@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Please - there’s no jealousy. We swept you chumps, remember?
When Brady retires, the Pats will
go back to irrelevance. He’s not the whole team but covers up/for so much dysfunctionality.
The Giants have never once had a QB that good and have won several Superbowls.
Chumps? LOL ok, check the history of both teams then laugh at yourself, but it’s ok I know your sick of NE winning over and over again. It’s frustrating I know.. lol
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
I think you are the one that needs an education. The Cowboys are 64-46-2 against the Giants.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Please - there’s no jealousy. We swept you chumps, remember?
When Brady retires, the Pats will
go back to irrelevance. He’s not the whole team but covers up/for so much dysfunctionality.
The Giants have never once had a QB that good and have won several Superbowls.
Chumps? LOL ok, check the history of both teams then laugh at yourself, but it’s ok I know your sick of NE winning over and over again. It’s frustrating I know.. lol
Ok - I checked my history. Add the Patriots to the list of franchises that poached Hall Of Fame head coaches from the Giants. And without the Giants being the driving force behind revenue sharing (while having the greatest revenue stream in the league, mind you), there is no competitive balance and likely no NFL.
Yes, I am sick of the Patriots winning - though now there’s a good amount of losing too; not in the regular season, where you get six games a year against franchises that have not had a high quality QB since Kelly, Marino and Joe NAMATH - are you ($&:&(/$&#*^> kidding me???? ). I mean, is it fair and accurate to say the second best team in division during the atom Brady era is the New York Jetropolitans? I’m going to stop talking and let that sink in...
....now, more importantly Pats Super Bowls have never come at the expense of my beloved New York Giants. When it comes to the Super Bowl, we beat the Patriots so bad people though they owed us money!
Twice.
History class is over - I suggest you study.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
I think you are the one that needs an education. The Cowboys are 64-46-2 against the Giants.
I know.
By the way, I wanted to watch the highlights of the last time the Cowboys won a SuperBowl but I don’t have a VCR anymore.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
I think you are the one that needs an education. The Cowboys are 64-46-2 against the Giants.
I know.
By the way, I wanted to watch the highlights of the last time the Cowboys won a SuperBowl but I don’t have a VCR anymore.
That's a good one, but we are still ahead of you in SB wins. Also, do you remember the 1976 WS when the Big Red Machine sweep the Mighty Yanks? We all have our favorite times. My Cowboys won the SB 3 out of 4 years in the 90's.
It's all good. I actually like the Yanks now. They have a pitcher from my area (Green) and the Big Red Machine is long gone. That was one heck of a team with Rose and the gang.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
I think you are the one that needs an education. The Cowboys are 64-46-2 against the Giants.
I know.
By the way, I wanted to watch the highlights of the last time the Cowboys won a SuperBowl but I don’t have a VCR anymore.
If anyone out there is still a Cowboys fan, that has to really sting. LOL
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
I think you are the one that needs an education. The Cowboys are 64-46-2 against the Giants.
I know.
By the way, I wanted to watch the highlights of the last time the Cowboys won a SuperBowl but I don’t have a VCR anymore.
If anyone out there is still a Cowboys fan, that has to really sting. LOL
I'm still here Steve...…..You know what goes around...….comes around!
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Please - there’s no jealousy. We swept you chumps, remember?
When Brady retires, the Pats will
go back to irrelevance. He’s not the whole team but covers up/for so much dysfunctionality.
The Giants have never once had a QB that good and have won several Superbowls.
Chumps? LOL ok, check the history of both teams then laugh at yourself, but it’s ok I know your sick of NE winning over and over again. It’s frustrating I know.. lol
Ok - I checked my history. Add the Patriots to the list of franchises that poached Hall Of Fame head coaches from the Giants. And without the Giants being the driving force behind revenue sharing (while having the greatest revenue stream in the league, mind you), there is no competitive balance and likely no NFL.
Yes, I am sick of the Patriots winning - though now there’s a good amount of losing too; not in the regular season, where you get six games a year against franchises that have not had a high quality QB since Kelly, Marino and Joe NAMATH - are you ($&:&(/$&#*^> kidding me???? ). I mean, is it fair and accurate to say the second best team in division during the atom Brady era is the New York Jetropolitans? I’m going to stop talking and let that sink in...
....now, more importantly Pats Super Bowls have never come at the expense of my beloved New York Giants. When it comes to the Super Bowl, we beat the Patriots so bad people though they owed us money!
Twice.
History class is over - I suggest you study.
Again your butthurt I get it. It’s easier to just scream”Whaaaaaaaa” I mean the Giants franchise is a joke compared to New England, year after year we are in the playoffs, AFC Championship or Super Bowl, no team in the history of the NFL can compare with the 20 year run we have had period. Go cry in your cherrios about Belichek gimme a break
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
I think you are the one that needs an education. The Cowboys are 64-46-2 against the Giants.
I know.
By the way, I wanted to watch the highlights of the last time the Cowboys won a SuperBowl but I don’t have a VCR anymore.
That's a good one, but we are still ahead of you in SB wins. Also, do you remember the 1976 WS when the Big Red Machine sweep the Mighty Yanks? We all have our favorite times. My Cowboys won the SB 3 out of 4 years in the 90's.
It's all good. I actually like the Yanks now. They have a pitcher from my area (Green) and the Big Red Machine is long gone. That was one heck of a team with Rose and the gang.
I remember having intense hatred for Emmett Smith. When he separated his shoulder and ran for another 100 yards after may have been my least favorite game of all time as a Giant fan. One of the best performances I ever saw on a football field.
