go, Roger would still be here and you and I would not. Tomorrow is a new day and best of all, you have the set!

7Jaguars

I'd like to see for myself one day, maybe you come to the Baltimore shows? My background is more in the British late milled silver and copper, but have been through various semantic wars on specimen vs. proof like vs. proof, etc.

Insider2

@crazyhounddog said: "Robec is a very well respected member of this forum and knows his way around coins, especially Lincoln cent proof coins. Robec is my coinbrother from the word go and I do listen up when he talks coins."

I felt I didn't deserve this: "I love how you assign labels to those that don't share or agree with your opinion......nice touch." A contemporary of Breen (Robec) is in no way a "Johnny-come-lately." So even if he disagrees with Breen my post does not apply to him. The only thing that possibly could apply would be if that long time collector had not been as qualified as you say he is.

The fact that @Robec did not post anything leads me to believe he understood my second post completely and he is extremely comfortable with his personal numismatic skills and standing with others.

OR he is already in bed as that's where I'm going.

DMWJR

1917 was a damn good year for high grade, well struck business strike coins.

cameonut2011

@Insider2 said:
I get sick when "Johnny-come-lately" collectors, dealers, and assorted coin "ex-perts" blast Breen. He is of a different time. We stand on his shoulders and those of all researchers who came before us. Most of the knowledge of many famous numismatists has been eclipsed as their work has been expanded and corrected. That is the way of science.

PS I'll remine all of you who were around back then and those who were not that Walter didn't have a moment of peace at a show as a gaggle of professional dealers were surrounding him for his opinion. I was one of them!

If you believe Breen's daughter Moira and the other kids, there is no question that Breen (an early NAMBLA co-founder/keynote speaker and convicted peophile) was a sociopath. Sociopaths are serial liars that will lie about ANYTHING. That undermines his credibility IMHO. Coupled with the problems with many of his numismatic attributions, there is ample reason to question everything he says. I won't give him the benefit of any doubt coin wise or otherwise. There was nothing great about him or anything that he did. His coin works read like the 20th century numismatic version of Grimm's Fairy Tales.