Of course, I could watch new episodes of Seinfeld at that time, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@perkdog said:
I mean I’m not even bringing up the most pathetic failure in the entire history of sports, the ‘04 Yankees lol
Another way to view it as the end of the most pathetic failure in sports, the 1919-2003 Red Sox.
If last century is any indication, you should really try to enjoy this season...
Here is 2 facts to try and wrap your head around. #1 Nothing in Sports history is ever going to be more pathetic than the Yankees in ‘04. #2. The Brady Era Patriots is and will be the best run of any NFL Franchise EVER. 2 Facts that deep down every NY’er knows
That's just so nice that Brady has those Super Bowl rings, but it's really too bad that Brady didn't get one more because of the below event from the most recently completed NFL season:
That makes the Patriots 1-3 against NFC East teams in the Super Bowl?
And if Russell Wilson handed the ball off to Marshawn Lynch, the Falcons didn’t fall apart completely and the Patriots didn’t steal the playbook/videotape the Rams and Panthers, I wonder what we would think of this great franchise.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
That makes the Patriots 1-3 against NFC East teams in the Super Bowl?
And if Russell Wilson handed the ball off to Marshawn Lynch, the Falcons didn’t fall apart completely and the Patriots didn’t steal the playbook/videotape the Rams and Panthers, I wonder what we would think of this great franchise.
And if it were not for that loser Norwood the Giants lose to the Bills, if it were not for the luckiest playoff run ever the Giants wouldn’t have even made it to the ‘07 Super Bowl, if that back up nobody Tyree didn’t make that stupid 1 in a billion circus catch they lose, if the red blew the whistle while Manning was wrapped up he wouldn’t have made that lucky throw. If Manningham didn’t make that 1 in a billion Catch the Giants lose in ‘11. Let’s not talk “What ifs” because your team has more than most other teams for sure. The Pats have plenty too but again don’t you dare go there because you will be embarrassing yourself
I know I will not get much agreement on this and since I have been a lifelong Browns fan I'll sound like a "homer" but based on only their participation from 1946-1995 Cleveland had a very strong influence and claim in this discussion. all the relevant statistics are on page one so I won't repeat them, I will only add the influence wielded by Art Modell.
not many people know that Art Modell was an advertising attorney/executive and not necessarily a wealthy man when he "purchased" the Cleveland Browns, his wife was the one with money. all that aside, Modell used his business savvy to negotiate with the different networks(ABC-NBC-CBS) and the TV contracts he secured changed how we watch and enjoy not only the NFL, but all sports. he saw the dollars and changed revenue sharing.
he was instrumental in arranging and conceiving Monday Night Football even though Roone Arledge at ABC and NFL Commissioner Pete Roselle tend to be given credit. Modell's reward --- the Cleveland Browns were given the first MNF game and it was played in the old Municipal Stadium. I attended the game against the Jets and the highlight for me was the second half kick return by Homer Jones for a Touchdown. the roar of 86,000+ fans can be deafening and dwarfs any noise they think they make in Seattle.
another overlooked aspect of Modell which his Team, the Cleveland Browns, figured in was re-alignment and merger. as also engaged in those discussions he agreed to have the Team moved to the new AFC. many don't realize that while all this was going on he was paying Paul Brown to not coach in the NFL because one of the first things Modell did was fire Brown. by doing so, he inadvertently created another NFL franchise, the Cincinnatti Bengals.
during the 46-95 timeframe the Browns were as dominant and influential as any franchise. to discount them because of what has been going on since their return is a bit disingenuous --- unless you are willing to view all other franchises the same. the New England claim is based on their recent success and ignores their previous mediocrity. the Steelers fortunes from the mid-70's forward ignore them being the NFL doormat for decades. so it is with most every franchise.
@1951WheatiesPremium
Tom Brady has a 76-20 career record versus the AFC East for a .790 winning percentage.
Versus the rest of the NFL,Tom Brady has a 120-37 career record for a .764 career winning percentage.
Those numbers don't include his 27-10 playoff record.
I'll be the first to admit the teams in his division have been crap over the years but go look at the teams that beat NE each year and you'll see close to half of the Patriots losses came from within their own division.
2017: 13-3 (one loss to Miami)
2016: 14-2 (one loss to Buffalo)
2015: 12-4 (one loss to each of Miami & NYJ)
2014: 12-4 (one loss to each of Miami & Buffalo)
2013: 12-4 (one loss to each of Miami & NYJ)
I can keep going and its more of the same. Brady & NE has had only two seasons out of seventeen where they went 6-0 in their division,2007 & 2012.
The notion that NE's success is due to beating the Fins,Bills & Jets is ludacris when their overall record vs the entire league is a few percentage points below their division record.
If you're gonna give history lessons about the New England Patriots,at least get a clue to what you're talking about first.
Keets, no disrespect but you can analyze it any way you want but the Browns literally are the laughing stock of the NFL. Sure in the ‘50’s they were great, they had a few good seasons back in the early 90’s too but let’s be real here they are the poster child for how not to run an NFL franchise.
I hope the Mayfield pick pans out for them and he is successful, I like him as he has an aggressive attitude and can hopefully bring some fire into the organization. I thought they could have done better with their next first round pick this past draft but maybe it will be a good one too.
It drives me absolutely nuts when I type out a fairly long comment then click on "post comment" and the thing disappears on me while waiting for approval. My comment to you above took about 8 tries before actually getting posted.
I hope it is obvious that I’m having a little fun with you. I know how great the Pats are. As a Giant fan, I know we were just a good matchup problem for you and exploited it twice.
However, playing with three inept franchises makes a HUGE difference. How many times has one game in the standings been the difference in having top seed or home field in the AFC? You can’t act like having to play fewer games, getting a week off and playing at Gillette - the reward for regular season prowess - isn’t based on playing in a division that hasn’t seen another franchise QB* during the time.
*its possible I’m selling someone short - Chad Pennington was closest, if I recall. Don’t give me Brett the Jet - he was texting bad pics and throwing them.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I hope it is obvious that I’m having a little fun with you. I know how great the Pats are. As a Giant fan, I know we were just a good matchup problem for you and exploited it twice.
However, playing with three inept franchises makes a HUGE difference. How many times has one game in the standings been the difference in having top seed or home field in the AFC? You can’t act like having to play fewer games, getting a week off and playing at Gillette - the reward for regular season prowess - isn’t based on playing in a division that hasn’t seen another franchise QB* during the time.
*its possible I’m selling someone short - Chad Pennington was closest, if I recall. Don’t give me Brett the Jet - he was texting bad pics and throwing them.
No worries, Its all good. I get what you're saying but what is really a HUGE difference is usually NE wins the games they're supposed to win putting them in position for that top seed and a bye. Going 4-2/5-1 in the AFC East goes a long way towards that #1/#2 seed but they still have 10 other games that they need to win most years.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
*its possible I’m selling someone short - Chad Pennington was closest, if I recall. Don’t give me Brett the Jet - he was texting bad pics and throwing them.
Pennington was good,Favre was ok and probably the next best three QBs in the East were Ryan Fitzpatrick (Yikes!),Chad Henne and Ryan Tannehill,maybe add Tyrod Taylor in there.
I honestly think those three other East teams spent/wasted so many years trying to build a team to beat NE when they only played them twice a season. IMO they should have been building teams to compete in those other 14 games.
Everyone saw the Giants blueprint on how to stop Brady by harassing him with a 4 man front especially up the middle. So the East teams made their defensive lines their strongest unit (Bills- Mario Williams,Dareus,Kyle Williams & Jerry Hughes)(Fins- Suh,Wake,Olivier Vernon)(Jets-Wilkerson,Richardson & Leonard Williams). They got their sacks on Brady and a win every now & then but it came at the cost of other holes in their roster.
I hope it is obvious that I’m having a little fun with you. I know how great the Pats are. As a Giant fan, I know we were just a good matchup problem for you and exploited it twice.
However, playing with three inept franchises makes a HUGE difference. How many times has one game in the standings been the difference in having top seed or home field in the AFC? You can’t act like having to play fewer games, getting a week off and playing at Gillette - the reward for regular season prowess - isn’t based on playing in a division that hasn’t seen another franchise QB* during the time.
*its possible I’m selling someone short - Chad Pennington was closest, if I recall. Don’t give me Brett the Jet - he was texting bad pics and throwing them.
Fair enough and thank you, I didn’t know you were joking. The AFC East has its advantages, there is no question about it.
@keets said:
I know I will not get much agreement on this and since I have been a lifelong Browns fan I'll sound like a "homer" but based on only their participation from 1946-1995 Cleveland had a very strong influence and claim in this discussion. all the relevant statistics are on page one so I won't repeat them, I will only add the influence wielded by Art Modell.
not many people know that Art Modell was an advertising attorney/executive and not necessarily a wealthy man when he "purchased" the Cleveland Browns, his wife was the one with money. all that aside, Modell used his business savvy to negotiate with the different networks(ABC-NBC-CBS) and the TV contracts he secured changed how we watch and enjoy not only the NFL, but all sports. he saw the dollars and changed revenue sharing.
he was instrumental in arranging and conceiving Monday Night Football even though Roone Arledge at ABC and NFL Commissioner Pete Roselle tend to be given credit. Modell's reward --- the Cleveland Browns were given the first MNF game and it was played in the old Municipal Stadium. I attended the game against the Jets and the highlight for me was the second half kick return by Homer Jones for a Touchdown. the roar of 86,000+ fans can be deafening and dwarfs any noise they think they make in Seattle.
another overlooked aspect of Modell which his Team, the Cleveland Browns, figured in was re-alignment and merger. as also engaged in those discussions he agreed to have the Team moved to the new AFC. many don't realize that while all this was going on he was paying Paul Brown to not coach in the NFL because one of the first things Modell did was fire Brown. by doing so, he inadvertently created another NFL franchise, the Cincinnatti Bengals.
during the 46-95 timeframe the Browns were as dominant and influential as any franchise. to discount them because of what has been going on since their return is a bit disingenuous --- unless you are willing to view all other franchises the same. the New England claim is based on their recent success and ignores their previous mediocrity. the Steelers fortunes from the mid-70's forward ignore them being the NFL doormat for decades. so it is with most every franchise.
Actually, what you should point out is that the Browns franchise added TWO more titles since 1995 - albeit under the name Baltimore Ravens.
That team in Cleveland now has the distinction of an expansion franchise to me...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@keets said:
I know I will not get much agreement on this and since I have been a lifelong Browns fan I'll sound like a "homer" but based on only their participation from 1946-1995 Cleveland had a very strong influence and claim in this discussion. all the relevant statistics are on page one so I won't repeat them, I will only add the influence wielded by Art Modell.
not many people know that Art Modell was an advertising attorney/executive and not necessarily a wealthy man when he "purchased" the Cleveland Browns, his wife was the one with money. all that aside, Modell used his business savvy to negotiate with the different networks(ABC-NBC-CBS) and the TV contracts he secured changed how we watch and enjoy not only the NFL, but all sports. he saw the dollars and changed revenue sharing.
he was instrumental in arranging and conceiving Monday Night Football even though Roone Arledge at ABC and NFL Commissioner Pete Roselle tend to be given credit. Modell's reward --- the Cleveland Browns were given the first MNF game and it was played in the old Municipal Stadium. I attended the game against the Jets and the highlight for me was the second half kick return by Homer Jones for a Touchdown. the roar of 86,000+ fans can be deafening and dwarfs any noise they think they make in Seattle.
another overlooked aspect of Modell which his Team, the Cleveland Browns, figured in was re-alignment and merger. as also engaged in those discussions he agreed to have the Team moved to the new AFC. many don't realize that while all this was going on he was paying Paul Brown to not coach in the NFL because one of the first things Modell did was fire Brown. by doing so, he inadvertently created another NFL franchise, the Cincinnatti Bengals.
during the 46-95 timeframe the Browns were as dominant and influential as any franchise. to discount them because of what has been going on since their return is a bit disingenuous --- unless you are willing to view all other franchises the same. the New England claim is based on their recent success and ignores their previous mediocrity. the Steelers fortunes from the mid-70's forward ignore them being the NFL doormat for decades. so it is with most every franchise.
Actually, what you should point out is that the Browns franchise added TWO more titles since 1995 - albeit under the name Baltimore Ravens.
That team in Cleveland now has the distinction of an expansion franchise to me...
You are right its not the same team , they don't get credit for any of those early seasons. Different team no connection to any of that old stuff .
I have never claimed the current Browns aren't embarrassing. my comparisons have always stopped at 1995 because of the thinking like what 1951 pointed out, they are now an expansion Team with the original name.
@keets said:
I have never claimed the current Browns aren't embarrassing. my comparisons have always stopped at 1995 because of the thinking like what 1951 pointed out, they are now an expansion Team with the original name.
I'm confused why you didn't just switch to being a Baltimore fan.
I think if a new team comes in and names themselves after the old team then theres no way I'd have anything to do with them. That is just so bizarre . I mean its not even a real name its a color
@keets said:
I have never claimed the current Browns aren't embarrassing. my comparisons have always stopped at 1995 because of the thinking like what 1951 pointed out, they are now an expansion Team with the original name.
I'm confused why you didn't just switch to being a Baltimore fan.
I think if a new team comes in and names themselves after the old team then theres no way I'd have anything to do with them. That is just so bizarre . I mean its not even a real name its a color
How old are you? I’m not knocking you for it if you’re young but the way the ‘Ravens’ left Cleveland was an utter disgrace. Check it out if you didnt see or don’t remember. I can’t imagine I’d be able to root for them anymore either.
The short version is Art Modell literally packed up the team in the middle of the night and moved to Baltimore without much warning to the league or (more importantly) the city that this was going to go down.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@keets said:
I have never claimed the current Browns aren't embarrassing. my comparisons have always stopped at 1995 because of the thinking like what 1951 pointed out, they are now an expansion Team with the original name.
I'm confused why you didn't just switch to being a Baltimore fan.
I think if a new team comes in and names themselves after the old team then theres no way I'd have anything to do with them. That is just so bizarre . I mean its not even a real name its a color
How old are you? I’m not knocking you for it if you’re young but the way the ‘Ravens’ left Cleveland was an utter disgrace. Check it out if you didnt see or don’t remember. I can’t imagine I’d be able to root for them anymore either.
The short version is Art Modell literally packed up the team in the middle of the night and moved to Baltimore without much warning to the league or (more importantly) the city that this was going to go down.
I was living in the mountains for a few years around the time and honestly don't remember watching much football at the time.
I just read the wikipedia page. I don't think I would choose to be a fan of either team now , what a disgrace. In fact it makes the entire league look bad.
There should be a law against taxpayers paying for buildings for any of these losers.
what happened is the fallout of Al Davis and his battles with Pete Rozell and the NFL. I'm not certain who the winners have been but it is clear who the losers always are. for my own part, my tax dollars haven't helped build the new Browns Stadium and I have never been in it for anything, NFL or other event. it is peculiar that fans keep paying for construction of these buildings and agonizing over the loss of Teams. if the requirement was that the NFL or a franchise build their own facility I don't really think many Teams would be moving out of them.
h like Tax Abatement: locales are so strapped for cash so they get swindled into giving Manufacturers relief from taxes and dump it on the citizens who don't reap much from the business. then what typically happens is the Manufacturer when their abatement ends.
@keets said:
I have never claimed the current Browns aren't embarrassing. my comparisons have always stopped at 1995 because of the thinking like what 1951 pointed out, they are now an expansion Team with the original name.
I'm confused why you didn't just switch to being a Baltimore fan.
I think if a new team comes in and names themselves after the old team then theres no way I'd have anything to do with them. That is just so bizarre . I mean its not even a real name its a color
How old are you? I’m not knocking you for it if you’re young but the way the ‘Ravens’ left Cleveland was an utter disgrace. Check it out if you didnt see or don’t remember. I can’t imagine I’d be able to root for them anymore either.
The short version is Art Modell literally packed up the team in the middle of the night and moved to Baltimore without much warning to the league or (more importantly) the city that this was going to go down.
I was living in the mountains for a few years around the time and honestly don't remember watching much football at the time.
I just read the wikipedia page. I don't think I would choose to be a fan of either team now , what a disgrace. In fact it makes the entire league look bad.
There should be a law against taxpayers paying for buildings for any of these losers.
And hey I didn’t mean anything by my ‘age’ comment - hope it didn’t offend.
I just remember the whole thing being disgusting and I didn’t even fully understand all the implications and ramifications (at the time) of such a move. I always thought threatening to move a franchise (as negotiating tactic with local government/stadium owner) was in poor taste as your core fan base can’t move with you.
While baseball expanding across the nation Was undeniably good for baseball, the downside of Walter O’Malley’s fallout and with a somewhat unreasonable but civic minded Robert Moses is that teams had precedent to take a better deal in another city...
...as for the Browns/Ravens, the ‘There aughta be a rule...’ mentality reigned supreme after, hence why he Chargers and the Raiders needing ‘permission*’ to relocate. To the best of my knowledge, neither the citizens of San Diego nor Oakland were not consulted or considered at any point.
*”Fellow owners, can I go somewhere I can mark up my beer by 555% instead of the standard 450%?
All In favor? AYE!
All opposed?
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Perhaps fans in Cleveland should be rooting for the Ravens. Perhaps fans in Baltimore should be rooting for Indianapolis. Perhaps Rams fans should be rooting for Cleveland.
@keets said:
what happened is the fallout of Al Davis and his battles with Pete Rozell and the NFL. I'm not certain who the winners have been but it is clear who the losers always are. for my own part, my tax dollars haven't helped build the new Browns Stadium and I have never been in it for anything, NFL or other event. it is peculiar that fans keep paying for construction of these buildings and agonizing over the loss of Teams. if the requirement was that the NFL or a franchise build their own facility I don't really think many Teams would be moving out of them.
h like Tax Abatement: locales are so strapped for cash so they get swindled into giving Manufacturers relief from taxes and dump it on the citizens who don't reap much from the business. then what typically happens is the Manufacturer when their abatement ends.
the Sports Team owners employ a similar tactic.
keets - if I were you I would say pi$$ on the Ravens (ex-Browns). I wouldn't consider the Browns (now) an expansion team. I would consider the City the team. So the owner left.....the players come and go anyway. The Browns your Cleveland Browns are the ones I would be loyal to.
Heck....I wish Jerry would do the same...…. then I would have a new and better Cowboys team to be for!
@keets said:
what happened is the fallout of Al Davis and his battles with Pete Rozell and the NFL. I'm not certain who the winners have been but it is clear who the losers always are. for my own part, my tax dollars haven't helped build the new Browns Stadium and I have never been in it for anything, NFL or other event. it is peculiar that fans keep paying for construction of these buildings and agonizing over the loss of Teams. if the requirement was that the NFL or a franchise build their own facility I don't really think many Teams would be moving out of them.
h like Tax Abatement: locales are so strapped for cash so they get swindled into giving Manufacturers relief from taxes and dump it on the citizens who don't reap much from the business. then what typically happens is the Manufacturer when their abatement ends.
the Sports Team owners employ a similar tactic.
keets - if I were you I would say pi$$ on the Ravens (ex-Browns). I wouldn't consider the Browns (now) an expansion team. I would consider the City the team. So the owner left.....the players come and go anyway. The Browns your Cleveland Browns are the ones I would be loyal to.
Heck....I wish Jerry would do the same...…. then I would have a new and better Cowboys team to be for!
I will say though when I have moved away from new england I didn't switch allegiances to other teams. Its not nostalgia that would be pathetic obviously. Its more the feeling of not being grounded with a new team. I mean who are these jamokes , I don't know these players. I don't know who the career leaders are for this team are , the fans are wearing player jerseys that don't mean anything to me.
There is also the fact that its hard to root for a team you have wished death on . I was living in Colorado I go see the Patriots play Denver just to stir up those loser Bronco fans. Which was tough because my Colorado family were season ticket holders , also that was a stretch where we flat out could not win in Denver. So I'd just go see them lose right? I mean I was used to making fun of John Elway with his stupid looking buck teeth, now I'm supposed to buy a Elway shirt? Nope !!!!
I even took my Colorado family to see a bruins game in the first season of the Avalanche . I was like this quebec team sucked the Bruins are going to kill them , ummm Wrong!!!! We got slaughtered oops. It was like 7-2 . They went on to win the cup !!! It was so embarrassing The tickets were cheap there too that season you could get in for under $20 . I refused to go again. There was no way I can root for a team with Patrick Roy on it , I hated that guy. I was cheering when he gave up 9 goals in that one game. He was the enemy .
Actually it seems as though being a fan is idiotic. I mean that year in Denver before they won the cup I could have gone to 40 hockey games cheap , just walking in off the street but I refused to go and how did I gain ?
Being a team fan is really stupid . It must be some sort of mental illness.
@fergie23 said:
My older brother has done multiple tours in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I remember talking to him before he headed out to Iraq for the first time and he told me how excited he was to help bring democracy and freedom to the Iraqis. I talked to him after his second tour and he said "we should get the hell out of there". As for Afghanistan there aren't any words he used that I could repeat on this board. Both wars are a total farce and done nothing to make America safer, the sooner we get the heck out of there the better.
Robb
Believe the following if you will. We had a tenant,until he purchased a home, who served 6 stints in Afgan. He retired 3 years ago at the rank of Major. He told us furthering democracy there by the US has nothing to do with that war. Follow the $ was his message.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@perkdog said:
No war since WW2 has made the United States “Safer” if anything it’s done the opposite, more people in the world hates us for us sticking our nose where it don’t belong.
And then we,the U.S., are surprised when the countrymen "over there" fight for their country to reject our involvement. To let them follow their own destiny, right or wrong. We, the U.S. as a country would fight just as hard for our rights to run our country as we see fit were we to be invaded. Sometimes it looks like we fight these wars "over there" so we won't have to fight them "over here".
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Comments
If this thread had any merit whatsoever, we’d be discussing the New York Giants and the Pittsburgh Steelers basedon the title of the thread.
The Pats have been relevant the last 20 years only. The Cowboys have not been relevant for 20 years.
That’s it - carry on.
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The title is "2 of" not "the 2" ……….the Steelers are in there too. Giants no way!
The NFL would not exist without these two franchises. That’s as matter of fact as it gets - there can be no greatness without a league in existence. Not to mention the championships won and appeared in. Or the fact that the Packers and Cowboys franchises were built on coaches poached from the Giants.
Come on - educate yourself
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What’s next? The Red Sox in baseball as ‘greatest’ franchise?
Well, if you don’t count last century...
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Another Jealous Pats hater Yawn
Please - there’s no jealousy. We swept you chumps, remember?
When Brady retires, the Pats will
go back to irrelevance. He’s not the whole team but covers up/for so much dysfunctionality.
The Giants have never once had a QB that good and have won several Superbowls.
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Chumps? LOL ok, check the history of both teams then laugh at yourself, but it’s ok I know your sick of NE winning over and over again. It’s frustrating I know.. lol
I think you are the one that needs an education. The Cowboys are 64-46-2 against the Giants.
Ok - I checked my history. Add the Patriots to the list of franchises that poached Hall Of Fame head coaches from the Giants. And without the Giants being the driving force behind revenue sharing (while having the greatest revenue stream in the league, mind you), there is no competitive balance and likely no NFL.
Yes, I am sick of the Patriots winning - though now there’s a good amount of losing too; not in the regular season, where you get six games a year against franchises that have not had a high quality QB since Kelly, Marino and Joe NAMATH - are you ($&:&(/$&#*^> kidding me???? ). I mean, is it fair and accurate to say the second best team in division during the atom Brady era is the New York Jetropolitans? I’m going to stop talking and let that sink in...
....now, more importantly Pats Super Bowls have never come at the expense of my beloved New York Giants. When it comes to the Super Bowl, we beat the Patriots so bad people though they owed us money!
Twice.
History class is over - I suggest you study.
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I know.
By the way, I wanted to watch the highlights of the last time the Cowboys won a SuperBowl but I don’t have a VCR anymore.
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That's a good one, but we are still ahead of you in SB wins.
Also, do you remember the 1976 WS when the Big Red Machine sweep the Mighty Yanks? We all have our favorite times. My Cowboys won the SB 3 out of 4 years in the 90's.
It's all good. I actually like the Yanks now. They have a pitcher from my area (Green) and the Big Red Machine is long gone. That was one heck of a team with Rose and the gang.
If anyone out there is still a Cowboys fan, that has to really sting. LOL
I'm still here Steve...…..You know what goes around...….comes around!
Jerry Jones is the bestest NFL owner ever.
Me luvs Jerry Jones
Again your butthurt I get it. It’s easier to just scream”Whaaaaaaaa” I mean the Giants franchise is a joke compared to New England, year after year we are in the playoffs, AFC Championship or Super Bowl, no team in the history of the NFL can compare with the 20 year run we have had period. Go cry in your cherrios about Belichek gimme a break
I mean I’m not even bringing up the most pathetic failure in the entire history of sports, the ‘04 Yankees lol
Not sure if I can post - I seem to need approval...
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Nope. Works.
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Another way to view it as the end of the most pathetic failure in sports, the 1919-2003 Red Sox.
If last century is any indication, you should really try to enjoy this season...
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I remember having intense hatred for Emmett Smith. When he separated his shoulder and ran for another 100 yards after may have been my least favorite game of all time as a Giant fan. One of the best performances I ever saw on a football field.
Of course, I could watch new episodes of Seinfeld at that time, too.
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Here is 2 facts to try and wrap your head around. #1 Nothing in Sports history is ever going to be more pathetic than the Yankees in ‘04. #2. The Brady Era Patriots is and will be the best run of any NFL Franchise EVER. 2 Facts that deep down every NY’er knows
You left out the Giants in this poster.
That's just so nice that Brady has those Super Bowl rings, but it's really too bad that Brady didn't get one more because of the below event from the most recently completed NFL season:
That makes the Patriots 1-3 against NFC East teams in the Super Bowl?
And if Russell Wilson handed the ball off to Marshawn Lynch, the Falcons didn’t fall apart completely and the Patriots didn’t steal the playbook/videotape the Rams and Panthers, I wonder what we would think of this great franchise.
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And if it were not for that loser Norwood the Giants lose to the Bills, if it were not for the luckiest playoff run ever the Giants wouldn’t have even made it to the ‘07 Super Bowl, if that back up nobody Tyree didn’t make that stupid 1 in a billion circus catch they lose, if the red blew the whistle while Manning was wrapped up he wouldn’t have made that lucky throw. If Manningham didn’t make that 1 in a billion Catch the Giants lose in ‘11. Let’s not talk “What ifs” because your team has more than most other teams for sure. The Pats have plenty too but again don’t you dare go there because you will be embarrassing yourself
I know I will not get much agreement on this and since I have been a lifelong Browns fan I'll sound like a "homer" but based on only their participation from 1946-1995 Cleveland had a very strong influence and claim in this discussion. all the relevant statistics are on page one so I won't repeat them, I will only add the influence wielded by Art Modell.
not many people know that Art Modell was an advertising attorney/executive and not necessarily a wealthy man when he "purchased" the Cleveland Browns, his wife was the one with money. all that aside, Modell used his business savvy to negotiate with the different networks(ABC-NBC-CBS) and the TV contracts he secured changed how we watch and enjoy not only the NFL, but all sports. he saw the dollars and changed revenue sharing.
he was instrumental in arranging and conceiving Monday Night Football even though Roone Arledge at ABC and NFL Commissioner Pete Roselle tend to be given credit. Modell's reward --- the Cleveland Browns were given the first MNF game and it was played in the old Municipal Stadium. I attended the game against the Jets and the highlight for me was the second half kick return by Homer Jones for a Touchdown. the roar of 86,000+ fans can be deafening and dwarfs any noise they think they make in Seattle.
another overlooked aspect of Modell which his Team, the Cleveland Browns, figured in was re-alignment and merger. as also engaged in those discussions he agreed to have the Team moved to the new AFC. many don't realize that while all this was going on he was paying Paul Brown to not coach in the NFL because one of the first things Modell did was fire Brown. by doing so, he inadvertently created another NFL franchise, the Cincinnatti Bengals.
during the 46-95 timeframe the Browns were as dominant and influential as any franchise. to discount them because of what has been going on since their return is a bit disingenuous --- unless you are willing to view all other franchises the same. the New England claim is based on their recent success and ignores their previous mediocrity. the Steelers fortunes from the mid-70's forward ignore them being the NFL doormat for decades. so it is with most every franchise.
@1951WheatiesPremium
Tom Brady has a 76-20 career record versus the AFC East for a .790 winning percentage.
Versus the rest of the NFL,Tom Brady has a 120-37 career record for a .764 career winning percentage.
Those numbers don't include his 27-10 playoff record.
I'll be the first to admit the teams in his division have been crap over the years but go look at the teams that beat NE each year and you'll see close to half of the Patriots losses came from within their own division.
2017: 13-3 (one loss to Miami)
2016: 14-2 (one loss to Buffalo)
2015: 12-4 (one loss to each of Miami & NYJ)
2014: 12-4 (one loss to each of Miami & Buffalo)
2013: 12-4 (one loss to each of Miami & NYJ)
I can keep going and its more of the same. Brady & NE has had only two seasons out of seventeen where they went 6-0 in their division,2007 & 2012.
The notion that NE's success is due to beating the Fins,Bills & Jets is ludacris when their overall record vs the entire league is a few percentage points below their division record.
If you're gonna give history lessons about the New England Patriots,at least get a clue to what you're talking about first.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Keets, no disrespect but you can analyze it any way you want but the Browns literally are the laughing stock of the NFL. Sure in the ‘50’s they were great, they had a few good seasons back in the early 90’s too but let’s be real here they are the poster child for how not to run an NFL franchise.
I hope the Mayfield pick pans out for them and he is successful, I like him as he has an aggressive attitude and can hopefully bring some fire into the organization. I thought they could have done better with their next first round pick this past draft but maybe it will be a good one too.
It drives me absolutely nuts when I type out a fairly long comment then click on "post comment" and the thing disappears on me while waiting for approval. My comment to you above took about 8 tries before actually getting posted.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
@erikthredd
@perkdog
I hope it is obvious that I’m having a little fun with you. I know how great the Pats are. As a Giant fan, I know we were just a good matchup problem for you and exploited it twice.
However, playing with three inept franchises makes a HUGE difference. How many times has one game in the standings been the difference in having top seed or home field in the AFC? You can’t act like having to play fewer games, getting a week off and playing at Gillette - the reward for regular season prowess - isn’t based on playing in a division that hasn’t seen another franchise QB* during the time.
*its possible I’m selling someone short - Chad Pennington was closest, if I recall. Don’t give me Brett the Jet - he was texting bad pics and throwing them.
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No worries, Its all good. I get what you're saying but what is really a HUGE difference is usually NE wins the games they're supposed to win putting them in position for that top seed and a bye. Going 4-2/5-1 in the AFC East goes a long way towards that #1/#2 seed but they still have 10 other games that they need to win most years.
Eric
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Pennington was good,Favre was ok and probably the next best three QBs in the East were Ryan Fitzpatrick (Yikes!),Chad Henne and Ryan Tannehill,maybe add Tyrod Taylor in there.
I honestly think those three other East teams spent/wasted so many years trying to build a team to beat NE when they only played them twice a season. IMO they should have been building teams to compete in those other 14 games.
Everyone saw the Giants blueprint on how to stop Brady by harassing him with a 4 man front especially up the middle. So the East teams made their defensive lines their strongest unit (Bills- Mario Williams,Dareus,Kyle Williams & Jerry Hughes)(Fins- Suh,Wake,Olivier Vernon)(Jets-Wilkerson,Richardson & Leonard Williams). They got their sacks on Brady and a win every now & then but it came at the cost of other holes in their roster.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Fair enough and thank you, I didn’t know you were joking. The AFC East has its advantages, there is no question about it.
Actually, what you should point out is that the Browns franchise added TWO more titles since 1995 - albeit under the name Baltimore Ravens.
That team in Cleveland now has the distinction of an expansion franchise to me...
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You are right its not the same team , they don't get credit for any of those early seasons. Different team no connection to any of that old stuff .
I have never claimed the current Browns aren't embarrassing. my comparisons have always stopped at 1995 because of the thinking like what 1951 pointed out, they are now an expansion Team with the original name.
I'm confused why you didn't just switch to being a Baltimore fan.
I think if a new team comes in and names themselves after the old team then theres no way I'd have anything to do with them. That is just so bizarre . I mean its not even a real name its a color
How old are you? I’m not knocking you for it if you’re young but the way the ‘Ravens’ left Cleveland was an utter disgrace. Check it out if you didnt see or don’t remember. I can’t imagine I’d be able to root for them anymore either.
The short version is Art Modell literally packed up the team in the middle of the night and moved to Baltimore without much warning to the league or (more importantly) the city that this was going to go down.
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the deal was actually consummated inside of a Learjet on the Tarmac of an airport adjacent to the Stadium where the Browns played.
I was living in the mountains for a few years around the time and honestly don't remember watching much football at the time.
I just read the wikipedia page. I don't think I would choose to be a fan of either team now , what a disgrace. In fact it makes the entire league look bad.
There should be a law against taxpayers paying for buildings for any of these losers.
what happened is the fallout of Al Davis and his battles with Pete Rozell and the NFL. I'm not certain who the winners have been but it is clear who the losers always are. for my own part, my tax dollars haven't helped build the new Browns Stadium and I have never been in it for anything, NFL or other event. it is peculiar that fans keep paying for construction of these buildings and agonizing over the loss of Teams. if the requirement was that the NFL or a franchise build their own facility I don't really think many Teams would be moving out of them.
h like Tax Abatement: locales are so strapped for cash so they get swindled into giving Manufacturers relief from taxes and dump it on the citizens who don't reap much from the business. then what typically happens is the Manufacturer when their abatement ends.
the Sports Team owners employ a similar tactic.
And hey I didn’t mean anything by my ‘age’ comment - hope it didn’t offend.
I just remember the whole thing being disgusting and I didn’t even fully understand all the implications and ramifications (at the time) of such a move. I always thought threatening to move a franchise (as negotiating tactic with local government/stadium owner) was in poor taste as your core fan base can’t move with you.
While baseball expanding across the nation Was undeniably good for baseball, the downside of Walter O’Malley’s fallout and with a somewhat unreasonable but civic minded Robert Moses is that teams had precedent to take a better deal in another city...
...as for the Browns/Ravens, the ‘There aughta be a rule...’ mentality reigned supreme after, hence why he Chargers and the Raiders needing ‘permission*’ to relocate. To the best of my knowledge, neither the citizens of San Diego nor Oakland were not consulted or considered at any point.
*”Fellow owners, can I go somewhere I can mark up my beer by 555% instead of the standard 450%?
All In favor? AYE!
All opposed?
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Perhaps fans in Cleveland should be rooting for the Ravens. Perhaps fans in Baltimore should be rooting for Indianapolis. Perhaps Rams fans should be rooting for Cleveland.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
keets - if I were you I would say pi$$ on the Ravens (ex-Browns). I wouldn't consider the Browns (now) an expansion team. I would consider the City the team. So the owner left.....the players come and go anyway. The Browns your Cleveland Browns are the ones I would be loyal to.
Heck....I wish Jerry would do the same...…. then I would have a new and better Cowboys team to be for!
I will say though when I have moved away from new england I didn't switch allegiances to other teams. Its not nostalgia that would be pathetic obviously. Its more the feeling of not being grounded with a new team. I mean who are these jamokes , I don't know these players. I don't know who the career leaders are for this team are , the fans are wearing player jerseys that don't mean anything to me.
There is also the fact that its hard to root for a team you have wished death on . I was living in Colorado I go see the Patriots play Denver just to stir up those loser Bronco fans. Which was tough because my Colorado family were season ticket holders
, also that was a stretch where we flat out could not win in Denver. So I'd just go see them lose right? I mean I was used to making fun of John Elway with his stupid looking buck teeth, now I'm supposed to buy a Elway shirt? Nope !!!!
I even took my Colorado family to see a bruins game in the first season of the Avalanche . I was like this quebec team sucked the Bruins are going to kill them , ummm Wrong!!!! We got slaughtered oops. It was like 7-2 . They went on to win the cup !!! It was so embarrassing
The tickets were cheap there too that season you could get in for under $20 . I refused to go again. There was no way I can root for a team with Patrick Roy on it , I hated that guy. I was cheering when he gave up 9 goals in that one game. He was the enemy .
Actually it seems as though being a fan is idiotic. I mean that year in Denver before they won the cup I could have gone to 40 hockey games cheap , just walking in off the street but I refused to go and how did I gain ?
Being a team fan is really stupid . It must be some sort of mental illness.
Believe the following if you will. We had a tenant,until he purchased a home, who served 6 stints in Afgan. He retired 3 years ago at the rank of Major. He told us furthering democracy there by the US has nothing to do with that war. Follow the $ was his message.
And then we,the U.S., are surprised when the countrymen "over there" fight for their country to reject our involvement. To let them follow their own destiny, right or wrong. We, the U.S. as a country would fight just as hard for our rights to run our country as we see fit were we to be invaded. Sometimes it looks like we fight these wars "over there" so we won't have to fight them "over here".